Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 05:52:53 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #167 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Thank you PG. Marinas (gatpuno@aol.com) 2. OMG! Knife Defense! (tom) 3. Pananandata/meaning (gatpuno@aol.com) 4. Gatpuno and kali (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #166 - 10 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 5. Re: RE: Kali Source (james jr. sy) 6. Re: Pigafetta translations on weaponry (james jr. sy) 7. Re: Another does of KALI (james jr. sy) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 08:05:27 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Thank you PG. Marinas Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Gatpuno, Your translation of the title is correct. However, taking the word "Larong Arnis" in context, "Knowledge in the Practice of Arnis" is more appropriate. My personal translation is "Skills Involved in the Practice of Arnis". Skills here includes both mental and physical. Sometimes, there are Tagalog words that will need one or more paragraphs of English to translate. Regards. APMarinas Sr. PG. Marinas, Your are right, the Tagalog is more complex Dialect. I translated that way as literally written. The other mening is "The Skills in Game Arnis". It also can be trraslated as " Those knowledge in a Game Arnis". I like it when I was being corrected in my own dialect, so next time I should be more carefull using suct translation. I know it change some meaning as you go to the deeper other Tagalog Speaker, but the point is well taken. I bet you other can translated other way, since the title is like a puzzle, that the answer is there but you have to translate it, analized it with your own way. Always have three sides, your view, my view and the author view. Thank you, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "tom" To: Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 07:38:50 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] OMG! Knife Defense! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bet this guys training partner had a headache after this session! LOL He does make some interesting points. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-uH93EQzKs --__--__-- Message: 3 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 09:11:28 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Pananandata/meaning Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net PG Marinas, Pananadata is Tagalog word that everyone used in Laguna. Meaning, the Way of how to used Wepons. Since you cpyright it, that make everyone used them is called copy cat? Just a question? Is that means "all" Eskrimador in other part of Luzon has to have permission from you to used or to call their arts? The word is older than you and me put together? That make everyone use term "copy" from you kind of thing?. Pananandata is the correct spelling. It is my family's system and it is a copyrighted name. "Pananandata" is what we called if we use weapons, "Pangangamay", is the techniques we used to strike the hand, "Pangungulo" is what we call if the practitioner is aim to strike to the head. "Panununtok" is athe art of Fist, "Paninipa" or "Paninikad" if we used Kicking, "Pambubuno" if we use the wrestling, "Pananalita" is the way of giving Speach. PG. Marinas is obvious your not the only one using this words. Just clarification.. Well, I was not going to us you this, until you said tha you copyright this, you have no ground to claim the words as yours, since everyone in Tagalog used the words. thank you, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com -----Original Message----- From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Sun, 27 May 2007 5:58 am Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #166 - 10 msgs Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Kalis and more (GatPuno@aol.com) 2. FMA System Names (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #164 - 13 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 3. FMA and Body Mechanics (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #164 - 13 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 4. Mga Karunungan Sa Larong Arnis (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #164 - 13 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 5. Dan Inosanto (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #165 - 3 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 6. Inosanto, Chicago School (gatpuno@aol.com) 7. Re: Chicago training (Kes41355@aol.com) 8. Re: The Ilonggo/Hiligaynon version of KALI (bgdebuque) -- __--__-- Message: 1 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 23:59:56 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kalis and more Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > It is common knowledge that Tagalog is the Philippines national language.  > There is the literary Tagalog that was used by Yambao in his book Mga > Karunungan > sa Larong Arnis. There is the everyday Tagalog heavy with modern words that > did  not exist when I was growing up in my village in Central Luzon. And > there > are  Tagalog words that are "local". > > In my village (about 2 hours north of Manila, in the town of Gapan that  > shares a boundary with Bulacan) there are "local" Tagalog words that would > not  be > understood by anybody outside the village. Hence, a person, say, living in  > Cavite (south of Manila) would not know if such a word exists. Therefore,  > because, the Caviteno might not have heard about the word, it does not  > necessarily mean that the word does not exist. By the same token, a  > Caviteno in a > certain barrio (village) may use "local" Tagalog words that I  would not > know > anything about. > > The word "kalis" oftentimes was used interchangeably with "gulok" by my two  > granduncles who raised me. They could not have read about the word because > they  couldn't read. They could not have learned it from their travels > because > they  never travelled outside the village. They could not have heard it > from  > travelling merchants because there was no such thing in my village. My two  > granduncles (who were brothers) were both born in the 1880s. One of them,  > Ingkong > Leon Marcelo taught me the pingga his version of the sibat (spear) which  he > used to fight the Spaniards. > > I am almost sure that among the many different dialects of the Philippines,  > there must also be "local" words not known outside a village. > > PG Marinas, What are you trying to say, "kali" exist somewhere in the Philippines? Well, okay let say it's exist, are you agreeing this is the original art of Arnis and Eskrima, the Mother of your arts and mine? Its true, I mentioned it before, in old Tagalog, we openly call"Kalis" as interchangable with 'TabaK, Gulok, and itak means all Bolo. In one line on our Passion Play, during the time when Longinus was struct of St, Peter "machete" in the line Jesus said, "Isalong mo Pedro and yaong kalis, sa kamay mo. (Peter put down your bolo from your hand). But it is not based upon to recieved and accept that this is the "MotherArt". I mentioned many time, called your art any name you want, but dont call it "mother" because is not. To whom it may concern, This is to make it clear also, that we are not questioning "Inosanto's book", I personally thanks Guro Inosanto for promoting the FMA. Its make it a lot easier for us to teach the arts, becaused it already have paved the way and educated thousand of Martial Arts enthusiast. I am not talking in particular book a nd style of "Kali". Remeber also "Gaje" uses Arnis before cahngin it to "Kali". It does not mean he is the pioneer or the one of the first who teach the FMA in the US. We the young generation Filipino just bow to the old man.. Not if we know is not true what they claiming. I also have big dis-aggreeing to the Master claimed that they faught, or they competed in Tournament and claimed to be the veterans, but the claimed cannot back it-up. Where is the place, who they faguht against, and who won? Seems like everyone now a days is called themselves the so called ""Undefeated" but you know what it make sense, everyone can call themselves "Undefeated" becaused they actually truth, they never faught therefore all of them is "Undefeated". Everytime, I read a book, and they telling me the detailed of his fight, and how he finish and bitten his opponent with such clear, detailed techniccal approach,, I called them good story teller. You know why unless you see yourself on the tape doing it. You cannot really remember what have happen on the day of your fight. I fought many times in street fight, tournament, and for my life. But if you ask me if I remember what happen, I cannot tell you this, probably I can only remember the biginning and the end of the fight, and give me few days, and I would not remember what happen then. Its sads, when a Master can tell you how many time he hit his opponent. Well, if he only hit him once or twice maybe but more than that, i have doubt the story already. Well, that was me.. I dont believed of what they claimed and said. I want to see it if they can back it up.. Walk the Talk, B$$$$t walk. Give me the the day, month, year, where in thePhilippines, of other places you fought, how many witness?. No everyone is claimed they are veterans fighter, but the claimed is only claimed until this is validated by witnesses, and records. Therefore, if you dont have records or witness I suggest keep your secret, secret. Now if you put on my plate, chances are I will eat it, and I guarantee probably not only me who will enjoy eating it on the plate.. Note: Walang lihim na di nabubunyag. (No secret, never get exposed).. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -- __--__-- Message: 2 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 06:14:00 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA System Names (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #164 - 13 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Marc, Pananandata is the correct spelling. It is my family's system and it is a copyrighted name. Since you seem genuinely interested in Filipino words, you might be interested in looking at my 2 books (co-authored with my son) when they get published (by Action Pursuit Group publishers of Inside Kungfu magazine, most likely 2008). One of the two books discusses in detail the origins of the names of the cuts/strikes/thrusts used in the FMA. If you become impatient and would like to see the detailed description of the cuts/strikes/thrusts sooner, drop a line or two to Editor Dave Cater. He might schedule its publication sooner although Dave is one very busy Editor. Dave had just finished working on my book (co-authored with my son) Pananandata The Guide to Balisong Openings. The book illustrates 69 openings. We teach/practice 169 openings. The book is scheduled for release in July 2007 (in about 10 weeks). Why so many openings? I have written an article on the reasons and had submitted it to Dave. Best. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/25/2007 9:29:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: This list of the names for FMA that I have collected during my journey: Arnis, Eskrima, Escrima, Esgrima, Kali, Pakamut, Pangamot, Panadata, Kalirongan, Didya, Kabaron, Pagkalikali, Sinawalli, Pangtusok, Macabebe, Kaliradman, Pagaradman, Estokada, Estoque, Fraile, Arnas de Mano, Arnis de Mano and Baston. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -- __--__-- Message: 3 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 06:28:21 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA and Body Mechanics (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #164 - 13 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Marc, Indeed our grandfathers understood body mechanics. They cut wood and wild edible plants with their bolos from when they were 6 years old. In my case, I did all the above and fished with the bolo from when I was in the 2nd grade. Our grandfathers had lots of practice. Best. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/25/2007 9:29:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: So they used their wisdom so solve the problems. Our Grandfathers understood body mechanics far better than most give them credit for. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -- __--__-- Message: 4 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 07:02:52 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Mga Karunungan Sa Larong Arnis (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #164 - 13 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Gatpuno, Your translation of the title is correct. However, taking the word "Larong Arnis" in context, "Knowledge in the Practice of Arnis" is more appropriate. My personal translation is "Skills Involved in the Practice of Arnis". Skills here includes both mental and physical. Sometimes, there are Tagalog words that will need one or more paragraphs of English to translate. Regards. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/25/2007 9:29:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: About the question what "Yambao's art, is clearly said it on the Title "Mga Karunungan ng Larung Arnis" (Knowledge's in Play Arnis). ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -- __--__-- Message: 5 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 08:04:56 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Dan Inosanto (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #165 - 3 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, I (and two of my students) went to the premises of Unique Publications in 1983 for the photoshoot for my book Arnis Lanada. After the photoshoot, Dan Inosanto picked us up from the hotel which was quite a distance from where he was and took us around the area and Venice Beach. He also took us to his school in Marina Del Rey which at the time was getting renovated. To top that, he took us to dinner. He was driving the van. He also gave all three of us signed copies of his books. (Much later, when I had a number of books published I asked one of my students who was originally from CA to give Dan Inosanto 4 books I had authored.) All I know about Dan Inosanto is that he is a very nice and generous person. Of course, he is well known for his martial arts skills and his dedication to the FMA. Regards. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/26/2007 7:22:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: ""FMA is dead in the philippines" (did Guro Inosanto say this? i read it somewhere) he is only telling what was told to him. he deserve respect as an elder in the FMA community, i dont believe many of us will have as many students as we do today if it wasnt for his work for the FMA arts. at the same time, its not fair to blame him for all the begative stuff we see today. but a lot of it came from him, and its not fair to act like it didnt." My office is about to be redone and my books are packed away, so I am working from memory here, but IIRC what he said was "If what they say is true then FMA is dying in the Philippines". In other words HE didn't say it. I think if you take the time to look you will discover that most if not all of the statements attributed to him are clearly him quoting someone else-- so until one goes and looks it up and brings a specific example to the table the , , , ahem , , , "fair" thing to do is not say that he did. TAC, CD ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -- __--__-- Message: 6 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 10:55:09 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Inosanto, Chicago School Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Marc Denny, First of all, thank you for the nice gesture DVD. Nicely done and lots of good info. May I asked where did you read this info. On May 1997, I wrote an article in Inside Kung Fu. In title Arnis de Mano Dead in the Philippines? Contrary to what Billy Bryant article "FMA is dead in the Philippines and the new home for Eskrimador is America. But I dont want to jump to the conclusion that you read the same article I wrote, I also mentioned there the fact of the Arnis is well praticed in the Philippines. I also memntioned that you cant expect everyone is practicing Arnis in the Philippines. Even in japan, not everybody practice "Karate" or "Jutisu", not all in "Korea" practiced Tae Kwon Do, it make sense only not all Filipino practice Arnis, Eskrima or Kali for that matter. I have mentioned I have atmost respect for "Guro Inosanto" I have many times show gratitude for his Pioneering the PMA. Its make it easy ofr us to go out there and promote our own version of the FMA. I have not read anyone saying that Guro Inosanto is saying that FMA is Dead in the Philippines. Its so obvious not, becaused the Canetes is well known practicing the arts and other masters. My family is practiced the arts up to now over there, so I assume that Guro Inosanto would say anything on those term. I agree with you with all count, that we are should be more thankfull to him. I have to give that to him. He earned it and he live with it. Thank you for bringgin it up though. If anything I am the first one to contradict that post, or article if I ever read it. To the person looking for Chicago FMA, Search for the BARABAY, Group, promoting Inosato Kali, LAMECO and Garimot Arnis. Email: Guro Mike Eugenio at ekim60618@yahoo.com or visit www.sagasa.com. He also teach in Dragenberg place once in a while. The group is nice and friendly. See Guro Eugene Amante, Guro Dennis Duria, Guro Mike Albandia. Either one of them can help you. Their in the same group. Guro Dennis Duria Teaches also the Herman Suwands Arts. Off-course you can check my brother in the arts. Maha Guro Nate Defensor of Defnsor method, he teaches, Serrad, Pikiti-Tirsia, Silat and more. Here is Mike Eugenio School Elite Martial Arts & Fitness 4003 Golf Road Skokie, IL 60076 773.318.8525 Guro March Denny, again thank you, if you are refering to my article, I am sorry but I dont see anything here I mentioned Guro Inosanto. I have the article on my desk. Hope is not my article.. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com Woof All: ""FMA is dead in the philippines" (did Guro Inosanto say this? i read it somewhere) he is only telling what was told to him. he deserve respect as an elder in the FMA community, i dont believe many of us will have as many students as we do today if it wasnt for his work for the FMA arts. at the same time, its not fair to blame him for all the begative stuff we see today. but a lot of it came from him, and its not fair to act like it didnt." My office is about to be redone and my books are packed away, so I am working from memory here, but IIRC what he said was "If what they say is true then FMA is dying in the Philippines". In other words HE didn't say it. I think if you take the time to look you will discover that most if not all of the statements attributed to him are clearly him quoting someone else-- so until one goes and looks it up and brings a specific example to the table the , , , ahem , , , "fair" thing to do is not say that he did. TAC, CD -- __--__-- Message: 3 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 19:39:55 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] just the blade Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > ... when he says KALI is the mother art he doesn't mean it is the > progenitor but a term that was used to encompass the totality of the art. > Escrima and Arnis are Spanish terms and are often used to just encompass > stick fighting or stick and knife fighting. There is lots more to FMA then > just that part of the art, ... I suspect there may be a few, but I have yet to see an eskrima or arnis school that only teaches the stick, knife and sword. True, the blade is often the first priority, but then it should be, imho. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com -- __--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. -- __--__-- Message: 7 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 16:21:17 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Chicago training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I second Ray's recommendation here. I remember Nate from the old days (1980's) at Degerberg's, lo those many years ago. Nate is very knowledgeable, and has an impressive lineage. Kim Satterfield In a message dated 5/26/2007 7:21:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > I have a friend that is moving to Chicago next month. Does anyone know > any schools or instructors to train with in the Chicago ares? Check out Nate Defensor. http://www.defensormethod.com/ Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -- __--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 19:52:02 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Ilonggo/Hiligaynon version of KALI Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Interesting... In Ilonggo or Hiligaynon, "Kali" is also "to dig up something" [i.e. it is a VERB].... This, to "dig up Kamote (Visayan Sweet Potato)" in Ilonggo is: "magKALI sang kamote"... To "dig up peanuts" is: "magKALI sang mani"... This is not too far from the "man-made ditch" meaning of "KALI" in the Indonesian and Malaysian language... The only difference is that it is used as a NOUN [i.e. the end product of human digging instead of the act of digging itself]... >Message: 7 >Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:33:16 -0700 (PDT) >From: Daniel Arola >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali the mystery term >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Kali(as it is pronounced), in the Ilocano dialect means to "dig". >It's still only a word to me. Not some "proclaimed" word of authority to fuss over. The word is here >now and we use it today. >I use it, because I DIG IT('not because I'm i-loco). >-Daniel -- __--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. =0 --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 09:15:26 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Gatpuno and kali (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #166 - 10 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Gatpuno, If you read my first mention of kali in ED, there was reference only to the meaning of the word. Unfortunately, some EDers got all mixed up and read into my letter things that are not even in it. There was only reference to my interpretation of the origin of the word. EDers should read it again. The passion play in my barrio is called "arakyo". Arakyo, from the standpoint of word construction is a strange one. It is a "local" village word. Nobody knew what it meant outside my village. The first two letters "ar" are from the word "arnis". Arakyo is jokingly referred to as "aray ko" meaning "Ouch! I'm hit." The word transformation is a result of the switch of the positions of the "k" and the "y". Arakyo is staged during the barrio fiesta right around the middle of March which at the time I was growing up was the end of the rice harvest season. The fiesta is at the same time a tribute to San Roque my village's patron Saint and a celebration (two days of thanks) of the end of the harvest season when there was plenty of rice to go around. There was plenty of sword play in the stage drama where the words are said in sentences of rhythm not unlike the "bolos" used by kathak dancers of India. Hence, there were occasions when the cuts and thrusts got out of control particularly during rehearsals. That should explain the "Ouch!". The leading lady (the village's best singer) was my neighbor and her father was the keeper of the script for the passion play. As far as I know, there was no other copy of the script. Now, as for the word "mother", I would use it if I am quoting another written piece but not to identify an art as the original. Best. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/27/2007 7:16:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: What are you trying to say, "kali" exist somewhere in the Philippines? Well, okay let say it's exist, are you agreeing this is the original art of Arnis and Eskrima, the Mother of your arts and mine? Its true, I mentioned it before, in old Tagalog, we openly call"Kalis" as interchangable with 'TabaK, Gulok, and itak means all Bolo. In one line on our Passion Play, during the time when Longinus was struct of St, Peter "machete" in the line Jesus said, "Isalong mo Pedro and yaong kalis, sa kamay mo. (Peter put down your bolo from your hand). But it is not based upon to recieved and accept that this is the "MotherArt". I mentioned many time, called your art any name you want, but dont call it "mother" because is not. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:19:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Kali Source To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From what I understood in your two previous posts: 1. Guru Mushtaq Ali al Ansari was trained in the Kris and knife by a successful merchant family in Jolo from the time he was able to hold them. 2. He and his wife immigrated to the US before WWII. 3. He training in "Kali" in Northern California in the early '60s under Guru Julaluddin Abdalsalaam and his son Rasheed. 4. Guru Julaluddin Abdalsalaam would alternately called it Kali, Silat, Kuntao and a few other names that don't immediately come to mind yet. Did I get it right? Regards. JAMES "Van Harn, Steve" wrote: From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Kali source. It would be a great help if you can provide the name of your Guru and his lineage. For sure, the older generation in the States would know him. JAMES "Van Harn, Steve" wrote: Just to add a small bit to this discussion, my Guru was training in "Kali" in Northern California long before Inosanto's book ever came out. We discussed this over the weekend. His Guru would alternately call it Kali, Silat, Kuntao and a few other names that don't immediately come to mind yet. This would be the very early '60s and his Guru never trained anyone but his son and my Guru and did not "mix" with any other Guros in the States. My point is, any name references he used would have came over with him from Jolo in the late '30s._______________________________________________ Reply: Well, it is highly unlikely but I suppose possible. My understanding is he did not get around much. My Guru's name is Mushtaq Ali al Ansari and he trained in his teens with Guru Julaluddin Abdalsalaam and his son Rasheed. Guru (our honorific, no titles back then) Abdaldalaam emigrated with his wife to the United States before WWII (which by serving in obtained his citizenship). He was raised by a successful merchant family in Jolo and was trained the Kris and knife essentially from the time he was able to hold them. Steve _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:30:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Pigafetta translations on weaponry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Ric, You are correct, no translation can be as good as the original. I myself could attest to the burden of translating one language to another. I speak &/or understand English, Tagalog, Ilonggo, Cebuano, Fukien, and some Mandarin, Spanish, and Nihonggo Your concern was that there could be mis-translation of the chronicle. Yes, my post mentioned a number of weapons such as the kampilan but my point there ultimately was Antonio Pigafetta did not record/mention Kali. If we accept Kali as a proper noun, then it will not be affected by translation. BTW, I used a translation, actually several translations. Better proofs than nothing at all. :p God bless. JAMES Federico Malibago wrote: Ok, I realize not everyone on the list is a historian, but just wanted to point out that there needs to be alot of care when looking at translated works for evidence. As anyone who knows or speaks more than one language, they know that translation is often more an artform than a hard replacement of foreign words with familiar words. So when a translator comes to a word or phrase that may be un-common or untranslatable in the language they are trying to translate to, then often they have to bridge the gap, so to speak, with their own knowledge of the culture and the manner in which they think the word is being used. This is very much a component in reading, particularly English translations of Pigafettas work. As I am sure many have experienced reading different translations of his work, many have probably noticed that depending on the translator, different words were used. Furthermore, there were a number of original publications/editions of his work when he originally published them, that contained different versions of the story (some more slight than others) depending on which audience he was trying to reach (e.g. writing an official account for a king vs a more mass publication for people). So unless you have an original copy of his work, you cannot definitively say one way or the other that this word is this or that. Even if you had an original, there may still be discrepencies between which version you have, was it written for a king or for mass publication, etc... So when there is a conflict in secondary material (e.g. translations or interpretations) usually the norm is to look at the primary material (e.g. the untranslated work), which of course is difficult for those of us with limited access to such material or who cannot read the original untranslated text (the period untranslated text). I guess this isnt a big deal, but it is something to be aware of. Are you pinning your argument on the real work, or a translators interpretation? Gumagalang Federico Malibago _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:21:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Another does of KALI To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bgdebuque wrote: "Arnes" is already Tagalog. "Harnes" is I think is the original Spanish word. In the same way that the Ilonggo word "Yudipuga" is no longer Spanish... =[:->]” The dictionaries say otherwise. The Diccionario Español-Ingles Ingles-Español by Carlos Castillo and Otto F. Bond Arnes n. - Harness; coat of mail. Living Language Spanish Dictionary by Dr. Irwin Stern Harness n. - aparejo, arnes. Talatinigang Pilipino-Pilipino (2007 Reprint) by Bartolome del Valle and Melania Jimenez Bartolome del Valle Arnis - Istokada, paglalaban sa pamamagitan ng sable o baston. Arnes is Español. Arnis is the Tagalog/Filipino corruption of the Spanish word. Harness is the English equivalent. Yes, yudipuga is the Ilonggo corruption of the Spanish hijo de puta (SOB). ------ Bgdebuque wrote: “I have never said that there was. The whole premise of my argument is that if Shaolin Kung Fu probably came from Kalaripayattu according to Discovery Channel, it is highly probable that the FMA could have come from the Same source because there exists cultural threads which links present-day Filipino culture with the culture of present-day residents of Kerala in India. Of course, subliminally, I was trying to insinuate that the roots of the FMA is just as old as Shaolin Kung Fu.... =[:->]” You have forwarded a hypothesis, that is, something yet to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Discovery Channel itself thinks “Shaolin Kung Fu probably came from Kalaripayattu,” another hypothesis at best. In a previous post I’ve made, I’ve cited several facts that have disprove that Bodhidharma was the founder of Shaolin martial arts. Your hypothesis is that it could be possible that FMA could have come from IMA “because there exists cultural threads which links present-day Filipino culture with the culture of present-day residents of Kerala in India.” If we take this argument, we might as well say that FMA is Chinese or influenced by the Chinese because the Chinese culture is more embedded in Filipino culture than the Indian influences. Numerically speaking, there are more Chinese in the Philippines than Indians (the latest figure says the Chinese comprise 1.5% of the Philippines and the Indians, who were not mentioned, must be included in the “others.”). We have Chinese revolts in Philippine history. Ever heard of an Indian revolt? It is documented fact that the Chinese arts had found their way into the Filipino warrior arts. But there was never a claim that FMA came from CMA. ------ Bgdebuque wrote: “BTW "Kali" in Indonesian also means "repetition". If the term "laro" in Florante at Laura pertains to "practice", the basis of any form of "practice" is the "repetition" of movements.” Florante at Laura by Francisco Balagtas - 1831 - First record of Arnis. Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis by Placido Yambao - 1957 - First Record of Kali. How can you refute this fact in defense that Kali is the original term for FMA? Simple question requiring simple answer. ------ Bgdebuque wrote: “We cannot eliminate the Malay MA Silat Connection. As I have indicated in my previous post, the Southeast Asian progression of Indian-based MA could have been Indian MA - Malay MA - Filipino MA.” “If we accept Kerala as the origin of the Indian MA then, originally, it is either Hindu and/or Buddhist. When it arrived in Indonesia, it is still Hindu and/or Buddhist. It became Muslim in Indonesia and Malaysia when its practitioners there converted to Islam. It became Christian in Central and Northern Philippines when its practitioners there converted to Christianity. It is still Hindu in Bali until now.” The very simple issue at hand is, what is the REAL meaning and origin of the TERM Kali? Various definitions had already been forwarded, from Cebuano, Muslim, Indonesian, Indian, and all other absurd definitions. We all know Guro Inosanto had always adhered to the kamot lihok deifinition. Why not a unified answer, based on concrete prima facie evidence, that does not go around the bush, that will shed light to the issue on hand, rather than adding to the mess? ------ Bgdebuque wrote: “In Indonesian, "Kali" means "repetition". Let's say you want somebody to execute Strike "No. 3! 3 Times!". You would say that in Indonesian as "Nomor Tiga! Tiga KALI!" “In any form of martial arts practice conducted in the Indonesian language, therefore, you will always hear the word "KALI" continuously. Or, just incase you can speak Indonesian: "Pasti Mas kamu akan mendengar kata "KALI" berKALI-KALI!"” “I hope that answers your questions.... =[:->]” Not just because there’s an Indonesian word Kali which means "repetition," you can already associate it with Kali the supposed Mother Art of all FMA. This is simply an amateur attempt at linguistics. Yap, the Philippine Pencak Silat Association (Philsilat), the recognized governing body for the art in the Philippines, taught us how to count in Indonesian but the teachers never said we were doing Kali the supposed Mother Art of all FMA. You are fond of making your own interpretations (i.e. play, repetition) and associations (i.e. IMA to Shaolin, IMA to FMA, etc.), all of which do not constitute academically acceptable proofs and will primarily fall under conjecture/speculation. What is your historical, archaeological, literary, anthropological, hoplological, etc. evidences to support your conjecture/speculation? Your post did not answer my question, which I repost below: >One simple question: What does Kali mean? >Why so many unclear, vague, speculative, and confusing explanations? >A simple question deserves a simple answer. Not a truckload of chopsuey conjecture passed off >as history. >What is Arnes/Arnis? Harness of the hand. >What is Escrima? Fencing. End of story. Times changed. Thanx to IT it’s now easier to debunk dubious claims. bgdebuque wrote: If that Anybody can also show that, sometime in their history, Croatians, Estonians and Greeks were short brown-skinned men, spoke a Sanskrit-based language, wore Sarongs, have a stick-based martial art style, and were believers in Buddhism and/or Hinduism, then I will have no choice but to agree with that Anybody.... =[:->] > > Another example? Anybody could just say Kali started in Croatia, Estonia, > and Greece because there are places called KALI there. Why not Cali, Colombia? California just buys from them... =[:->] Another would say, "don't you see, KALI was started in Kalifornia because > you have the largest concentration of Filipinos there." "Arnes" is already Tagalog. "Harnes" is I think is the original Spanish word. In the same way that the Ilonggo word "Yudipuga" is no longer Spanish... =[:->] wonder how you would dispute the following, as you've discussed them in your > last post: > > Arnes is Spanish, not Tagalog. I have never said that there was. The whole premise of my argument is that if Shaolin Kung Fu probably came from Kalaripayattu according to Discovery Channel, it is highly probable that the FMA could have come from the same source because there exists cultural threads which links present-day Filipino culture with the culture of present-day residents of Kerala in India. Of course, subliminally, I was trying to insinuate that the roots of the FMA is just as old as Shaolin Kung Fu.... =[:->] There is no Kali (the FMA) in Kerala, only Kalaripayattu. I accepted Aby Paul's explanation because it made sense in the context of the cultural threads I am trying to point out. BTW "Kali" in Indonesian also means "repetition". If the term "laro" in Florante at Laura pertains to "practice", the basis of any form of "practice" is the "repetition" of movements. Your use of play only started when Aby Paul pointed out to you that the > "Kali" in the martial arts-inspired dances you mentioned means "play." We cannot eliminate the Malay MA Silat Connection. As I have indicated in my previous post, the Southeast Asian progression of Indian-based MA could have been Indian MA - Malay MA - Filipino MA. If we accept Kerala as the origin of the Indian MA then, originally, it is either Hindu and/or Buddhist. When it arrived in Indonesia, it is still Hindu and/or Buddhist. It became Muslim in Indonesia and Malaysia when its practitioners there converted to Islam. It became Christian in Central and Northern Philippines when its practitioners there converted to Christianity. It is still Hindu in Bali until now. >Presuming you get to connect all 3, what is your take on the claim that Kali is Muslim? By >your mere association of Kali to Kalaripayattu, you have implied that Kali is Hindu. >If you dismiss the Muslim angle, then you have just eliminated the Kali and Silat connection, >which would prove many claimants to be wrong. In Indonesian, "Kali" means "repetition". Let's say you want somebody to execute Strike "No. 3! 3 Times!". You would say that in Indonesian as "Nomor Tiga! Tiga KALI!" In any form of martial arts practice conducted in the Indonesian language, therefore, you will always hear the word "KALI" continuously. Or, just incase you can speak Indonesian: "Pasti Mas kamu akan mendengar kata "KALI" berKALI-KALI!" I hope that answers your questions.... =[:->] >One simple question: What does Kali mean? >Why so many unclear, vague, speculative, and confusing explanations? >A simple question deserves a simple answer. Not a truckload of chopsuey conjecture passed off >as history. >What is Arnes/Arnis? Harness of the hand. >What is Escrima? Fencing. End of story. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. 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