Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 09:03:11 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #169 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Kali (james jr. sy) 2. Kali - Going Back to the Baginning (james jr. sy) 3. Re: Thoughts from a Scholarly study of the FMA (james jr. sy) 4. Kali is legit because there is also Kali is Indonesian counting (james jr. sy) 5. ROMANTIIZING KALI SOME MORE (james jr. sy) 6. Tabak/Gulok/Itak/Bolo (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #166 - 10 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 7. Clarification (Marc Denny) 8. Stick and Blade Arts on the ground (chanoaim@bellsouth.net) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:34:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ken jo wrote: “[-- as to where Mr. Mirafuente got his info - that would be the subject of debates - but it would seem logical to assume that the use of that word has been in existence long before the publishing of the book - as the draft document, i heard, was 20-30 years in the making - we can only surmise that the word KALI was in existence at least in the 1900s or a minimum of 100++ years.. but if we are to be strict, legalistic, and technical about it, then the published word KALI is at least 50 years old this year --]” Florante at Laura by Francisco Balagtas - 1831 - First record of Arnis. Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis by Placido Yambao - 1957 - First Record of Kali. Regards. :p JAMES ken jo wrote: greetings! I am thankful for all the additional information on KALI that I have learned in this digest. I respect the opinions being presented here and in relation to this topic, I would like to know if anybody has information as to which system/style Mr. Yambao and Mr. Mirafuente belonged to or were practicing at that time that they agreed to acknowledge the terminology "KALI" in the book "Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis" which was published in 1957? [-- as to where Mr. Mirafuente got his info - that would be the subject of debates - but it would seem logical to assume that the use of that word has been in existence long before the publishing of the book - as the draft document, i heard, was 20-30 years in the making - we can only surmise that the word KALI was in existence at least in the 1900s or a minimum of 100++ years.. but if we are to be strict, legalistic, and technical about it, then the published word KALI is at least 50 years old this year --] -- matagal ko na po sanang gustong itanong ito noon pa.. ano po ba ang istilo ni manong mirafuente at manong yambao noon at pumayag sila na bigyan pansin ang terminolohiyang "KALI" sa panahong 1957? -- dugay na unta nako ni gusto ipangutana, unsa diay ang istilo nila noy mirafuente ug noy yambao niadto nga nisugot man sila na gamitun ang "KALI" niadtong 1957? maraming salamat po.. PS: - got this from Bakbakan's website - "..Yambao and Rey Galang share a common Pampango heritage. Both share a distinctive mastery of Pampanga's esoteric fighting art, the Sinawali or "Adwang Mutun." - and from various sources: Dan Inosanto [born 24 July 1936] was only 21 years old in 1957 and though exposed to FMA in his early years, at this time he was still studying Judo under Duke Yoshimura - it was Ed Parker of American Kenpo Karate who encouraged him to study FMA sometime 1961-63.. Manong Dan's book on the Filipino Martial Arts was published in 1977 - a full 20 years after Manong Yambao's book was published.. ____________________________________________________________________________________Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:43:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali - Going Back to the Baginning Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi CD and Red Baron, I have to give it to Crafty. Guro Inosanto wrote, “now eskrimadors say the majority of Filipinos have at least a rudimentary knowledge of Kali or Escrima. The older “masters” who have proven themselves in combat are revered and treated with the utmost respect. Escrima in the Philippines is dead, they say. The proven fighters, the adventurous ones, have all left. If what they say is true, then America is the new home of the Escrimador - or Kali - of the ancient savage and sophisticated arts of the Filipino people.” Guro Inosanto was indeed quoting “they” and it was not him who said that FMA is dead in the Philippines. I wrote on May 20, 2007: “What’s worse there are those who claim that FMA is dead in the Philippines.” Please note that the comment was plural and was intended for those who had repeated and rephrased the statement. Red Baron wrote: “the impression i got was that when he says KALI is the mother art he doesn't mean it is the progenitor but a term that was used to encompass the totality of the art. Escrima and Arnis are Spanish terms and are often used to just encompass stick fighting or stick and knife fighting. There is lots more to FMA then just that part of the art, and many things have different names,” “I think it also important to note that Guro Inosanto uses all three terms to describe the art both in his book and in his teaching, thus much of the confusion comes not from his teaching but from people who misinterpret his words.” Guro Inosanto tells us 4 things about Kali in the book: 1. Kali is Muslim. 2. Kali is the oldest form of weaponry in the islands. 3. Kali is mother to and is older to Escrima. 4. Kali came from kalis. Guro Inosanto wrote, “but it wasn’t just their religious fervor that made them so effective. The art behind their bladed weapon was “Kali” (silat) the oldest weaponry on the islands and mother to Escrima. Older than Escrima, Kali comes from the word kalis, which implies a blade, and…” Page 12. The section on GM Ben Largusa reinforces such assertions (taken from GM Largusa’s point of view): “Ben Largusa separates himself from the title of Escrima master. He is a man of Kali, the older Filipino art. Kali is the source from which all the Escrima styles developed.” “Escrima, Arnis, Sikaran, Silat, Kuntao, Kaliradman, Kalirongan, and Pagkalikali are all phases of Kali,” says Largusa, “but Kali is the mother or ancestral art. These phases are all part of pour training.” Please note that the term Arnis was not given much importance in the book, having been mentioned only at least 3 times. The term Escrima was given much relative importance, in several cases being mentioned with Kali in this way “Escrima and Kali.” This is quite understandable since majority of the grandmasters who taught Guro Inosanto were Cebuanos and Escrima was and is the accepted term for FMA in Cebu. Some other points: Red Baron wrote: “When he uses the term Kali my impression was That it was supposed to be another easier term for all FMA. Not a specific System or style, that is thought to be more pure and original.” Guro Inosanto meant Kali as a generic term, not a specific system or style. Arnis is as easy as Kali, both being bisyllabic while Escrima is simple enough with 3 syllables. Pantukan or Panatukan is linguistically incorrect. The appropriate term would be suntukan, the noun suntuk “punch” is the root word plus the suffix an “the act of,” taken together as “the act of punching” or “boxing.” Escrima and Arnis “just encompass stick fighting or stick and knife fighting” is a statement that can be easily invalidated unless you have credible proof to back your statement up. Let’s take some examples from the Visayas: Balintawak Escrima (Cebu) - Blade, Stick, knife, empty hands, etc. Doce Pares (Cebu) - Stick, knife, empty hands, etc. Lapu-Lapu Vińas Arnis (Bacolod) - Blade, Stick, empty hands, etc. Lightning Scientific Arnis (Mambusao) - Blade, Stick, empty hands, etc. Oido de Caburata (Murcia) - Long and short Stick Original Filipino Tapado (Bago) - Long and short Stick Yasay Sable (Bago) - Blade, Stick, knife, empty hands, etc. These are the kind of sweeping statements that make Escrima and Arnis people edgy. Regards. JAMES --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:40:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Thoughts from a Scholarly study of the FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Marc, I agree with Master Jay. I previously wrote: “No historical records or archaeological finds mention any pre-Hispanic term for FMA. Pre-colonial Filipinos do have some form of MA but most likely there was no specific proper noun to refer it to. It could have simply been called “sword fighting,” “fighting,” etc. in specific dialects. Such trend can also be observed in pre-WWII Philippines, where FMA were generically called Escrima, Arnis, Estoque,…” “Some practitioners, particularly in Cebu, surmise that it could have been pangamut, a Cebuano term that refers to “skill with the hands,” used more in a general sense as opposed to being specific to the FMA. Ilonggos could have simply called it kinaadman “skill,” lab-anay “hacking,” bun-anay (stabbing), etc. However, these terms, pangamut, kinaadman, lab-anay, and bun-anay does not refer to specific styles of MA.” JAMES jay de leon wrote: Good post, Marc. Marc's young son is getting the best FMA education as a student of Doce Pares Master Felix Roiles. Keep in mind that during the periods you describe, circa 1521, no FMA names (as we know them) existed for any martial systems that may have been taught on some structured basis. My friend Ramon Rubia, a San Miguel Eskrima guro and a very knowledgeable and active researcher of Cebuano/Visayan eskrima, recounted to me recently that when he would ask an old timer the name of the style they practiced, most of the time they would shrug their shoulders and say something generic (in their dialect) equivalent to "fighting" or "stabbing" or some general term. Later on, they would identify an FMA style by the practitioners or their hometown or area--like Saavedra style or Moalboal fighting. I believe Ramon is working on a book that will be the culmination of many years of hands-on FMA research in Cebu and other towns in the Visayas. That is the kind of scholarly research (similar to those of James Sy and Macachor and Nepangue) that we need instead of us armchair experts jawing at each other. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com "Lawrence, Marc J." wrote: To All, I have found the heated debate on terminology very interesting. This sparked me share my thoughts on the subject of the Original art and its name. I am married to Filipina of Visayan /Ilocano heritage. My family refers to me as Filipino by marriage. I have been very fortunate to have the art and its history shared me with so I could teach my children. This has led me on journey of learning so that I could share with my children so they would be proud to of be Pinoy. I have collected my own information over the years by listening to my Older Brothers, Uncles and Grandfathers. They incouraged me to read and study and listed to the old stories. This list of the names for FMA that I have collected during my journey: Arnis, Eskrima, Escrima, Esgrima, Kali, Pakamut, Pangamot, Panadata, Kalirongan, Didya, Kabaron, Pagkalikali, Sinawalli, Pangtusok, Macabebe, Kaliradman, Pagaradman, Estokada, Estoque, Fraile, Arnas de Mano, Arnis de Mano and Baston. All of these contain stick fighting as part of their art. (Ten of these are of Spanish language origin) Based upon the society that existed in 14 century in the Philippines Islands, there were no standing armies in the family based villages. ( the family based village concept continues with the Filipino families today) Because of constant threats of raiders from other people like the Chinese and raiding Malay, a defense system had to be developed. They had the ability to make swords-Bolos, hand cannon-Lantakas, sling arrows-Panas, shield-Tagong and great other ingenious weapons but this took time and precious resources. There were local coastal trading ships for larger areas these were armed with Lantakas. The use and manufacture of gunpowder existed. Some areas even made armor. There was a written language in use before the Spanish arrived. This need for defense created the need for a village art not martial/military art where a certain number people were expendable in a military based arts like those of the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans. Being that everyone was of value because they were family, a fighting system using simple natural motion had to be created. The Datu with his best fighters had little time to take a village of farmers, craftsmen, hunters and fisherman and make them into fighting force. They had little time to train their force simply because the amount of time needed to grow/gather food and make the needed materials/ supplies. This meant that they had to teach in pieces so the first thing taught was how to fight in long range first as this was the safest when fighting. They then would teach how to fight at medium range, this had moderate risk when fighting. Then they would teach close range, this had high risk when fighting. So they used their wisdom so solve the problems. Our Grandfathers understood body mechanics far better than most give them credit for. They understood the use of natural materials far better than most give them credit for. This is the picture that I have formed of what the art must have looked like when Datu Lapu-Lapu fought Magellan and his men on April 7th 1521 is this: simple quick linear movements in using forehand and back hand strikes, in patterns used to take advantage opening, there were three ranges long-lagyo, medium-tunga-tunga and close-dugol. The motions used were ones that could be used with long sword-Kampilan, short sword-Bolo, sharpen fire harden hardwood stick or even at adjusted range a knife-Baraw. These same basic motions for close quarters combat-Layog o Bugno. Instead of stick for the empty hand fighting, the arm and the foot were referred and used in the same manner as the tip, blade edge and butt strikes of the stick. I strongly suspect after each contact with a new raider that the art changed to defeat the new threat and took the best of what they had learned from their experiences. This is what we see today with more complex movements blade arts of FMA. FMA has continued to develop as different fighting systems met here in the US and blended. Still as one studies the motions used you can still see our Grandfathers original teachings. These are some my scholarly thoughts in the study of FMA... Thank you for sharing all of your thoughts. I found that my older brothers- Ray Terry, Al Marinas Sr, Jay Deleon and Gat Puno Abon Garimot Baet thoughts very enlightening. Maraming Salamat Po, Marc Lawrence South Bay, CA. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:46:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali is legit because there is also Kali is Indonesian counting Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bgdebuque wrote: “Thus "sekali" would be "1 repetition" or "once". "Dua kali" would be "2 repetitions" or "2 times". "Tiga kali" would be "3 repetitions" or "3 times". "Beberapa kali" would be "many times". "Berkali-kali" would be "continuously". “Still, there is another meaning for "kali". In Indonesian math lingo, "kali" means "times" or "multiplied by". Thus, "satu kali dua" would mean "one times two" or "one multiplied by two" or simply "1 x 2".” To quote my previous post: “it is so easy to connect two or more things from different backgrounds just based on word similarities.” If you are not yet aware of it, FMAers don’t use Indonesian numbers when they teach FMA. They use Spanish, Cebuano, Ilonggo, tagalog, or any of the other major Filipino dialects, and in the case of the west, English. I believe you haven’t addressed these points I previously posted: “ If you agree with both PG Mat’s research on kalisin (which you expressed in a previous post) and Aby Paul’s “play” definition,” where do you really stand? “After choosing from one of the above, the next question then is, do you agree with the kamot lihok definition of GM Villabrille/Inosanto? If so how do you fit that to the kalisin and play point of views?” “How do you prove the historical authenticity of something if you will exclude written records (documents), anecdotal data from RELIABLE sources (oral), and archaeological finds (physical proof)? Definitely not by conjecture/speculation alone or relying on the internet for proof.” “How do you prove the historical authenticity of something if you will exclude written records (documents), anecdotal data from RELIABLE sources (oral), and archaeological finds (physical proof)? Definitely not by conjecture/speculation alone or relying on the internet for proof.” ‘By far, you have not given any documentary, RELIABLE anecdotal, and physical proof for the HISTORICAL AUTHENTICITY of the term Kali.” “Your argument on the influence of IMA on Kali on a strictly academic level doesn’t merit consideration due to the following reasons: 1. It’s based on conjecture (look at the words you’re using, full of doubt). 2. You base your references on the internet which are not academically acceptable, unless otherwise they will merely serve as “back up” to historical records written by authorities in the anthropological, historical, archaeological, and related fields. “Remember, Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia that can be edited by ANYBODY, including you. Although it requires references, in by itself is not enough to ascertain that the sources given are reliable and/or authentic.” Now we are told Kali is counting in Indonesian, anybody agree with that? --------------------------------- Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:53:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] ROMANTIIZING KALI SOME MORE Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net While pondering on all the facts given out in defense of the use of the term Kali, I tried to put myself in the shoes of a Kali proponent. I traced the interlapping “evolution” of the historicity of the term as to wit: Kali is Cebuano (i.e. kamot lihok) Kali is Muslim (i.e. Silat connection). Kali is Hindu (i.e. Goddess Kali, Sri Visahaya Empire) Kali is Indian (i.e. Sri Visahaya Empire, sarong) Kali is Buddhist (i.e. Mahadpajit Empire) Kali is Ilonggo (i.e. 10 Bornean Datus, Kalibo) Question, which is it really? Guro Inosanto was firm on his stand that it is Cebuano and we know that to be true, at least semantically. We can’t say the same for the other claims, unless they forward a historically sound proof. It’s amusing to read all the revisionist histories and some that are mere plagiarisms flooding the net right now. Watch out for new theories on how Kali came about. They will surely sprang out from nowhere, now that Nepangue’s and Macachor’s book is now in the market, in defense of the “Mother Art.” Just don’t forget, it was me who first forwarded that Kali originated from Atlantis, with the Kali fish genus being the first practitioners hehehe. That’s also why their scales are called kaliskis hehehe again. :p (The seriousness in the thread is noring at times.) Now a friend who doesn't want to be outdone gave his version. To quote him: "Mother Kali (Kali Ma) is the deity who "kills" ignorance. She is dark-colored and sometimes "has many hands," that does a lot of movement. Her dark color suggests secrecy or night time, this is why many Kalistas practice at night. Kali as an art was once exclusively practice by warriors of the Kali tribe. Some traveled eastward and reached the Indonesian archipelago. During the Cailandra(?) Dynasty they multiply and reached nearby places like the Philippines, the Champa Kingdom etc. Some arrived in Mactan and continued their brand of Hinduism. When the people were Christianized they cleverly disguised the Goddess under the new identity, Nuestra Vigen de la Regla." :p I know no one will believe his version (including me) coz it’s just that, ridiculous and a big joke. JAMES --------------------------------- You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 10:17:04 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Tabak/Gulok/Itak/Bolo (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #166 - 10 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net For all EDers, Tabak is associated with "tabas" to cut as in the right to left horizontal technique called "tabas talahib" (to cut talahib a tall grass). The only difference is one has a "k" and the other has an "s". Gulok - Its structure is typical in Tagalog where the root word is surrounded by letters. Here, the root word is "ulo" (head). How the "g" and "k" got there is something I will always wonder about. Of course, a cut to the head is usually fatal. Itak is something I have many interpretations for, meaning, I can't figure out for sure how the word originated. The closest would be "tabak" where it has three letters in common. (Something similar to when you type a Tagalog word and ask WORD to spell check, WORD gives you the closest words that have at least some common letters). Bolo would have come from the "bolos" (sentences of rhythm) used by kathak dancers of India. Words can be as cutting and as sharp as the sword. Indeed, there is only a one letter difference between "word" and "sword". And of course, "kill" and "skill" & "anger" and "danger" Kali is one word I did not want to use when I was looking for a name for my family's system. It has some bad connotation. For one, Kali is the dark side of Mahadevi the Indian Goddess. Kali is also associated with the "thuggees" of India whose MO it was to befriend a traveller and kill him while he is not looking. The thuggees used a yellow handkerchief to strangle their victims and they celebrate the killing by having a cube of sugar afterward. While I teach the use of flexible weapons, I would never mention "handkerchief" in relation to what I teach for this reason. The word "thuggee" was the origin of the Tagalog word "tuhug" meaning "to skewer" in the worst way. The spelling and the meaning got changed but the similarity between the two words cannot be an accident. There are other words in Tagalog where the spelling got changed from its original while the meaning became, at best, peripheral. I am hoping other EDers would get into the type of research I did. Talking about periods or times in history should be left to the world's best scholars on the subject of history - who also cannot agree among themselves. Best. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/27/2007 7:16:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Its true, I mentioned it before, in old Tagalog, we openly call"Kalis" as interchangable with 'TabaK, Gulok, and itak means all Bolo. In one line on our Passion Play, during the time when Longinus was struct of St, Peter "machete" in the line Jesus said, "Isalong mo Pedro and yaong kalis, sa kamay mo. (Peter put down your bolo from your hand). But it is not based upon to recieved and accept that this is the "MotherArt". I mentioned many time, called your art any name you want, but dont call it "mother" because is not. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 08:05:11 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Clarification Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof GM Marinas, GP Baet et al: It appears that in all the back and forth of the posts that some words of eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net are being read as being mine. NOT SO. Just to clarify, my words were directed to Kristine when she said "FMA is dead in the philippines" (did Guro Inosanto say this? i read it somewhere) he is only telling what was told to him. he deserve respect as an elder in the FMA community, i dont believe many of us will have as many students as we do today if it wasnt for his work for the FMA arts. at the same time, its not fair to blame him for all the begative stuff we see today. but a lot of it came from him, and its not fair to act like it didnt." I pointed out that it was not Guro Inosanto who said "FMA is dead in the Philippines", that what he wrote was "If what they say is true, then , , ," In other words, he was respecting his elders, his teachers and quoting them in what they said. So when Kristine went on to say it wasn't fair to act like a lot of the negative stuff did not come from Guro Inosanto, I disagreed and suggested that she go back to the sources and provide specific examples before making such a statement. My interest in is limited to speaking up for my teacher when he is misrepresented and to speaking up for the name used to describe the system I have founded: "Kali-silat and others" when the very name itself is alleged to be a fiction, a fraud, a creation of some conspiracy in Stockton and things of that sort. Although it is probably worth what one has paid for it (i.e. zero) my opinion the Mirafuentes/Yambao book shows that the word describing some FMA did exist in the Philippines. Furthermore when GP Baet writes as follows, he is making a point that I have heard Guro I. make: >> It is common knowledge that Tagalog is the Philippines national language. >> There is the literary Tagalog that was used by Yambao in his book Mga >> Karunungan sa Larong Arnis. There is the everyday Tagalog heavy with >> modern words that >> did not exist when I was growing up in my village in Central Luzon. And >> there are Tagalog words that are "local". >> >> In my village (about 2 hours north of Manila, in the town of Gapan that >> shares a boundary with Bulacan) there are "local" Tagalog words that >> would >> not be understood by anybody outside the village. Hence, a person, say, >> living in >> Cavite (south of Manila) would not know if such a word exists. Therefore, >> because, the Caviteno might not have heard about the word, it does not >> necessarily mean that the word does not exist. By the same token, a >> Caviteno in a certain barrio (village) may use "local" Tagalog words that >> I would not >> know anything about. >> >> The word "kalis" oftentimes was used interchangeably with "gulok" by my > two granduncles who raised me. They could not have read about the word > because >> they couldn't read. They could not have learned it from their travels >> because they never travelled outside the village. They could not have >> heard it >> from travelling merchants because there was no such thing in my village. >> My two >> granduncles (who were brothers) were both born in the 1880s. One of them, >> Ingkong Leon Marcelo taught me the pingga his version of the sibat >> (spear) which > he used to fight the Spaniards. >> >> I am almost sure that among the many different dialects of the > Philippines, there must also be "local" words not known outside a village. This I think answers the challenge that I have read some Filipinos make about "Kali"-- they are Filipino and they have not heard the word and I am a clueless American so how can I have a different opinion than them. Yes? Anyway, I now make some quick responses to the particulars of some of the posts: =============== > > > To whom it may concern, > > This is to make it clear also, that we are not questioning "Inosanto's > book", > I personally thanks Guro Inosanto for promoting the FMA. Its make it a lot > easier for us to teach the arts, becaused it already have paved the way > and > educated thousand of Martial Arts enthusiast. I am not talking in > particular > book and style of "Kali". > Understood. --------------------------------- > Message: 2 > From: Pananandta@aol.com > Hi Marc, > > Pananandata is the correct spelling. It is my family's system and it is a > copyrighted name. > > Since you seem genuinely interested in Filipino words, , , , , > Best. > > APMarinas Sr. > In a message dated 5/25/2007 9:29:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > This list of the names for FMA that I have collected during my > journey: Arnis, Eskrima, Escrima, Esgrima, Kali, Pakamut, Pangamot, > Panadata, Kalirongan, Didya, Kabaron, Pagkalikali, Sinawalli, Pangtusok, > Macabebe, Kaliradman, Pagaradman, Estokada, Estoque, Fraile, Arnas de > Mano, Arnis de Mano and Baston. In the interest of accuracy, I note that the person who wrote the post to which you were responding was not me. Although I enjoy reading about it all when discussed by knowledgable people such as you, clueless American that I am, I have no more chance of understanding the complexities and interplay of Filipino languages and terminology than my wife's cat has of understanding the theory of relativity. -------------------------------- > Message: 3 > From: Pananandta@aol.com > Subject: [Eskrima] FMA and Body Mechanics (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 > #164 - 13 > msgs) > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Hi Marc, > > Indeed our grandfathers understood body mechanics. They cut wood and wild > edible plants with their bolos from when they were 6 years old. In my > case, I > did all the above and fished with the bolo from when I was in the 2nd > grade. > > Our grandfathers had lots of practice. > > Best. > > APMarinas Sr. > > In a message dated 5/25/2007 9:29:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > So they used their wisdom so solve the problems. Our > Grandfathers understood body mechanics far better than most give them > credit for. In the interest of accuracy, I note that the person who wrote the post to which you were responding was not me. ----------------------- > From: Pananandta@aol.com > , , , > > All I know about Dan Inosanto is that he is a very nice and generous > person. > Of course, he is well known for his martial arts skills and his > dedication > to the FMA. > > Regards. > > APMarinas Sr. > > > > In a message dated 5/26/2007 7:22:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > > ""FMA is dead in the philippines" (did Guro Inosanto say this? i read it > somewhere) he is only telling what was told to him. he deserve respect as > an > elder in the FMA community, i dont believe many of us will have as many > students as we do today if it wasnt for his work for the FMA arts. at the > same time, its not fair to blame him for all the begative stuff we see > today. but a lot of it came from him, and its not fair to act like it > didnt." > > My office is about to be redone and my books are packed away, so I am > working from memory here, but IIRC what he said was "If what they say is > true then FMA is dying in the Philippines". In other words HE didn't > say > it. I think if you take the time to look you will discover that most if > not > all of the statements attributed to him are clearly him quoting someone > else-- so until one goes and looks it up and brings a specific example to > the table the , , , ahem , , , "fair" thing to do is not say that he > did. > > TAC, > CD GM Marinas: I took nothing amiss from your posts. Again, my response was directed to Kristine, whose comments I indicated with quotation marks. ---------------------- > Message: 6 > > From: gatpuno@aol.com > > > Guro Marc Denny, > > First of all, thank you for the nice gesture DVD. Nicely done and lots > of good info. Glad you liked it. (Folks, he's talking about our "The Grandfathers Speak Vol 2. Maestro Sonny Umpad") Maestro Sonny was someone special. > May I asked where did you read this info. On May 1997, I wrote an > article in Inside Kung Fu. In title Arnis de Mano Dead in the > Philippines? Contrary to what Billy Bryant article "FMA is dead in the > Philippines and the new home for Eskrimador is America. > > But I dont want to jump to the conclusion that you read the same > article I wrote, , , , > I have mentioned I have atmost respect for "Guro Inosanto" I have many > times show gratitude for his Pioneering the PMA. Its make it easy ofr > us to go out there and promote our own version of the FMA. I have not > read anyone saying that Guro Inosanto is saying that FMA is Dead in the > Philippines. Its so obvious not, becaused the Canetes is well known > practicing the arts and other masters. My family is practiced the arts > up to now over there, so I assume that Guro Inosanto would say anything > on those term. > > I agree with you with all count, that we are should be more thankfull > to him. I have to give that to him. He earned it and he live with it. > Thank you for bringgin it up though. If anything I am the first one to > contradict that post, or article if I ever read it. > > > > Guro Marc Denny, again thank you, if you are refering to my article, I > am sorry but I dont see anything here I mentioned Guro Inosanto. I have > the article on my desk. Hope is not my article.. > > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet GP Baet: I was not thinking of your article, I was responding to Kristine's comments. Anyway, there it is. The Adventure continues, Marc/Crafty Dog PS to Grand Pooh Bah Ray Terry: I'm wondering if the confusion here has its genesis in the way that the ED now quotes the previous posts. IIRC it didn't use to be like this. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: To: Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 12:46:41 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Stick and Blade Arts on the ground Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mabuhay all .. I was cruising You Tube this morning and came across these videos posted under the subject " Stick Grappling". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fm6ocwl_EY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voFrs8rPCVs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6EeFp_3XHM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ahmNI5gf9w I was surprised and pleased to see the manner in which this aspect was being studied by the particpants: from the wooded environment, starting from a live sparring position, lack of time outs, use of "punyos", lack of padding, etc. All designed to keep the reality of the training intact. Not sure but many of the participants seemed to be wearing Sayoc Kali shirts. If so, then my heartfealt salute them for , as the kids say today "Keepin' in Real". The eventuality of going to the ground (even when sparring with sticks or blade trainers) is high. In today's world the advent of MMA and groundwork training almost assures that we will face someone at somepoint who wants to take us to the ground. Quick anecdote.. While lightly sparring with some novice FMA practioners recently I was surprised by one who was willing to take a few heavy shots with the baston in order to get in, clinch my shoulders and try and take me down. Luckily, I was able to use a "snaking" motion and use my baston as a lever against his arms. take him down and follow up with more strikes. When asked why he attempted the clinch he simply stated that he was getting beat by the stick, didn't have the skills to counter and instinctively reverted to what he had practiced before. I guess the old adage is true..Sometimes training against a wild novice is better than training against a seasoned vet just for the unpredictability factor. Aside from the use of punyos, locks with the stick, finger- wrist - elbow- shoulder locks against both arms, head/neck locks and breathing control seem to be a areas to be trained in this situation. IMHO, Swinging blows with the stick will be ineffective, lack power and can open you up for counter. I know we've played with this sometime ago in Garimot system and I will be going back to my notes to review. Is anyone on ED currently training with their stick and blade arts on the ground? If so, how are you going about the training? Would love to hear constructive comments. Your brother in Training Guro Glenn Harris Garimot Arnis Training - USA Miami, Florida www.garimot.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest