Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 02:58:39 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #170 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. James Sy Jr. & Kali (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #168 - 7 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 2. Gatpuno & copyright (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #167 - 7 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 3. Gatpuno, Translation of Tagalog words (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #167 - 7 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 4. Accuracy in posting (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #169 - 9 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 5. Guro Crafty/Thank you (gatpuno@aol.com) 6. re: sticks and blades to the ground (michael s) 7. Re: Tabak/Gulok/Itak/Bolo (tim) 8. RE: Stick and Blade Arts on the ground (Joseph Marana) 9. trim your replies / messages (Ray) 10. arnis (steve mulligan) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 13:17:37 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] James Sy Jr. & Kali (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #168 - 7 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi James, Great arguments all over. (A) I think that problems will always arise when the two following issues are not kept separate. (1) kali being claimed to be "the mother art" and (2) attempts at explaining the origin and meaning of the word kali. I would not dare discuss the the origin of the art kali. I wouldn't know. If I considered kali better, I would have used it as part of the name of my family's system. I didn't. I chose a name that I can easily explain. But I will always be willing to discuss kali's meaning and try to explain it (a) in the context of the culture of the Filipinos, (b) in the words derived from Sanskrit that are still in use, (c) the mental and physical focus displayed by its practitioners and (d) the results of the practice of the art. In a message dated 5/27/2007 11:58:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: What’s in a name? If we accept the logic that it’s just a name, then why would a Muslim find it offensive to be called Moros? then why would a black man find it offensive to be called Negro? then why is it improper for a Chinese to call a helper huanapo? (B) The official explanation from this lineage of Kali is indeed the Cebuano words kamot “hand” and lihok “movement/motion” no doubt about it. A child, before birth, will usually come into the world with a name. Among Filipinos, one of the potential sources for a child's name is a Catholic calendar - the name of a Saint or the name of a very important Catholic event. It did not work for me. I was born February 11 a big day among Catholics - Our Lady of Lourdes. I could have been named Lou but I wasn't - too foreign. About kali: The Cebuanos would not have gotten one syllable from "kamot" and another sylabble from "lilok" to come up with the word "kali" for no reason. They wanted to give a name to something that already existed. The art already existed but there was no name. Hence, the need to find a name. The conclusion is: the art existed before it had a name. The problem arises when the time line between the very beginning of the art and the coining of it's name are made identical. BTW, in Tagalog, "Kamot" means "to scratch". This is typical among Philippine dialects. It gets bad sometimes. One word in one dialect could mean pleasant things. In another dialect after you said the same word, you might have to run for your life! So one has always to be on "tip toes" or "tip tongues??" A more recent example in the FMA is YawYan. Founder Nap (Fernandez) was my younger aikido brother. His art was born but it didn't have a name. He had to find a very appropriate name. Hence, the art is older than the name. By the way James, (a) I would like to get a copy of your book when it gets published (b) Most of those I play mahjong with are Cebuanas who are family friends. I get to play when they need to fill a chair :-) APMarinas Sr. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 14:19:47 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Gatpuno & copyright (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #167 - 7 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Gatpuno, Absolutely not. Anybody can use the term but within limits. Let me give you an example. One of my students surfed the internet and found that Amazon.com was selling T-shirts/sweatshirts/caps with the name "Pananandata Marinas". I got very angry. I even requested you (via email) to help spread the word that they did not have permission to use the words. There is only one Marinas associated with the name "pananandata". The merchandise originated from Florida (but I would not give the company's name). It is this kind of use that I guard against - somebody making money on my labor of more that 30 years trying to get the name recognized. It is the name recognition that the company was relying on to make a few $. I doubt if they would have made more than a few $ though. I emailed the company. They apologized and I accepted the apology and that was that. Let me ask you. Can you name one writer aside from me who has written about pananandata in the last 34 years (since 1973)? Hence, whatever name recognition pananandata gets is because of my 34 labor of years of writing, demonstrating, and doing seminars on it. Those who you said had been practicing it, how much effort did they put in propagating the name in the United States? A copyright is not a claim on the ownership of the word. Words that are as old as the mountain can be copyrighted. If you look around there are many such words. Titles of songs are copyrighted. Titles of movies are copyrighted. It is to guard against commercial use of copyrighted materials by opportunists. I can give another example: A company labels its perfume "Great". Another company comes out with a disinfectant "Great". What is involved is the tradename. Still it is right along the copyright law. If somebody sells merchandise in the internet using "Garimot Arnis" without your permission, what protection do you have against it? Or if somebody puts up a school in the middle of nowhere offering to teach "Garimot Arnis" without your knowledge what happens then? You might pick up a stick and knock on their door? The problem is you might be a better fighter but the other guy you beat up might have a better lawyer. One cannot copyright a dance. In the same way that one cannot copyright the movements in a martial arts (although I have read about challenge in this regard on the copyright law). So the words "copy cat" has nothing to do with my copyright. Best. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/27/2007 12:17:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: PG Marinas, Pananadata is Tagalog word that everyone used in Laguna. Meaning, the Way of how to used Wepons. Since you cpyright it, that make everyone used them is called copy cat? Just a question? Is that means "all" Eskrimador in other part of Luzon has to have permission from you to used or to call their arts? The word is older than you and me put together? That make everyone use term "copy" from you kind of thing?. Pananandata is the correct spelling. It is my family's system and it is a copyrighted name. "Pananandata" is what we called if we use weapons, "Pangangamay", is the techniques we used to strike the hand, "Pangungulo" is what we call if the practitioner is aim to strike to the head. "Panununtok" is athe art of Fist, "Paninipa" or "Paninikad" if we used Kicking, "Pambubuno" if we use the wrestling, "Pananalita" is the way of giving Speach. PG. Marinas is obvious your not the only one using this words. Just clarification.. Well, I was not going to us you this, until you said tha you copyright this, you have no ground to claim the words as yours, since everyone in Tagalog used the words. thank you, ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 14:32:19 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Gatpuno, Translation of Tagalog words (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #167 - 7 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Gatpuno, There could be half a dozen other translations of the title "Mga Karunungan Sa Larong Arnis" and all of them will be very close to the real thing. Want to hear a good one? My engineering mechanics Professor Felix Go once asked us, "How many sides does a triangle have? He was a very strict teacher and we were deadly afraid of him. The class answered, "Three, Professor". Professor Go laughed, kind of smirked, and said, "Two: the outside and the inside." An interpretation is person-dependent. Best. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/27/2007 12:17:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Hi Gatpuno, Your translation of the title is correct. However, taking the word "Larong Arnis" in context, "Knowledge in the Practice of Arnis" is more appropriate. My personal translation is "Skills Involved in the Practice of Arnis". Skills here includes both mental and physical. Sometimes, there are Tagalog words that will need one or more paragraphs of English to translate. Regards. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 15:24:21 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Accuracy in posting (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #169 - 9 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Marc (Denny), I was responding to Marc (Lawrence's) post. It appears that it is necessary to attach the last name to avoid confusion. Marc is a very popular name. I will make sure that the last name is also included in my posts. I got a good laugh from the cat and the theory of relativity. Regards. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/27/2007 2:44:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: In the interest of accuracy, I note that the person who wrote the post to which you were responding was not me. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 5 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 15:33:23 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Guro Crafty/Thank you Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Crafty, Thank you, I was hoping is not my article. If I hgave any questioned in regards of Inosanto, I will forward the question to the direct student of Guro Inosanto. I dont want to disrespect my student that Teaching Inosanto/Lacoste Kali. If I do i will make sure they understand the question before I even forward it to Guro Inosanto. No I have nothing but respect to the Man, behind one of the strongest Group of FMA in the world. I have few student that start their training following Inosanto and Richard Bustillo, Edgar Sulite. I openly tell them, i wish I am able to meet "Edgar i really love to have experience how to sparred with him. As everyone knows Sparring you learn both ways, you lost you learn why did you lost, you win, you knows whay youwon. but not trying against the best of the best, you dont know hwat you mkissing to your training. May be he has something that I need to strengten my skill or vice versa. But those day is over, i will never find out, his skill level in the arts against my skill. I have seen few tapes, and it hard to measure just watching the tape, I want to be in it, to feel the "andrenaline rush" the excitement of being attack and diliver my best shot that I do. Sad to say, I miss my opportunity with him. PG. Marinas, nice analogy, its really nice I, you almost you make me believed that the real meaning of each "Bolo" names. We have to accep that Indonesian used the word "Golok" too. Golok is more use in Batangas, "Sundang" is one of the word they used to. Tabak, is become famous becaused of Andres Bonifacio, in all Filipino Literature. ":I remember one of my favorite "Poem" witten in Tagalog, remember "Ang Panday" (The Balck Smith). It was written the word "Tabak" in many Filipino literature. In my Laguna, different name name different shape and weight of blades. Golok is more in our place is more scimatar, type byt the tip is cpuyt o Barong, the Tabak is called Sinungot Ulang (Shrimp sword shape), Itak is common term for "Dahon Palay", Dahon Buho, Simapalok, and other everyday blade you see them wearing in the farm. Its nice to put some analogy on it, but it make no different if the blade is made to chop head or wood, it always will be called "Itak", Golok, Sundang, Tabak, etc. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 12:55:02 -0700 (PDT) From: michael s To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re: sticks and blades to the ground Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Fellow enthusiasts, I've trained in the FMA since 1985. My primary art has been CSE. With the advent of the MMA, I've learned to adapt as I'm sure you all have had to do at one point or another. Utilizing the ground is no different. Along with the "traditional" serrada techniques I also incorporate standup grappling, takedowns, locking & striking when I reach the ground. Additionally, I've learned that working control and restraint technique while considering grappling has also been beneficial. Depending upon your state, I highly recommend the laws regarding "self defense" in your state, within the U.S. obviously. PG Mike --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 13:37:00 -0700 (PDT) From: tim To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Tabak/Gulok/Itak/Bolo Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net PG Marinas wrote: > Gulok - Its structure is typical in Tagalog where > the root word is surrounded by letters. Here, the > root word is "ulo" (head). How the "g" and "k" got > there is something I will always wonder about. Of > course, a cut to the head is usually fatal. > I am hoping other EDers would get into the type of > research I did. i had always assumed that the tagalog term 'gulok' was related to the indonesian term 'golok,' which refers to a machete-type blade. although, i haven't done any research on it. i'd be interested in hearing yours. tim ____________________________________________________________________________________Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 16:14:57 -0700 From: "Joseph Marana" Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Stick and Blade Arts on the ground To: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Glenn, These clips were taken from Sayoc Fighting System's Stickgrappling DVD. Among those seen participating include Tuhon Felix Cortes and Tuhon Tom Kier. As far as I am aware, Sayoc Kali has always incorporated grappling "range" components into its curriculum. Our Tuhons' vast experience in wrestling, silat and filipino grappling/manipulation methods all contribute to the evolution of the Sayoc family system. If you enjoyed the clips I highly recommend viewing the DVD in entirety or trying to attend any seminars given by Tuhon Tom. Joe Marana -----Original Message----- From: chanoaim@bellsouth.net [mailto:chanoaim@bellsouth.net] Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 9:47 AM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Stick and Blade Arts on the ground Mabuhay all .. I was cruising You Tube this morning and came across these videos posted under the subject " Stick Grappling". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fm6ocwl_EY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voFrs8rPCVs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6EeFp_3XHM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ahmNI5gf9w I was surprised and pleased to see the manner in which this aspect was being studied by the particpants: from the wooded environment, starting from a live sparring position, lack of time outs, use of "punyos", lack of padding, etc. All designed to keep the reality of the training intact. Not sure but many of the participants seemed to be wearing Sayoc Kali shirts. If so, then my heartfealt salute them for , as the kids say today "Keepin' in Real". The eventuality of going to the ground (even when sparring with sticks or blade trainers) is high. In today's world the advent of MMA and groundwork training almost assures that we will face someone at somepoint who wants to take us to the ground. Quick anecdote.. While lightly sparring with some novice FMA practioners recently I was surprised by one who was willing to take a few heavy shots with the baston in order to get in, clinch my shoulders and try and take me down. Luckily, I was able to use a "snaking" motion and use my baston as a lever against his arms. take him down and follow up with more strikes. When asked why he attempted the clinch he simply stated that he was getting beat by the stick, didn't have the skills to counter and instinctively reverted to what he had practiced before. I guess the old adage is true..Sometimes training against a wild novice is better than training against a seasoned vet just for the unpredictability factor. Aside from the use of punyos, locks with the stick, finger- wrist - elbow- shoulder locks against both arms, head/neck locks and breathing control seem to be a areas to be trained in this situation. IMHO, Swinging blows with the stick will be ineffective, lack power and can open you up for counter. I know we've played with this sometime ago in Garimot system and I will be going back to my notes to review. Is anyone on ED currently training with their stick and blade arts on the ground? If so, how are you going about the training? Would love to hear constructive comments. Your brother in Training Guro Glenn Harris Garimot Arnis Training - USA Miami, Florida www.garimot.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 9 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 16:27:20 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] trim your replies / messages Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Folks, remember to trim your posts, i.e. trim your emails to the list. There is no need to quote the quote of a quote. It just makes for VERY long emails. I realize that this is seldom a problem, but it is now for some reason. So quote -only- the portion to which you are responding and edit out the remainder. Got it? Thanks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 20:59:37 -0400 From: "steve mulligan" To: Subject: [Eskrima] arnis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, can anyone tell me if modern arnis was influenced in anyway by the animal styles of kung-fu..... thanks, Steve --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest