Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 05:58:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #168 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Kali - Indonesian Term (james jr. sy) 2. Re: Another Indian connection... (james jr. sy) 3. Re: Kali - Indonesian Term ? (james jr. sy) 4. Re: Kali term (james jr. sy) 5. Re: Kali Term (james jr. sy) 6. Re: Kali the mystery term (james jr. sy) 7. Re: Can't see the Kali tree for the Kali forest? (james jr. sy) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:23:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - Indonesian Term To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Quote: “In my personal oppinion the art is not described by a name or simple word. More by movement and action.” What’s in a name? If we accept the logic that it’s just a name, then why would a Muslim find it offensive to be called Moros? then why would a black man find it offensive to be called Negro? then why is it improper for a Chinese to call a helper huanapo? The name of your art tells others who you are. Yaw Yan…footboxing, great kicks. Tapado…hard core long stick fighting. Kalis Ilustrisimo…blade fighting. A son who grows with a father, associates himself with that name. A son who grows without a father is a bastard. The child uses the name as a role model. JAMES Arndt Mallepree wrote: According to my Guro Dan Inosanto the word Kali is a combination of the words Kamot Lihot - move of the hand. (Please excuse if wrong spelled!) That is what he personally told me! In my personal oppinion the art is not described by a name or simple word. More by movement and action. But every individual has his own look on things and that should be respected. Stay save and train save Arndt Mallepree "Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is specifically your own!" Bruce Lee www.ifcm.de ----- Original Message ----- From: "james jr. sy" To: Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - Indonesian Term > Sure, Kali means everything. Better go check Europe, there's also Kali > there or maybe the Arctic. :) > > The more you add to the Kali confusion, the easier it is to prove that it > is not what it is claimed to be. > > Good luck on the witchhunt > > > bgdebuque wrote: > In terms of day-to-day use, Indonesians use "kali" to refer to a big > manmade > ditch. A smaller manmade ditch will normally be referred to as a "parit". > The preferred term for a river is "sungai". > > There is another meaning for "kali" which might be more appropriate for > the > martial arts - number of repetitions. > > Thus "sekali" would be "1 repetition" or "once". "Dua kali" would be "2 > repetitions" or "2 times". "Tiga kali" would be "3 repetitions" or "3 > times". > > "Beberapa kali" would be "many times". "Berkali-kali" would be > "continuously". > > Still, there is another meaning for "kali". In Indonesian math lingo, > "kali" means "times" or "multiplied by". Thus, "satu kali dua" > would mean "one times two" or "one multiplied by two" or simply "1 x 2". > > > -- __--__-- > > > > > <"An English - Indonesian Dictionary" by John M. Echols and Hassan Shadily > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Based upon natural law > > --- Formless and shapeless so it can assume any form or shape to serve > its purpose > > --- Seeks the path of least resistance > > --- Supports, nutures and protectslife > > --- Can take a life > > --- Moves in straight or curved lines in accordance withwhat is needed > to continue to flow > > --- The curved Kris swordshape reflects the characteristics of a river > and this sword seemsto bea favorite symbol in both Kali and > Eskrima arts. > > --- All rivers are feed into by multiple streams (meaning many influances > contribute to its whole) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > > > > --------------------------------- > Finding fabulous fares is fun. > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and > hotel bargains. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:25:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Another Indian connection... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net bgdebuque wrote: “I'm sorry James, but the largest English-speaking nation in the world would be India... 2nd is the US, 3rd is Pakistan, 4th is the Philippines, the UK would only be the 5th... =[:->]” Americans, Britons, what do you have to say to that? What is the basis of your stats? If you think that since India is the second most populous nation in the world (China is the first) it follows that it is also the largest English speaking country in the world, then you are wrong. Not all of India speaks English. The 25-year old Teletech, one of the largest global provider of onshore, offshore, and work-from-home business process outsourcing (BPO), has a presence in 17 countries in 4 continents. It has 8 centers in the Philippines. How many in India? ------ bgdebuque wrote: “The main reason why it is very hard for modern-day Filipinos to define Their national identity is that they often fail or refuse to recognize the Fact that modern Filipino culture has actually 4 pillar cultures - Malay, Spanish, American and Chinese:”” bgdebuque wrote: “…because present-day Malay culture has not reached the same heights as the Malay empires of old - SriVisaya and Madjapahit.” I asked you: “Why can you say that? Are you Malay? Have you lived in the Philippines? Just curious. Such statement must have a basis.” You wrote: “Let's just say I belong to the generation whose textbooks in Elementary School included the book "Jose Rizal: Pride of the Malay Race". I Was also forced to read in school Quirino's award-winning book: "Jose Rizal: The Great Malayan".... =[:->]” First you criticize modern-day Filipinos. Then you imply you’re Filipino. Hmmm Nevertheless, whether you’re Filipino or not, you have no right to criticize a culture that is older than you, much less rewrite its martial arts history. And while we are at it, you ignored my other points on the errors of what you previously wrote: 1. Although the Spaniards introduced the Roman Catholic to the Philippines, the faith is not Spanish in origin. 2. The Philippine Political System differs from that of the US, which is Federal in nature. 3. You can’t generalize Filipino Music as primarily American because the industry has an abundance of Original Filipino Music (OPM), not to mention modern regional novelty songs from the Ilonggos, Cebuanos, etc. 4. The Chinese heritage has been with the Filipinos even before the Spaniards. “The effort of prominent Filipinos like Dan Inosanto to reach back to Our Malay heritage is, therefore, a truly admirable endeavor - and should not be wrongly construed as an effort to emphasize the ascendance of Malay-named FMA styles over those which have Hispanized or Americanized names ("FMA" itself is an Americanized term).” And 99.99% of the FMAers in the Philippines, the birthplace of FMA, does nothing to “reach back to Our Malay heritage” just because they use the Spanish terms Arnis and Escrima. The American term FMA have not claimed to be the 1. Mother Art of all FMA 2. Original, purest, and most complete art 3. Blade based 4. Fill in with other ridiculous claims Unlike Kali which goes with all the above claims. The contributions of Guro Inosanto, right from the start was never questioned, nor was his integrity. The Filipinos have nothing against the use of the term Kali. That is well for branding purposes. What is nauseating is how the history of the FMA is being twisted, perverted, romanticized, and what else you have to the extent of degrading the Filipino dignity. Now tell me… Would you call it respect when a foreigner who haven’t gone to the Philippines lecture a Filipino who had lived in the Philippines since birth in the internet that the Mother Art of his homeland is Kali? Isn’t it a slap on the face of every Filipino? A foreigner who knows more about Philippine history than a native born Filipino? Filipinos must be that dumb, eh? (that I would not believe for the Philippines is the 4th most literate country in Asia - latest data). Would you dare tell a Filipino grandmaster in the Philippines that his Arnis is just a stick-based art which is a watered down version of your all encompassing Mother Art? In the Philippines, there is only one way to find out. Would you dare tell a Filipino grandmaster in the Philippines that FMA is dead in the Philippines? In the Philippines, there is only one way to show that FMA is not dead. Would you dare tell a Filipino grandmaster in the Philippines that his art came from India or Indonesia? Would you dare tell a Filipino Silat grandmaster in the Philippines that his art is related to Kali or much less related to non-Muslims? Filipinos had always been dominated by the “superpowers.” Third world our country may be but our ancestors give their lives to this nation to put the Philippines where it is right now. Don’t insult the intellect of the Filipino people. You have no right. Ponder on this, please. bgdebuque wrote: I'm sorry James, but the largest English-speaking nation in the world would be India... 2nd is the US, 3rd is Pakistan, 4th is the Philippines, the UK would only be the 5th... =[:->] >The Philippines is the 3rd largest English speaking nation in the world next to the USA and GB. Let's just say I belong to the generation whose textbooks in Elementary School included the book "Jose Rizal: Pride of the Malay Race". I was also forced to read in school Quirino's award-winning book: "Jose Rizal: The Great Malayan".... =[:->] >Why can you say that? Are you Malay? Have you lived in the Philippines? Just curious. Such >statement must have a basis. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:26:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - Indonesian Term ? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It has already been established that: GM Antonio Ilustrisimo (Escrima) ->GM Floro Villabrille (Kali) -->GM Ben Largusa & GM Daniel Inosanto (Kali) The official explanation from this lineage of Kali is indeed the Cebuano words kamot “hand” and lihok “movement/motion” no doubt about it. Regards. JAMES Mark Harrell wrote: Guro Inosanto probably got that particular definition of Kali from GM Ben Largusa who has used that Kamut Lihok definition for many years. Another term I think Guro Inosanto has used is Kalis. Mark ****************************************************************** Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - Indonesian Term > According to my Guro Dan Inosanto the word Kali is a combination of the > words Kamot Lihot - move of the hand. (Please excuse if wrong spelled!) > That is what he personally told me! >>Did he cite a source? >>Ray Terry ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:27:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali term To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mark wrote: “Anyone attempting to define the term Kali does not add to the confusion, rather they contribute to the movement in the direction of clarity or at least in the direction of investigation and further research. I continue to enjoy the many posts that offer real clarity of language use and written documentation of any kind.” I previously wrote: “The more you add to the Kali confusion, the easier it is to prove that it is not what it is claimed to be. ” I was directing the reply to bgdebuque, not to you but since you opened it up, let me point out some things. You wrote: “An English - Indonesian Dictionary" by John M. Echols and Hassan Shadily… Look under the term: RIVER” “You will find several terms listed for RIVER but one will be the term, KALI.” “Just look at the chacteristics of a RIVER: --- Based upon natural law --- Formless and shapeless so it can assume any form or shape to serve its purpose --- Seeks the path of least resistance --- Supports, nutures and protects life --- Can take a life --- Moves in straight or curved lines in accordance with what is needed to continue to flow --- The curved Kris sword shape reflects the characteristics of a river and this sword seems to be a favorite symbol in both Kali and Eskrima arts. --- All rivers are feed into by multiple streams (meaning many influences contribute to its whole) Etc, etc, etc... You get the idea...” “Guro Inosanto probably got that particular definition of Kali from GM Ben Largusa who has used that Kamut Lihok definition for many years. Another term I think Guro Inosanto has used is Kalis.” It’s clear that GM Inosanto explained Kali as kamot and lihok. Now, you went to the dictionary and found that Kali refers to a river. You try to associate the Chinese teachings on the characteristics of water (which was taught in Bruce Lee’s JKD and much earlier in Tai Chi Chuan and the other traditional Chinese Martial Arts) because a river has water in it. But then the dictionary says river and mentions no FMA. Is your interpretation officially authorized by Guro Inosanto? If no, don’t you think his reputation will be put to question with your interpretation of Kali? Wouldn’t this add to the confusion? Would this contribute to the movement in the direction of clarity? I agree with you that “NOT all groups who choose to use the term Kali have made the claims.” Can you please specify the groups that have not made these claims? Or more importantly, the specific groups that have made such claims? “Intelligently researched and presented information” would not only refer to one’s reference but also the right use or interpretations of these materials. Universally accepted procedure of research involves the meticulous choice of references and solid proof. Since Kali is supposed to be an ANCIENT MOTHER ART in pre-Hispanic Philippines why can’t Filipino historians, scholars, anthropologists (like Prof. Jocano of UP), linguists, archaeologists, and researchers produce any evidence to support such claims? If it is indeed Muslim or Hindu, why can’t we find it in ancient Muslim or Hindu records? These insights/questions will definitely need “intelligently researched and presented information” based on prima facie evidence, not just mere conjecture/speculation. Peace be with you. JAMES Mark Harrell wrote: Anyone attempting to define the term Kali does not add to the confusion, rather they contribute to the movement in the direction of clarity or at least in the direction of investigation and further research. I continue to enjoy the many posts that offer real clarity of language use and written documentation of any kind. I think the real issue with the term Kali is that many people do not like "claims" made by certain groups. However, please keep in mind the fact that NOT all groups who choose to use the term Kali have made the claims that many find offensive or untrue in their minds. I am interested in intelligently researched and presented information that provides information and resources so that I can further my education on the subject and make up my on mind. Peace be with you, Mark **************************************************************** >>Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 05:35:25 -0700 (PDT) >>From: "james jr. sy" >>Subject: Re: Kali - Indonesian Term >>Sure, Kali means everything. Better go check Europe, there's also Kali there or >>maybe the Arctic. :) >>The more you add to the Kali confusion, the easier it is to prove that it is >>not what it is claimed to be. >>Good luck on the witchhunt ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:28:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Term To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mark wrote: “The question that I bring up in my previous post is that perhaps Kali has roots that are not Filipino in origin. This may be in part why there seems to be a shortage of evidance to the origin of Kali in the Philippines and almost no support for the use of the term in the Philippines.” I belive in the honesty of GM Inosanto. His teacher GM Villabrille used Kali as in kamot lihok. He honored his teacher by using and popularizing the term. GM Villabrille was from Cebu and learned Escrima from his uncle GM Antonio Ilustrisimo. His certificate reads Escrima, not Kali. But for one reason or the other he started using the term Kali in the 1950s. This is documented and undisputed fact. If you presume that Kali is Muslim (as per Silat connection) or Hindu (as per Kalaripayattu connection), I want to ask 10 simple questions as a starter: 1. Was GM Villabrille Muslim or Hindu? 2. Did GM Villabrille know Silat or Kalaripayattu? 3. If indeed the Kali that GM Villabrille taught was from Silat or Kalaripayattu, shouldn’t be the art called Indonesian or Indian Martial Art instead of FMA? 4. If indeed Kali is Muslim, why would it use Cebuano terminology when the Visayans were/are the mortal enemies of Muslims? 5. If indeed Kali is Hindu, why would it use Cebuano terminology instead of Sanskrit? 6. If indeed Kali is Muslim, why don’t we have Kali practitioners pray 5 times a day? 7. If indeed Kali is Hindu, why don’t we find any historical records of Kali the FMA in India? All we find are religious reference to the Hindu Goddess of Destruction, which has nothing to do with Kali the Mother Art of the Philippines. 8. If indeed Kali is related to Silat, why don’t we find any historical records of Kali the FMA in Indonesia or Malaysia? 9. If indeed Kali is related to Silat, why don’t Silat masters in Southern Philippines recognize Kali? 10. What hard/concrete/verifiable/credible/historical/archaeological proof can be forwarded to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Kali is indeed Hindu or Muslim? “Of particular interest to me is the simularity of how Indonesian Pentjak Silat Jurus and Langkahs are taught and expressed which I find to be simular to how some systems of Kali are taught and expressed.” I also like the sini and jurus but Pencak Silat starts with empty hands practice then proceeds to weapons such as the blade and staff while “Kali” starts with weapons then empty hands. This alone shows a difference in the approach to training. These are just very basic points which you can ponder on to further your research on Kali. God bless. JAMES Mark Harrell wrote: Hello James, The question that I bring up in my previous post is that perhaps Kali has roots that are not Filipino in origin. This may be in part why there seems to be a shortage of evidance to the origin of Kali in the Philippines and almost no support for the use of the term in the Philippines. The other interesting point mentioned was that the term describes the nature and characteristics of the art. This is pretty common practice in South East Asia. Thank you for the humor about the death matches or challenges... : ) Peace be with you, Mark ********************************************************************** >>Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 05:14:37 -0700 (PDT) >>From: "james jr. sy" >>Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - Indonesian Term >>To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >>Hi Mark, >>The "An English - Indonesian Dictionary" lists River “Kali,” not FMA “Kali.” >>There is indeed a river in India called Kali. The Kali river is just that, a >>river, and not a martial art. >>The characteristics of water that were explained are the same as those written >>by Bruce Lee in his JKD books and taught by the Chinese in Taosim for thousands >>of years. >>The wavy design of the kris is for better slicing more than anything else. >> Don’t worry Mark, if somebody challenges you, you have the privilege of >>dictating that the fight be done in a river (just make sure your challenger >>doesn’t know how to swim hehehe see how a Filipino thinks?) :p Just joking. >>Be sure too that there’s no fair maiden bathing in the river least you fight >>over her instead of the challenge J >>JAMES ------------------------------------------------------------------------ More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:32:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali the mystery term To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Mark, You would have known by now that Filipinos are very peace loving people. They always make pakisama (Tagalog “live along”) with other people. But it is within the Filipino culture to protect what is dear to them, that includes their honor and the dignity of their culture, history, etc. Gat Puno Abon is always a Filipino at heart, as I am. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet is a warrior in every sense of the word, having been an undefeated in no-armor stickfighing in Laguna (1978-1958). In the Philippines, it is customary to resolve arguments physically to erase any doubt. So it comes to no surprise when his wordings become stronger to emphasize his point. I do believe it is not the intention of the grandmaster to threaten you as long as the line of respect is not breached. At least, you have made it clear that you believe that: 1. Kali is not Filipino. 2. Kali is not necessarily what it claims to be. I for one will agree with you that older is not necessarily better. But as far as the issue on older, mother art or more authentic is concerned, for me it is historical rather than subjective. Historical in the sense that we can find the truth via prima facie evidence rather than as an opinion. Quote: “Does anyone know why some of the older generation of Filipinos who came to America many years ago used the term Kali? Why would someone start to use a term that may not have been in use or in common use? It has already been documented that the use of the term Kali in the USA started with GM Villabrille. The majority of the grandmasters listed in GM Inosanto’s book used Escrima. Quote: “What names pre-date the use of the Spanish terms, Escrima and Arnis to describe the native martial arts of the Philippines before the influence of the Spanish ?” No historical records or archaeological finds mention any pre-Hispanic term for FMA. Pre-colonial Filipinos do have some form of MA but most likely there was no specific proper noun to refer it to. It could have simply been called “sword fighting,” “fighting,” etc. in specific dialects. Such trend can also be observed in pre-WWII Philippines, where FMA were generically called Escrima, Arnis, Estoque,… Some practitioners, particularly in Cebu, surmise that it could have been pangamut, a Cebuano term that refers to “skill with the hands,” used more in a general sense as opposed to being specific to the FMA. Ilonggos could have simply called it kinaadman “skill,” lab-anay “hacking,” bun-anay (stabbing), etc. However, these terms, pangamut, kinaadman, lab-anay, and bun-anay does not refer to specific styles of MA.” Please note that it is kinaadman, not kaliradman. Ask any native Ilonggo speaker and he/she will tell you so. Your sincerity is appreciated. God bless. JAMES Mark Harrell wrote: Rather than engage your strongly worded belief and opinion let me say that we may be on common ground in that although I am not a historian I do not think that Kali is Filipino in origin but that Kali does have Filipino / Spanish / Chinese, Indonesian, etc influence. The art of Kali has not be proven to be of Filipino origin. It seems that there are claims and heated debate but no real proof one way or the other. I also agree with you with regards to the usage of the term KALI itself is not the real issue. The real issue is the claim by SOME groups that Kali is the "mother art" etc... I do not personally subscribe to this story that you and many find so offensive. I have found that many martial arts from different cultures from around the world have a love for legend, fantasy or just made up histories. It must be a universal human trait... It seems that for some reason South East Asia shares the common belief that if something is older that it is somehow more pure, more effective, more authentic etc... The reality is that older does not make it somehow more pure or more effective or more authentic. For example: the wooden club or sword are older than the gun or F18 fighter jet or Atomic bomb but the age of the weapon does not make it better or more pure, etc... The usefulness of the weapon depends on the environement, situation, etc, etc... Successful self defense as you know is a complex combination of actual techniques, strategy and principles as well as the individuals attributes and skills that make something effective or not. As far as the debate over older, mother art, more pure or more authentic that will always remain subjective and for me personally, I do not care. It is quite simply not important to me. Does anyone know why some of the older generation of Filipinos who came to America many years ago used the term Kali ? Why would someone start to use a term that may not have been in use or in common use ? What names pre-date the use of the Spanish terms, Escrima and Arnis to describe the native martial arts of the Philippines before the influence of the Spanish ? It seems to me that if anyone had creditable information on the answer to this question that the Kali claims would finally fade into the background as historical truth stood up to the stories, legend and myth of Kali in the Philippines. Peace be with you, Mark ******************************************************** Hello, I dont like to dip my hand to the "Kali" term again, but I think I have to clarigy one thing. We can argue of what Inosanto and other "Kali" usage term and it will not end the issue. The real isssue is not the "Term" amny times is have been point it out. and I will point it out again, which one you dont understand: 1) NO, "Kali" is not the mother arts, like they claimed. 2) NO, Kali is not known Filipino Martial Arts in the Philippines. 3) NO, Kali is not any different than Arnis and Eskrima now. 4) NO, Kali is not in any means far better nor less that Eskrima Fighter, and Arnisadores. Now people which is the part of "NO" you dont understand, the "N" or the "O"?? its still "NO" I mentioned it before "kali" now is accepted term as Filipino Martial Arts, and fine and we cant change that, but the only calimed that we Eskrimadores, Estokadores, and Arnisadores is stand is m this is not the "Mother Arts". Hope its is end here, becaused we are going back and port to some inclusion, and insertion of the words that not mere know to the Filipino. Now, I will get down to my own word again, you want to be called pure, then one way to see if your art is any better or the true "Mother of all Mother of the Filipino Martial Atrs", then put it in action. I will stand to that challenge, and I am a Arnisdor, Eskrimador and Estokador, and I am tired hearing the claimed that this "Kali" is the "Mother Art" that all. I dont have any comment to the skills of Kali practitioner, but I am very much insulted when someone that not even born and raised in the Philippines is arguing this "mother Arts" of all Filipino Martila Arts "Kali". I dont care what your instructor todl you, to us majority of Filipino can easily clraify it that your instructor made a big "Boboo" such a claimed that many of us not agreeing. Kali dont have ground for acceptance to be the Mother Arts, the Purer, the first art and so on. If you are not Filipino and try to push to us to accepted that "Term" or to be accepted by others Arnis and Eskrima believer. Also, even the Filipino whom set the "Term" his intention is to clearly say that his art is the purer, and the rest of the FMA is come from this brand. They are "darn" wrong and i can sure you that, unless they can explain every single theory of Arnis, Style, Eskrima, and Estokada and see the close ties to each other, I would probably the first one to accept that claimed. Hope this will put some clarification of such claimed. Kali-mutan, (forget) about it, "Kali-kisan" (Scale off), "Kali-sin" (Scrape) off, even the blade itself that used in Mindanao called "Kalis" is not show or even traceable to be the mother art of Arnis/Eskrima. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You’ll love Windows Live Hotmail. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:35:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Can't see the Kali tree for the Kali forest? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I would agree with you Kristine. Guro Inosanto had categorically clarified his official definition of Kali as kamot lihok. Not surprising because his teacher, GM Villabrille, was Cebuano. GM Villabrille learned Escrima but for a reason we don’t know, he replaced the term with Kali, perhaps to liken it to the past as per Yambao. (Please note that Yambao was from Bulacan, Villabrille from Cebu). So far no problem. Until… People start hypothesizing that Kali has something to do with the Indian God Kali Kali is Indian. Kali is Hindu. Kali comes from kalis. Kali is singular, Kalis is plural. Kali is the reverse spelling of Silak (Silat actually). Kali is an abbreviation of Kalimantan. Kali is from Mindanao. Kali is Muslim. Kali has something to do with a river. Kali is from Kalibo. Kali is Tausug. Kali is repetition in Indonesian. Kali is the root word (later revised as prefix) of many Filipino words. And so on and so forth. And claiming that Kali is a pre-Hispanic term. Kali is the Mother Art of all FMA. Kali is original, pure, undiluted, more complete, etc. Kali is blade based while Arnis and Escrima are stick based. And so on and so forth. In the Tao Te Ching, “those who tip toe can’t stand still.” So this is what happened now. What was once a very simple definition kamot-lihok has transmutated into something as black as the Goddess Kali. In the 1970s, the book Filipino Martial Arts stood out because it was at the top of its class in that era. But new research findings and the new cyber technology had proven that some of what were written needs a revision, in light of the new discoveries. Such was the case of William Henry Scott’s work. It debunked a number of supposed pre-Hispanic documents that included the Code of Kalantiaw and the Maragtas. These were taken as “history” in Philippine textbooks. But later relegated to folklore after Scott had successfully defended his work to a panel of renowned Filipino historians. Then the textbooks were revised. I would agree with you that it’s high time that Guro Inosanto makes a public statement of his stand on this issue. From there, any other pronouncements that would not coincide with what he says would obviously be from another party. God bless. JAMES Kristine Strasburger wrote: Respectful greetings to all, and thanks for the thought-provoking discussions of late. Maybe I am being simple-minded here, but I just don't understand why people are not accepting of the previously stated (by more than one poster) explanation supposedly stemming from Guros Dan Inosanto and Ben Largusa themselves: That the term Kali as it is applied to the FMA's is simply a combination of two words (Kamot or Kamut and Lihot or Lihok) that give the meaning of "move of the hand". The fact that the word "kali" exists in a number of different languages in various forms and with various meanings would be totally irrelevant and coincidental in this case. It does not seem too far-fetched to me that this is the true source of the term Kali in the FMA's considering the way the FMA's have been taught and passed on before they were affected by modern commercialism, and the need for official names of styles/systems, ranking, titles, etc. I am not Filipino by descent, so I may be making a very limited overgeneralization here (and please excuse me if I am), but it has been my observation in 24 years of involvement in the FMA's that it is not uncommon for a Filipino teacher to "make up" or "create" a term to call something for the benefit of his western student/audience, not because he is trying to appear knowledgeable, but because the western mind craves a method for categorizing and filing information in a different way than the eastern mind does, and so he is trying to meet the needs of his western student. Obviously, there exists names, terms, etc. in the eastern arts, but there just seems to be a different approach to the naming, especially if you try to discern the world-view behind the physical and verbal expressions. (Just for the record, I acknowledge that plenty of people from all races make up terms for what they are teaching. My statement above was made to draw out the differences of the world-views between eastern and western thought, not the practices of races, per se., so no flame-throwing is necessary on this point, please.) As for the whole issue of "Kali" being a mother art, I would venture to say that Guro Inosanto might regret the phrasing he used in his book. Many writers wish they would have written some things differently in hindsight (Mark Wiley even stated so in his revised version of one of his editions), and this may be one of those cases. Guro Inosanto is one of the most highly respected individuals in the FMA, partly because he does not have a divisive personality. It does not seem to be in keeping with his long-standing reputation that he meant to imply Kali was something better or more pure when he used the term "mother art." It is plausible that Guro Inosanto was simply trying to express the differences between kada-anan (old style) and kabaroan (new style) in understandable terms for his English speaking audience. Keep in mind that this was a ground-breaking book on a relatively unknown topic in America at the time of publication, and writers always write with a particular audience in mind. In this case, it would not be unreasonable to say that the old style is the mother of the new style without implying something better or more pure about the old style or mother. Putting your thoughts in writing can be difficult, and it is too easy to mis-interpret the writer's thoughts and intentions when you can't get clarification and feedback. Just my two cents on the issue. It is not a waste of time to discuss and try to clarify this issue, but it certainly could become a waste of time and effort if the simplest explanation closest to the earliest published occurrences of the word Kali in relation to the FMA's is not even given honest consideration and discussion. Ideally we would have an official statement from Guro Inosanto himself (in print other than on the internet, which is too easily falsified, or on film (hint, hint, Crafty)) that would become a source of documentation for the simple creation of the word Kali from the combination of Kamut and Lihok, if that is indeed his understanding of the source of the word. Obviously, Guro Inosanto was not the first person to combine these words to form the term Kali, but he was certainly closer than most of us to sources such as Grandmaster Ilustrisimo at the time the term began to be used more specifically as an official name (for the benefit of the western mind???), and so he should have a pretty good idea whether the simply created descriptive term kali became "elevated" to the status of the official name "Kali' or not. Best Regards, Kristine Strasburger www.HeartlandEskrimaSchool.com --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest