Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 02:58:45 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #172 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Kali (Bo Kaner) 2. Re: chuck liddels' vido clips (Bo Kaner) 3. Re: kaliradman? a visayan term? (Bo Kaner) 4. RE: Kali Source (Van Harn, Steve) 5. Re: kali training in Chicago area (Van Harn, Steve) 6. Re: kali training in Chicago area (Czar Peralta) 7. Kali - River (Mark Harrell) 8. Marc, you are mistaken about my post (Kristine Strasburger) 9. Dahong palay (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #171 - 12 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 10. Tagalog question (Brian Johns) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 04:15:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Bo Kaner To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: hans00228@yahoo.com Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net james sy, jr, greetings! I have been following up your arguments against kali and it seems that some of them (pro kali) are avoiding the issue. Just keep it up so that people outside of the philippines will know the truth. by the way, I was in conversation with some of the old bastoneros here in our city of smile and i was amazed by some of their revelation. It seems that our fellow negrenses ( practitioners of arnis) went to a certain well known oido lagas master and somewhat urged him to use the term "kali" to refer to the masters' art. infact someone told me that there were foreigners present and took some video clips. How true is this? I hope with your expertise the truth will come out, I think this is misleading/deceiving ("patalang" in illonggo) the public. This people i think is doing deservice instead of service to the community. More power to you. Hoping to enlighten us on this. Bo --------------------------------- Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 05:18:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Bo Kaner To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: chuck liddels' vido clips Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net jye, mabuhay ka! thank you for the clips. This is what we missed last saturday. Now everybody is happy at home especially my son who is a mixed martial artist. again mabuhay. bo --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 05:24:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Bo Kaner To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: kaliradman? a visayan term? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net EDers, maayong gabi (good evening) I am sorry to inform you all that there is no term in our dialect as kaliradman. There is a term "kinaadman" (skills). kinaadman sa pangamut (skilled in boxing or in the use of the hands whether with weapons or with pen). Bo --------------------------------- Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:02:52 -0500 From: "Van Harn, Steve" To: Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Kali Source Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net No, not quite correct. My Guru Mushtaq Ali trained in the early '60s as a youth alongside Rashid (as his partner) with Rashid's father, Guru Abdasalaam. It was Guru Abdalsalaam who trained in Marawi and Zambaoanga (not Jolo as I incorrectly posted earlier)in his youth. In #2 HE refers to Guru Abdalsalaam and #4 is correct. Guru Mushtaq also supplied to me yesterday the name most often used by Guru Abdalsalaam. He called it "this is how you fight" most of the time. Steve Message: 5 Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:19:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Kali Source To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From what I understood in your two previous posts: 1. Guru Mushtaq Ali al Ansari was trained in the Kris and knife by a successful merchant family in Jolo from the time he was able to hold them. 2. He and his wife immigrated to the US before WWII. 3. He training in "Kali" in Northern California in the early '60s under Guru Julaluddin Abdalsalaam and his son Rasheed. 4. Guru Julaluddin Abdalsalaam would alternately called it Kali, Silat, Kuntao and a few other names that don't immediately come to mind yet. Did I get it right? Regards. JAMES "Van Harn, Steve" wrote: From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Kali source. It would be a great help if you can provide the name of your Guru and his lineage. For sure, the older generation in the States would know him. JAMES "Van Harn, Steve" wrote: Just to add a small bit to this discussion, my Guru was training in "Kali" in Northern California long before Inosanto's book ever came out. We discussed this over the weekend. His Guru would alternately call it Kali, Silat, Kuntao and a few other names that don't immediately come to mind yet. This would be the very early '60s and his Guru never trained anyone but his son and my Guru and did not "mix" with any other Guros in the States. My point is, any name references he used would have came over with him from Jolo in the late '30s._______________________________________________ Reply: Well, it is highly unlikely but I suppose possible. My understanding is he did not get around much. My Guru's name is Mushtaq Ali al Ansari and he trained in his teens with Guru Julaluddin Abdalsalaam and his son Rasheed. Guru (our honorific, no titles back then) Abdaldalaam emigrated with his wife to the United States before WWII (which by serving in obtained his citizenship). He was raised by a successful merchant family in Jolo and was trained the Kris and knife essentially from the time he was able to hold them. Steve --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:17:42 -0500 From: "Van Harn, Steve" To: Cc: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: kali training in Chicago area Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net My good friend John Bednarski teaches at Midway Kodenkan in Burbank. http://midwaykodenkan.com Steve Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:31:59 -0700 From: "Czar Peralta" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] kali training in chicago area Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have a friend that is moving to Chicago next month. Does anyone know any schools or instructors to train with in the Chicago ares? Salamat, Czar ________________________________________________________ Steve Van Harn | T: 616.994.4358 | F: 616.994.4116 Tennant Company Creating a cleaner, safer world for 136 years. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:40:01 -0700 From: "Czar Peralta" To: "Van Harn, Steve" Cc: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: kali training in Chicago area Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thank you, everyone, for all of the useful information. I never realized what a great resource this community is. I am very grateful to be in contact with such a fine group. Salamat, Czar Peralta MKG Martial Arts Int'l Seattle Branch --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Mark Harrell" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:40:57 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Kali - River Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:27:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Kali term  Mark wrote:   “Anyone attempting to define the term Kali does not add to the confusion, rather they contribute to the movement in the direction of clarity or at least in the direction of investigation and further research. I continue to enjoy the many posts that offer real clarity of language use and written documentation of any kind.”      I previously wrote:   “The more you add to the Kali confusion, the easier it is to prove that it is not what it is claimed to be.”      I was directing the reply to bgdebuque, not to you but since you opened it up, let me point out some things.   Now, you went to the dictionary and found that Kali refers to a river.  You try to associate the Chinese teachings on the characteristics of water (which was taught in Bruce Lee’s JKD and much earlier in Tai Chi Chuan and the other traditional Chinese Martial Arts) because a river has water in it.  But then the dictionary says river and mentions no FMA.   >Although the description of the water principle is best known through the late Bruce Lee and of course the Tai Chi Chuan traditions no one culture or person has the copyright or trademark on the association of water to athletic motion or combative movement. That association has >been used and described by many cultures, traditions and teachers throughout time. I think the characteristics of a river describe many >of the qualities that are sought out by many martial artists from many >cultures and traditions.   Is your interpretation officially authorized by Guro Inosanto? If no, don’t you think his reputation will be put to question with your interpretation of Kali? >Guro Inosanto does not need to officially authorize >my opinions or thoughts on anything. Although I >greatly respect him I do not seek or need his >approval. >I am absolutely certain that Guro Inosanto’s >fantastic reputation as a wonderful and generous >human being and very knowledge teacher could not >possibly be “put into question” by me asking >questions, sharing my thoughts and opinions in the >quest for more information with regards to the use >of the term Kali. >I do not have an axe to grind with regards to the >term Kali nor do I feel that I am even capable of >damaging or affecting in anyway the reputation of >such a wonderful human being and teacher as Guro Dan >Inosanto. >I am enjoying the information and for the most part >the dialog that is occurring with regards to the >use of the term Kali. The presentation style of >some people is somewhat abrasive but I still find >the information being presented as useful in my >quest for more knowledge that will hopefully >provide me with more clarity with regards to the  >term Kali. Wouldn’t this add to the confusion? >Maybe for some people but not for me. Or more importantly, the specific groups that have made such claims? >The only groups that I am aware of that make these >claims are the: >Kali Association of America Schools – lead by Mr. >Mel D. Lopez >The Kamatuuran Schools of Kali – lead by Mr. Joseph >T. Olivia Arriola >The Lontayao Schools of Kali – lead by Mr. Greg >Lontayao   >All of the above listed groups are or were >associated with Mr. Villabrille and Mr. Largusa at >some point in time.   >The schools that use the term Kali but do not make >the offensive claims are most likely schools that >at one point in time used the terms of arnis or >escrima but for some reason switched to the term >Kali. Maybe they switched for business reason’s >because Guro Inosanto has done such a wonderful job >of spreading the Filipino arts around the world. I >do not know the answer… “Intelligently researched and presented information” would not only refer to one’s reference but also the right use or interpretations of these materials. Universally accepted procedure of research involves the meticulous choice of references and solid proof.  Since Kali is supposed to be an ANCIENT MOTHER ART in pre-Hispanic Philippines why can’t Filipino historians, scholars, anthropologists (like Prof. Jocano of UP), linguists, archaeologists, and researchers produce any evidence to support such claims?  If it is indeed Muslim or Hindu, why can’t we find it in ancient Muslim or Hindu records? >I do not subscribe to the claim that Kali is the >mother art… etc… but otherwise I think we agree on >this point. >I have not yet read or seen any evidence or proof >that Kali is a >martial art of the Philippines. These insights/questions will definitely need “intelligently researched and presented information” based on prima facie evidence, not just mere conjecture/speculation.  Peace be with you.  JAMES >I am hoping this process produces a solid result so >that some of the people who contribute here can >lower their cortisol levels and live a more >peaceful life. >Not to mention the fact that it would be nice to >settle this at some point and move onto other points >of common interest. : ) >Thank you for taking the time and energy to engage >in the effort to discover or uncover some truth >about the use of the term Kali. >Peace be with you, >Mark        ------------------------------------------------------------------------ More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:30:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Kristine Strasburger To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Marc, you are mistaken about my post Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc, You have the wrong person (easy to do in this very active topic). I did not write the quote you are attributing to me. I have copied my original post in it's entirety below in order to establish what I DID say. By the way, I would like to commend you on the excellent job you have done producing The Grandfathers Speak, Volumes 1 and 2 video documentaries. You have made a priceless contribution to the preservation and history of the FMA. I still hope to participate in one of your Gatherings when the finances and timing are right. It was discouraging to not be able to make it out when you had the other female fighter visiting from Europe a few years ago. Respectfully, Kristine Strasburger From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 08:05:11 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Clarification Just to clarify, my words were directed to Kristine when she said "FMA is dead in the philippines" (did Guro Inosanto say this? i read it somewhere) he is only telling what was told to him. he deserve respect as an elder in the FMA community, i dont believe many of us will have as many students as we do today if it wasnt for his work for the FMA arts. at the same time, its not fair to blame him for all the begative stuff we see today. but a lot of it came from him, and its not fair to act like it didnt." Marc, Here is my original and only post on the topic: Message: 7 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:17:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Kristine Strasburger kstrasburgerk@yahoo.com Subject: [Eskrima] Can't see the Kali tree for the Kali forest? Respectful greetings to all, and thanks for the thought-provoking discussions of late. Maybe I am being simple-minded here, but I just don't understand why people are not accepting of the previously stated (by more than one poster) explanation supposedly stemming from Guros Dan Inosanto and Ben Largusa themselves: That the term Kali as it is applied to the FMA's is simply a combination of two words (Kamot or Kamut and Lihot or Lihok) that give the meaning of "move of the hand". The fact that the word "kali" exists in a number of different languages in various forms and with various meanings would be totally irrelevant and coincidental in this case. It does not seem too far-fetched to me that this is the true source of the term Kali in the FMA's considering the way the FMA's have been taught and passed on before they were affected by modern commercialism, and the need for official names of styles/systems, ranking, titles, etc. I am not Filipino by descent, so I may be making a very limited overgeneralization here (and please excuse me if I am), but it has been my observation in 24 years of involvement in the FMA's that it is not uncommon for a Filipino teacher to "make up" or "create" a term to call something for the benefit of his western student/audience, not because he is trying to appear knowledgeable, but because the western mind craves a method for categorizing and filing information in a different way than the eastern mind does, and so he is trying to meet the needs of his western student. Obviously, there exists names, terms, etc. in the eastern arts, but there just seems to be a different approach to the naming, especially if you try to discern the world-view behind the physical and verbal expressions. (Just for the record, I acknowledge that plenty of people from all races make up terms for what they are teaching. My statement above was made to draw out the differences of the world-views between eastern and western thought, not the practices of races, per se., so no flame-throwing is necessary on this point, please.) As for the whole issue of "Kali" being a mother art, I would venture to say that Guro Inosanto might regret the phrasing he used in his book. Many writers wish they would have written some things differently in hindsight (Mark Wiley even stated so in his revised version of one of his editions), and this may be one of those cases. Guro Inosanto is one of the most highly respected individuals in the FMA, partly because he does not have a divisive personality. It does not seem to be in keeping with his long-standing reputation that he meant to imply Kali was something better or more pure when he used the term "mother art." It is plausible that Guro Inosanto was simply trying to express the differences between kada-anan (old style) and kabaroan (new style) in understandable terms for his English speaking audience. Keep in mind that this was a ground-breaking book on a relatively unknown topic in America at the time of publication, and writers always write with a particular audience in mind. In this case, it would not be unreasonable to say that the old style is the mother of the new style without implying something better or more pure about the old style or mother. Putting your thoughts in writing can be difficult, and it is too easy to mis-interpret the writer's thoughts and intentions when you can't get clarification and feedback. Just my two cents on the issue. It is not a waste of time to discuss and try to clarify this issue, but it certainly could become a waste of time and effort if the simplest explanation closest to the earliest published occurrences of the word Kali in relation to the FMA's is not even given honest consideration and discussion. Ideally we would have an official statement from Guro Inosanto himself (in print other than on the internet, which is too easily falsified, or on film (hint, hint, Crafty)) that would become a source of documentation for the simple creation of the word Kali from the combination of Kamut and Lihok, if that is indeed his understanding of the source of the word. Obviously, Guro Inosanto was not the first person to combine these words to form the term Kali, but he was certainly closer than most of us to sources such as Grandmaster Ilustrisimo at the time the term began to be used more specifically as an official name (for the benefit of the western mind???), and so he should have a pretty good idea whether the simply created descriptive term kali became "elevated" to the status of the official name "Kali' or not. Best Regards, Kristine Strasburger www.HeartlandEskrimaSchool.com --------------------------------- Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:09:38 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Dahong palay (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #171 - 12 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Bot, I do not know if any EDer has explained the "dahong palay". If some EDer did, those who missed the post might be interested to know that dahong palay (literally translated is rice leaf) is a snake that is commonly found in the rice fields in my village. It is easy to mistake them for a rice leaf because they do not grow that big. Despite being very common and despite villagers going to the rice fields barefooted, there was no instance of anybody getting bitten by it in my village. When my childhood friends and I go to the rice fields we make a lot of noise with a "kumpas-kumpasan" a straight stem of a small plant. When the leaves are removed, it is horsewhip-like. You cannot make a kumpas-kumpasan crack but you can make it whistle through the air before it hits the grass that is ahead of you. This makes the dahong palay slither away. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/29/2007 7:16:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Recently I came out of our practice area. I had ended practice and was carrying my two sticks and a dahong-palay when one of the maintenance personnel noticed what I was carrying and said, "O tapos na ang ensayo? (Practice is finished?)" He saw what I was carrying and while we were talking he called my dahong palay a - kalis. Interesting, no? I forgot to ask him what province he was from, but I will as soon as I see him again. This is from a guy about roughly ten to fifteen years older than me. Bot ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:37:51 -0400 From: "Brian Johns" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Tagalog question Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net De-lurking momentarily with a quick question for the Tagalog speakers on this list. What does "anok" mean ? I've heard that it means "son." I've also heard that it means "child." Which is it ? Or does it depend on the context ? Many thanks, Brian Johns Columbus, Ohio (soon to be Toronto, Canada) --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest