Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 07:28:12 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #173 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Tagalog question (mabagsikptk@aol.com) 2. Re: Indonesian equivalent of "Sandata" (bgdebuque) 3. Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack 6/24/07 (Marc Denny) 4. Re: Tagalog question (Felipe Jocano) 5. Re: Dahong palay (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #171 - 12 msgs) (Felipe Jocano) 6. Re: RE: Kali Source (Felipe Jocano) 7. Anak-child (GatPuno@aol.com) 8. Re: Tagalog question (james jr. sy) 9. Kali (Stephen Lamade) 10. Re: arnis and kung-fu (jay de leon) 11. Kali answer fro Kristine (gatpuno@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tagalog question Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 00:07:40 -0400 From: mabagsikptk@aol.com Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr Brian Johns, "ANAK" means son. "BATA" means child in Tagalog. Kiano Bobby -----Original Message----- From: Brian Johns To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tue, 29 May 2007 5:37 pm Subject: [Eskrima] Tagalog question De-lurking momentarily with a quick question for the Tagalog speakers  on this list.    What does "anok" mean ? I've heard that it means "son." I've also  heard that it means "child." Which is it ? Or does it depend on the  context ?    Many thanks,  Brian Johns  Columbus, Ohio (soon to be Toronto, Canada)  _______________________________________________  Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net  Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource  Standard disclaimers apply  Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net  ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 00:48:20 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Indonesian equivalent of "Sandata" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi GM Mat! The Indonesian equivalent of the Tagalog "sandata" is "senjata" (pronounced as "sen-dya-ta"). I cannot recall any Indonesian equivalent of "Pananandata" though. So I think your move to have it copyrighted was a good one. As I remember it, even the Shaolin Monks have already made an effort to have the word "Shaolin" copyrighted. I don't know the extent of their success so far though. > > Pananandata the system that I teach is derived from "sendata" a derivative > of an Indonesian word. When a prefix is attached to a root word, in Tagalog, > > usually, the first letter disappears. That is why there is no "s" in > pananandata. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 22:28:18 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack 6/24/07 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A Howl of Greeting: The rhythm of the seasons is with us and its time for the "Summer Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack". On behalf of the Council of Elders of the Dog Brothers, Dog Brothers Inc. Martial Arts hereby cordially invites all people of good spirit to its "Dog Brothers Summer Gathering of the Pack" at 11:00 AM on Sunday, June 24, 2007. Because this Gathering is going to be quite a bit different, I hope you will indulge me in being even more long-winded than usual. In an obscure park in San Clemente, California on Memorial Day weekend some 19 years ago, a "band of sweaty, smelly psychopaths with sticks" came together to fight for three days in a row. It was a different fight with a different vibration-- "Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact" (c) Thus was born the pack that became known as "The Dog Brothers". And now, through much continuing Adventure, here we are. And who are "we"? "We" are not only those who step onto the field to fight -- and "you " are not a mob that has come to be entertained with the pornography of violence like the mobs at the ancient Roman arenas. Indeed "we" includes "you"-- "you" are the Tribe that comes to witness its Warriors in the ritual space as they shine their spirits and prepare themselves to stand together to defend our land, women and children outside of the ritual space. Joining us at this Gathering will be National Geographic. Nat Geo, via the production company "Original Productions", will be making a one hour documentary about our spontaneously arisen tribe (Working title "The Tao of the Dog"). Why OP/Nat Geo and why now? As can be imagined, over the years I have had many people approach me with ideas for the Dog Brothers. Some of these ideas boiled down to variations of "Backyard Jackass". Some of the people who approached us were sincere in their understanding of what we are about, but their reach exceeded their grasp. Fame and fortune not being our motive, I have never felt a need or pressure to pursue this sort of thing. If it was meant to happen, it would happen. And now it seems that it is meant to happen. With Original Productions (OP) I feel we have the right people for the mission. OP's alpha Thom Beers and director Dan Jackson approached me back in 2005. Both impressed me. After reviewing a documentary Dan did about the US Military Academies (West Point, Annapolis, etc) we allowed OP to shoot was is now the clip on our website www.dogbrothers.com titled "Original Productions Pilot". Feedback from the Tribe about his feel in the clip for who we are uniformly was quite positive. Now OP has brought Nat Geo, whose corporate values we sense to be very good for us, to the mission of communicating "the Dog Brothers experience" outside of our own dimension. In some respects, a documentary by Nat Geo is a pretty big deal. In other respects, it is nothing at all. The presence of the cameras changes nothing of essence at all. We continue to be ourselves. Yes the Gathering will be held in a different place this time, but as the saying goes, "Wherever you go, there you are." And in another way, the presence of the cameras does change things. When "where you are" is out on the field at a Gathering, the experience of the juice of the witnessing tribe flowing through you turbocharges this powerful, indeed in some ways transformational, experience. For myself, I seek to connect with the these peak moments that I experienced as "Crafty Dog" as portals to the place in me that is forever young-- and this is the place within me that I will call upon should I ever be called upon to step forward as a Protector. In a similar vein, my hope is for those of you fighting at this Gathering to experience the juice generated by the witnessing eye of Nat Geo's cameras as increasing the power of the your inner experience. Because of the documentary, this "Dog Brothers Gathering" will be held at the Original Productions' warehouse (where they did the show "Monster Garage") at: 2435 N. Naomi St. Burbank, CA 91504 Use www.mapquest.com or a similar site to see exactly where this is. Director Dan Jackson is responsible for the fighting area and is closely conferring with me so that the fighting area is everything that it should be. We look forward to seating and viewing conditions being the best ever. This is not saying much I know :-) but so far it appears that there are some church pews laying around, Dan is talking about scaffolding with planks and perhaps some rented bleachers, etc. The feel will have a touch of "Thunderdome". We are looking for people's input into all this-- especially input from the fighters about the fight area. To contribute and/or to see what people are saying go to the discussion at http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1205.0 Many of you may remember our Gatherings held in the park in Hermosa Beach, which, although they were hosted at considerable expense, were always free to you our friends, our guests. However with a private facility involved we need to charge admission of $15. We ask that you still consider yourselves to be our friends, our guests, as members of our extended Tribe-- not customers. The Magic Words: The MAGIC WORDS: "No judges, no referees, no trophies. One rule only: Be friends at the end of the day. This means our goal is that no one spends the night in the hospital. Our goal is that everyone leaves with the IQ with which they came. No suing no one for no reason for nothing no how no way! Real Contact Stickfighting is Dangerous and only you are responsible for you, so protect yourself at all times. All copyright belongs to Dog Brothers Inc. CA law applies." THIS MATTER OF ACCEPTING THE RISK APPLIES TO THOSE OF YOU OBSERVING AS WELL!!! For example, sticks, and fights for that matter, may go flying into the crowd. Parents should consider things like this in deciding whether a child is old enough to bring along and/or deciding on from where to observe the event. If a stick or a fight comes careening your way-get out of the way! If you are sitting in or near the front row, we will not make fun of you if you wear protective headgear! This matter of copyright is of particular importance with this Gathering due to the Nat Geo documentary. As always, NO VIDEO CAMERAS and NO DUAL PURPOSE CAMERAS WILL BE ALLOWED. If you see someone cheating, please let us know. OP will be at the door with some sort of legal release giving it permission to have you (fighters & audience members) appear in the documentary, not sue them, etc. At this Gathering, we will continue starting the knife fights with a handshake and the knives undrawn and analogous ideas. Concerning the knife fighting, there is a relevant thread at http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1296.0 "Shocknife" has promised us a couple of its newest model electric knives and so it looks like we will be able to have electric knife vs. electric knife fights. Perhaps this will help induce more realistic behavior during the knife fights! Again we encourage you to fight knife versus stick-- the stick versus electric knife fight last time was a great success (as was the stick versus cattle prod) and the electric knife will again be available. Stick vs. knife has been one of perennial questions of the FMA, so let's continue the research! Also, please feel free to hide a knife on your person and surprise your opponent with it during the stickfights. Remember that you may fight with weapons other than a stick if you can find someone willing to go against you. Please consider staff, double stick, and anything else. In order to more deeply explore certain variables, fighters may agree to "no grappling" rules. In staff fights, the fighters may wear wrestling type ear guards under the fencing masks. Currently we have a fighter intending to bring a "sling blade", one offering to fight with whip, and rumor of a hand-held vacuum cleaner. The thread http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1205.50 is where fighters can get in touch with each other about these things. Drummer Henrik Jacobsen will be with us again, and Charles Telerant will be joining him. (You can find a clip of Charles rapping on the Steve Harvey show at www.charlestelerant.com ) Brent Lewis sends his regrets and best wishes, but he will be in Hawaii for a wedding. As always, there is no charge for fighters but FIGHTERS MUST PRE-REGISTER, even if they have fought before. WE WILL BE RUTHLESS ON THIS! The Fighter's Registration form can be found on the website and MUST be filled out whether you have fought before or not. For all Fighter Registration matters, please contact Cindy at info@dogbrothers.com 310-540-6853. You are not registered until your name appears on the list of registered fighters on the website!!! As I write this (May 29th) we already have 43 fighters listed (from throughout the US, Canada, Switzerland, Germany, England, Scotland, Australia, Fiji) which is the most we have ever had this far in advance. As Gathering time approaches our "Vice President in Charge of Reality" Cindy will be very busy. To make sure that your registration gets through, we strongly suggest that you register as far in advance as possible. There will be a get together for Fighters, Family, and Friends at a local establishment afterwards. We will post the details as we have them on the abovementioned thread on our Forum. The Adventure continues!!! "Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact" (c) Crafty Dog Guiding Force of the Dog Brothers Dog Brothers Inc. Martial Arts info@dogbrothers.com PS: This just in: Top Dog will be there and Salty Dog is working on it! --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 23:17:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tagalog question To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Brian; Spel chek (hehehe) - ok, it's "anak" not "anok." Anak means child. It's not a gender or sex-specific term in Tagalog in the same way that "son" or "daughter" are in English. A son is "anak na lalaki" or male child; a daughter is "anak na babae" or female child. --- Brian Johns wrote: > De-lurking momentarily with a quick question for the > Tagalog speakers > on this list. > > What does "anok" mean ? I've heard that it means > "son." I've also > heard that it means "child." Which is it ? Or does > it depend on the > context ? > > Many thanks, > Brian Johns > Columbus, Ohio (soon to be Toronto, Canada) > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 23:42:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Dahong palay (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #171 - 12 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi PG Mat: Hmm, you're right, I should have explained what a dahong palay is :-) it did appear that I came out of our practice area with a snake (!) (I can just hear it now - Jeez, Bot, what's with the snake? FMA has flexible weapons but this is something else ;-> Practicing with a snake?!? It takes flexibility to a whole new level ;-> hasn't anyone heard yet? This is snake style arnis! I better prepare for any snake jokes that whip my way ;-P ) Ok seriously now, for the ED, the dahong palay I referred to in my post is a bladed weapon, somewhat narrow (around 1 1/2 inches) and 28-29 inches in length. I'm not sure about the thickness, but it seems thick enough to withstand a lot of use. It curves slightly downward toward the tip and is weighted towards that end as well. The hilt curves slightly downward relative to the blade, so from a distance, there is slightly new moon shape to the entire sword. There is no guard on the hilt. The way the blade is weighted, it cuts downward naturally, so given the movements of our style of arnis, we found it useful My friends and I had our dahong palay made courtesy of the uncle of one of our friends and clubmember. The panday or smith is from Quezon province. As far as I understand, many of his relatives were also arnisadors and swordspeople. The smith was also an arnisador (if I got it right). He made a sword as a gift for his nephew (our friend) when our friend won the gold medal as part of the Philippine team in the men's group synchronized forms competition in arnis during the 2005 SEA Games held here. When we saw what he had, we all had to have one (naturally!) and now all the senior club members have one each (some have two). The way I understand this, the dahong palay blade is an all-around tool, being a farm implement that doubles as a wicked sword. Perhaps the shape has something to do with the snake? I know my friend uses one of his dahong palay (he has at least two) for some of his chores. Snake-ily yours ;-P Bot --- Pananandta@aol.com wrote: > Hi Bot, > > I do not know if any EDer has explained the "dahong > palay". If some EDer > did, those who missed the post might be interested > to know that dahong palay > (literally translated is rice leaf) is a snake that > is commonly found in the > rice fields in my village. It is easy to mistake > them for a rice leaf because > they do not grow that big. > > Despite being very common and despite villagers > going to the rice fields > barefooted, there was no instance of anybody getting > bitten by it in my village. > > When my childhood friends and I go to the rice > fields we make a lot of noise > with a "kumpas-kumpasan" a straight stem of a small > plant. When the leaves > are removed, it is horsewhip-like. You cannot make a > kumpas-kumpasan crack but > you can make it whistle through the air before it > hits the grass that is > ahead of you. This makes the dahong palay slither > away. > > APMarinas Sr. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 23:46:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Kali Source To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Steve: There's a certain Mushtaq Ali Shah who's a pesilat and a member of the egroup silatworld. Is this the same person? Am very curious, same name... Bot --- "Van Harn, Steve" wrote: > No, not quite correct. My Guru Mushtaq Ali trained > in the early '60s as > a youth alongside Rashid (as his partner) with > Rashid's father, Guru > Abdasalaam. > It was Guru Abdalsalaam who trained in Marawi and > Zambaoanga (not Jolo > as I incorrectly posted earlier)in his youth. > In #2 HE refers to Guru Abdalsalaam and #4 is > correct. > Guru Mushtaq also supplied to me yesterday the name > most often used by > Guru Abdalsalaam. > He called it "this is how you fight" most of the > time. > > Steve ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 7 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 08:10:13 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Anak-child Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net John, The proper spelling is "anak" and it means child, it could beused either son or daughter. If yoou want to be specific, we call it "Anak na lalaki, or lalaking Anak" means "Son", and "Babaeng Anak or Anak na babae" means ""Daughter". But don't be confused using the other word for a child or young child called "Bata" (Batang lalaki -young boy and Batang babae-young girl). Hope it's help, > > De-lurking momentarily with a quick question for the Tagalog speakers > on this list. > > What does "anok" mean ? I've heard that it means "son." I've also > heard that it means "child." Which is it ? Or does it depend on the > context ? > > Many thanks, > Brian Johns > Columbus, Ohio (soon to be Toronto, Canada) > Good start of learning Tagalog, be well,, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 05:25:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tagalog question To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Brian, It's anak, not anok. Anak "child" is unisex, can refer to both son and daughter. Hope that helps. JAMES Brian Johns wrote: De-lurking momentarily with a quick question for the Tagalog speakers on this list. What does "anok" mean ? I've heard that it means "son." I've also heard that it means "child." Which is it ? Or does it depend on the context ? Many thanks, Brian Johns Columbus, Ohio (soon to be Toronto, Canada) _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 13:50:39 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Kim wrote that "It is not a waste of time to discuss and try to clarify this issue, but it certainly could become a waste of time and effort if the simplest explanation closest to the earliest published occurrences of the word Kali in relation to the FMA's is not even given honest consideration and discussion." An even simpler explanation might be that Dan Insosanto learned the term from Ben Largusa and that out of respect for GM Villabrille has chosen not to comment publicly about a term that did not have any political connotations back when it was originally published. With respect to the additional claim that Kali is the "mother art" of other Filipino martial arts systems (a claim not made by Dan Inosanto, I believe), I think that most reasonable individuals treat this claim in much the same matter as they consider claims of "secret caves" and "Blind Princesses," etc., i.e. we can respect the myths of other martial arts without necessarily subscribing to them. Kali is in fact a "brand" name used for marketing, and if there are in fact subsidiary reasons for using this term instead of other terms, the fact remains most of the general public are not aware of the issue and most experienced practitioners don't care; most of the heat (but not the light) is generated by junior practitioners who should spend more time practicing their art instead of arguing about what to call it. In saying this I do not mean to slight anyone whom, as Kim states, has taken the time to try to clarify the issue: blessed be the peacemakers. I just think that there is a law of diminished returns when seeking to convert hay into gold. Best, Steve Lamade _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 08:13:14 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] arnis and kung-fu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net James: Please help me with this clarification. Since Steve does not capitalize "modern arnis," I guess he means arnis in general, not Remy Presas's Modern Arnis. In which case, can we not say a few specific styles of FMA were influenced by kung-fu (just like karate, judo, etc.)? Some styles that come to mind include possibly Lapunti, pronius, etc., simply because the founders were (possibly among other skills) kung-fu stylists? Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com "james jr. sy" wrote: Hi Steve, No Chinese kung fu animals influence. Just Judo, Karate, and Jujutsu/Combat Judo. JAMES steve mulligan wrote: Hello, can anyone tell me if modern arnis was influenced in anyway by the animal styles of kung-fu..... thanks, Steve _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 11 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 10:52:53 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Kali answer fro Kristine Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Christine, this is is one of the problem. You want us to accept this previously stated about the "Kali" explanation?. Answer: Yes we accept we like or not, we accept. But we are only contradicting the claimed: If it's came from the word "Kamut" "Lihok" okay is a Visayan word. Who claimed "Villabrille" and "Largusa"? Both of them expalined is Visayan, therefore is still no ground to be the "mother arts" right? We dont blamed Guro Inosanto, we are just stating the fact, that his instructoir make a "Big Boboo" but no one want on "Kali" side want to acept that. In our Languages, yes but the problem is, there i no "Kali" word ever find in multi'Dialect country (Philippines). your original post: Maybe I am being simple-minded here, but I just don't understand why people are not accepting of the previously stated (by more than one poster) explanation supposedly stemming from Guros Dan Inosanto and Ben Largusa themselves: That the term Kali as it is applied to the FMA's is simply a combination of two words (Kamot or Kamut and Lihot or Lihok) that give the meaning of "move of the hand". The fact that the word "kali" exists in a number of different languages in various forms and with various meanings would be totally irrelevant and coincidental in this case. Answer: This is your opinon and youy entitle for that opinion. But we are discussing here is not opinon, is the facts. I grow up to this arts, from the day that I can hold or grip a weapon, the training begun, but in my lifetime studies of the arts, I am not en-counter masters in the Philippines used "Kali" as FMA only when i came here, besides reading on "Remy Presas" book of Modern Arnis and Yambao is the only one I see stated that "Kali" is the name of the arts of Arnis before. But we are not just accepting such claimed. Becaused we need proven fact, that sometimes ago, did "Kali" exist in the Philippines. And so far, none, nada, nothing, why do you think we are trying to straight this up? To make sure the "Kali" usage and claimed can be changes to just another word of FMA. Not the "pure" the first art the mother arts of FMA. Very true, in some measure, so many people questioned my authenticity of the "Buno" word, that their "no" Buno word in our dictionary, but I proved it it does exist in our dialect and our dictionary. Now more Filipino using the word like before. Dumog in Visaya - wrestling, is not in Tagalog the usual meaning if this word in Tagalog is "Dumog, Dagsa, Sankatutak-meaning massive. Did we ever questioned the word means, No" becaused its is clearly stated was "Visayan word for Wrestling". Now, you see it, many of our comrads from Visayan already speak out, about the word "KALI" and all we heard from them is "no" Kali in their dialect, the Mindanao or Muslim comrads said their is no "Kali" in their language too. So where we can find an answer, this the reason why we are suggesting, let be more practical of what we used and we claimed. No dis-respect to GM Largusa, but I heard him talking abou it on Grandfathers speaks, the "Kali" is the mother arts. So he so sure that Philippines is all 'Visayan" the way he talk about it, that make me wonder what he knows about the Filipino in general? Your Original post: It does not seem too far-fetched to me that this is the true source of the term Kali in the FMA's considering the way the FMA's have been taught and passed on before they were affected by modern commercialism, and the need for official names of styles/systems, ranking, titles, etc. I am not Filipino by descent, so I may be making a very limited overgeneralization here (and please excuse me if I am), but it has been my observation in 24 years of involvement in the FMA's that it is not uncommon for a Filipino teacher to "make up" or "create" a term to call something for the benefit of his western student/audience, not because he is trying to appear knowledgeable, but because the western mind craves a method for categorizing and filing information in a different way than the eastern mind does, and so he is trying to meet the needs of his western student. Answer: I would like to know where it existence, and why it s related to our FMA? original post: Obviously, there exists names, terms, etc. in the eastern arts, but there just seems to be a different approach to the naming, especially if you try to discern the world-view behind the physical and verbal expressions. (Just for the record, I acknowledge that plenty of people from all races make up terms for what they are teaching. My statement above was made to draw out the differences of the world-views between eastern and western thought, not the practices of races, per se., so no flame-throwing is necessary on this point, please.) Answer: Probabay but would like to hear it form the author himself. We know that, but the question here is not his "higly respected images" right? The case is mis-presentation of the word "Kali" nothing else. your original post: As for the whole issue of "Kali" being a mother art, I would venture to say that Guro Inosanto might regret the phrasing he used in his book. Many writers wish they would have written some things differently in hindsight (Mark Wiley even stated so in his revised version of one of his editions), and this may be one of those cases. Guro Inosanto is one of the most highly respected individuals in the FMA, partly because he does not have a divisive personality. It does not seem to be in keeping with his long-standing reputation that he meant to imply Kali was something better or more pure when he used the term "mother art." Answer: It is true, is ground breaking book in FMA and we are thankful for that. In regards of the Kadaanan,& kabaroan is un-reasonable to other speaking dialect, becaused they dont understand the words. Therefore need to explained it more broader than just a word, dont you think? Is like what I said that two Filipino "Visayan and Tagalog" their arguing in a word "Kamut" for example, Visayan said is hand, Tagalog said "Scratch' so that make the two not to agree if both of them dont understand each other? It make sense also if you talking the two words from Luzon "Kadaanan" "The old Way" to us sometimes is "Nakasanayan" "The old Practiced" and "Kabaroan" "The New Cloths" literally, but "the new way" is the use translation. kabaroan also translated in Tagalog as Kalipi, Kalahi, (same race) Kauri (same gender). your original post: It is plausible that Guro Inosanto was simply trying to express the differences between kada-anan (old style) and kabaroan (new style) in understandable terms for his English speaking audience. Keep in mind that this was a ground-breaking book on a relatively unknown topic in America at the time of publication, and writers always write with a particular audience in mind. In this case, it would not be unreasonable to say that the old style is the mother of the new style without implying something better or more pure about the old style or mother. Putting your thoughts in writing can be difficult, and it is too easy to mis-interpret the writer's thoughts and intentions when you can't get clarification and feedback. Just my two cents on the issue. answer: No we give them honest consideration, they dont. It occurs and published a word without giving where he ever find the "words" not search more of the meaning of this and just simply assume that this is it. Is a discussable matter and questionable. your original post: It is not a waste of time to discuss and try to clarify this issue, but it certainly could become a waste of time and effort if the simplest explanation closest to the earliest published occurrences of the word Kali in relation to the FMA's is not even given honest consideration and discussion. Your oringal post: This is would be a great deal, but I know its hard un-less someone has the guts to asked him to do that. He is a busy man to take a minute and waste him time to us. But if someone can do that, i would love to read and hear it direct from him, if that make any difference to the question. Well, even we heard from him, is that would change our feeling being claimed that the "Kali" is being said the mother arts? No becaused it is not. your original post: Ideally we would have an official statement from Guro Inosanto himself (in print other than on the internet, which is too easily falsified, or on film (hint, hint, Crafty)) that would become a source of documentation for the simple creation of the word Kali from the combination of Kamut and Lihok, if that is indeed his understanding of the source of the word. Obviously, Guro Inosanto was not the first person to combine these words to form the term Kali, but he was certainly closer than most of us to sources such as Grandmaster Ilustrisimo at the time the term began to be used more specifically as an official name (for the benefit of the western mind???), and so he should have a pretty good idea whether the simply created descriptive term kali became "elevated" to the status of the official name "Kali' or not. Best Regards, Kristine Strasburger www.HeartlandEskrimaSchool.com Kristine, nice argument, though and have to give you credit. But until, the day of the "Kali" is proven the mother arts, we still going to study the facts and contradict the neame to be the mother arts. Salamat, be well, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest