Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 02:58:33 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #178 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: A couple of points (Red Gonzales) 2. Man armed with knife kills 10 in Philippines (Eskrima-FMA) 3. Re: Hypothetical FMA Family Tree (bgdebuque) 4. Re: A couple of points (Felipe Jocano) 5. Re: Hypothetical FMA Family Tree (Felipe Jocano) 6. Re: A couple of points (Felipe Jocano) 7. karatefication or arnisification (Felipe Jocano) 8. Re: Hypothetical FMA Family Tree (Jonathan Kessler) 9. Re: Elmer Montoyo (Bo Kaner) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 00:19:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Red Gonzales Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A couple of points To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hello marc crafty dog, from what I understood in your post, your justification for the use of the name kali and your subsequent belief that it is not fraudulent are: A. yambao's book (not mirafuente's) B. filipino words and names change quite regularly. C. the fact that arnis appeared first in florante at laura (1831) and kali only first appeared in yambao's book (1957) do not prove anything. D. dan inosanto wasn't the one who claimed that kali was the mother art. E. john lacoste was the source of inosanto's use of the term kali. In reference to these points, i'd like to point out to you some things. i'm hoping you can shed some light to them. 1. yambao used tagalog. kali from your parlance is cebuano. how do you connect the kali from stockton to yambao's kali? 2. the appearance of the word kali in yambao's book doesn't necessarily mean it is the same kali that you have there. 3. the names of the techniques discussed in yambao's book are entirely different from what is used in your mother art. 4. the filipinos who migrated to stockton & were associated with inosanto were cebuanos not tagalog. 5. yes, filipino words and names change quite regularly. that's why you have gaje use arnis before and when kali became popular, adopted it. 6. so since filipino words change often is it alright to change escrima to kali and claim it as the mother art? 7. so since filipino words change often can we say that your kali name is not ancient but modern? using your logic, if it was ancient, we won't have the word kali today. 8. if you don't believe florante at laura as proof, what would you believe in? 9. so far the best evidence kali can offer is yambao's book, which is 20th century. don't you have anything older, maybe something from sri vishaya empire? Ancient things need ancient proof. 10. florante and laura is definitely older than yambao's book, don't you think? 11. whether it was inosanto who claimed or not it has no bearing to the issue on the authenticity of the claims of kali. 12. whether inosanto got the kali name from villabrille, lacoste, or largusa it has no bearing to the issue on the authenticity of the claims of kali. 13. what you're trying to say is here is that largusa told inosanto that kali is the mother art and inosanto didn't bother to check it out? 14. lacoste was cebuano. kali for cebuano is to dig. 15. no kali is mentioned for lacoste entry in inosanto's book. Only escrima. 16. kali do exist in the philippines but not the way kali is claimed to be. digging, eagle, etc. has nothing to do with FMA. 17. if filipinos don't use kali as name for martial arts in the philippines, why can't you accept it? 18. and why can't you accept that the kali name you use came from america? 19. yes something existed before the spaniards and we all know it was not named kali. 20. give us concrete proof that the name kali you and inosanto promote have historical grounding in the philippines and we will believe you. Salamat. RED Marc Denny wrote: Woof All: As this conversation continues, I'd like to interject a couple of points quickly. 1) Just as is being discussed fully here that the Kali mother art claim irks those it irks, the current claim by some that the word Kali never existed and is some sort of fraud generated by some Filipinos in Stockton, CA, USA can irk those of us who do use the term. For this poor humble clueless American dog who is terrified of being turned into roadkill trying to navigate the freeways of this perennial conversation, the point that seems as yet unanswered by those who assert that the term itself is a fraud is the fact of the Mirafuentes/Yambao book. 2) As a matter of logic, the question of whether there was SOMETHING prior to the arrival of the Spaniards (seems to me that there surely must have been) is separate from the issue of its name(s). As best as I can tell, in the fecund soup of Filipino linguistics, words and names change quite regularly at a rather rapid clip all the time. Thus, the fact that the references to Arnis prior to Mirafuentes/Yamboa do not prove anything about whether there was an art prior to the Spaniards and whether that something has survived in some form or other until today. 3) I am glad to see that it now seems to be understood that Guro Inosanto was quoting GM Largusa about the history, mother art, etc. and was not taking a position himself. I would like to point out though that although Villabrille-Largusa Kali is one of the main FMA systems to influence Inosanto Blend, the use of the term Kali by Guro Inosanto I would ascribe principally to its use by his principal teacher, Manong John Lacoste, who as has been already noted in this conversation, also used the term eskrima. I could be wrong in this, but my sense of things is that Manong Lacoste did not use the two interchangeably. I do know that as I was packing up my books to empty my office the other day that I ran across my Inosanto Blend Instructor notebook the other day, and the heading for Lacoste, was Kali, not eskrima. In summary: the term Kali did exist in the Philippines. I find unpersuasive the campaign by some researchers that the term itself is some sort of fraud, generated in America or elsewhere. Whatever its names were, "something" existed prior to the Spaniards arrival. Whether some form of that something survives with little or no Spanish influence I have not a clue. Guro Inosanto's use of the term Kali I understand principally to be due to the influence of his teacher Manong John Lacoste. The Adventure continues, Marc/Crafty Dog PS: Kristine, sorry I misascribed certain passage to you! _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://ph.mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:41:41 -0700 From: Eskrima-FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Man armed with knife kills 10 in Philippines Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Man armed with knife kills 10 in Philippines June 2, 2007 MANILA, Philippines - A man armed with a 21-inch-long knife killed 10 people, including seven children, and wounded 14 others in a rampage early Saturday in a central Philippine province, police said. The man first attacked and wounded five members of his cousin's family with whom he lived in a remote village outside Calbayog city in central Samar province at around 2 a.m. local time, said Senior Police Officer Jessie Gianan, desk officer at the Calbayog police station. Two of the cousin's sons, aged 5 and 7, died later at a hospital, he said. The man then barged into a neighbor's house, where he stabbed and hacked to death a 37-year-old pregnant woman and her three daughters and two sons, aged 1 to 9. Two daughters survived, Gianan said by telephone. He entered two other homes where five people were sleeping, killing two men, and then returned to a wake where he had been drinking earlier and attacked everyone in his path, Gianan said. A total of 14 people were wounded, he said. The man then surrendered to another villager who turned him over to the authorities. It was not immediately clear what prompted the rampage. The pregnant woman's husband apparently quarreled earlier with the assailant at the wake. The husband, a fisherman, was at the Calbayog fishing port when the attack occurred, a niece of the woman said by telephone from a local funeral parlor. She gave no other details. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 10:54:38 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Hypothetical FMA Family Tree Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You have a good point there. That's why we should probably refer to it as the "Father Art" instead... =[:->] Now, don't take this as a a blanket endorsement from my part of the term "Kali". Whether or not it is the correct term is still one big "gray area". As I have said several times before though, there is enough cultural basis to use the term. There is probably no argument among us, however, that there exists a form of martial art among non-Muslim lowland Filipinos before they were colonized by Spain towards the end of the 16th Century. That, is the art I would like to refer to as the "Father Art". Inasmuch as Pre-Hispanic Filipino culture is substantially Malay, it probably had a Malay-sounding name (or names). Who is the "Mother Art" then? Well, if we just follow the tide of history, it has to be the Spanish Fighting Arts - the art behind the swish of the Toledo blade, the Rapier, the Spanish Cane, the Navaja knife, and the Flamenco knife. Judging by the number of people who speak Spanish today, it is probably one of the most effective fighting art the world has ever seen. Ergo, I am proud to acknowledge it as part of the FMA heritage. Who are the children? The children are today's FMA styles - Arnis, Escrima, Kali, Estocada, Baston, etc. (just take note how many of them have Spanish-sounding names). Collectively, however, they are classified as "FMA" - which implies the term is now the de facto "family name" of the art. To sum it up: Father Art (pre-Hispanic fighting styles with Malay-sounding name/names) + Mother Art (Spanish Fighting Styles with Spanish names) = Descendant Art (Hispanic/Malay first name; American last name - "FMA") Don't you find it interesting how the evolution of the FMA merely mirrors the history of the Filipino People itself?.... =[:->] Who are the Uncles and Aunts then? These are the other fighting arts which influenced the FMA - Western boxing, Chinese Kung Fu, Malay Silat, Okinawan karate, Japanese Karate, Korean Karate, etc. CAVEAT: The foregoing "family tree" is only applicable to the Hispanized areas of the Philippines. Our brothers in the South who were never completely subdued by the Toledo Blade would have a slightly different one. By lineage though their last name should also be "FMA". Message: 10 > Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 19:45:55 -0700 > From: "Terrence David Reyes" > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] Kali- The Mother Art > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Much has been written and discussed on Kali as the Mother Art, yet > nothing written nor discussed regarding the "Father" art. I'd also be > interested in the origins of the brother and sister arts too, not to > mention the Uncle and Auntie arts. Save for another time I gather, > > Best Regards, > David Reyes > Stockton, CA --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:43:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A couple of points To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Marc; The only problem with Mirafuente's chapter in Yambao's book is that he did not cite any sources for his assertion of the term kali being used for what would become FMA before the Spanish contact. Hence this conversation (with all the heat and light that goes with it). That the book itself exists, no doubt - what is of interest to those who are interested is - upon what basis did he make that statement? Even if there were no bibliographic entries at the end of his chapter, reference to oral history, interviews with older practitioners etc. would have been helpful. Books are wonderful things (this from a book lover), but as repositories of information, they are limited by the persons who wrote them. Which is why we inevitably ask tough questions about who wrote what and where and when and why and how. Granted, it may be unfair to judge Mirafuente's chapter by today's standards, but still, the lack of citation is frustrating. Hence the inferences about the source of the name and whether it should have an 's' at the end or not, etc. In trying to remember the paths which this conversation took, I am doing my best to recall when and who said the term kali was a fraud generated by some Filipinos in Stockton, as you said... Be assured though that I will do my best not to run over any dogs, whatever the nationality :-) Bot --- Marc Denny wrote: > Woof All: > > As this conversation continues, I'd like to > interject a couple of points > quickly. > > 1) Just as is being discussed fully here that the > Kali mother art claim irks > those it irks, the current claim by some that the > word Kali never existed > and is some sort of fraud generated by some > Filipinos in Stockton, CA, USA > can irk those of us who do use the term. For this > poor humble clueless > American dog who is terrified of being turned into > roadkill trying to > navigate the freeways of this perennial > conversation, the point that seems > as yet unanswered by those who assert that the term > itself is a fraud is the > fact of the Mirafuentes/Yambao book. > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:48:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Hypothetical FMA Family Tree To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net With my tongue in my cheek and a wink in my eye, I say "Here's to reunions!" :-) now hopefully the various family members can get along peacefully... One of the kids, ;-P Bot --- bgdebuque wrote: > You have a good point there. > > That's why we should probably refer to it as the > "Father Art" instead... > =[:->] > > Now, don't take this as a a blanket endorsement from > my part of the term > "Kali". Whether or not it is the correct term is > still one big "gray > area". As I have said several times before though, > there is enough > cultural basis to use the term. > > There is probably no argument among us, however, > that there exists a form of > martial art among non-Muslim lowland Filipinos > before they were colonized by > Spain towards the end of the 16th Century. That, is > the art I would like to > refer to as the "Father Art". Inasmuch as > Pre-Hispanic Filipino culture is > substantially Malay, it probably had a > Malay-sounding name (or names). > > Who is the "Mother Art" then? Well, if we just > follow the tide of history, > it has to be the Spanish Fighting Arts - the art > behind the swish of the > Toledo blade, the Rapier, the Spanish Cane, the > Navaja knife, and the > Flamenco knife. Judging by the number of people who > speak Spanish today, it > is probably one of the most effective fighting art > the world has ever seen. > Ergo, I am proud to acknowledge it as part of the > FMA heritage. > > Who are the children? The children are today's FMA > styles - Arnis, > Escrima, Kali, Estocada, Baston, etc. (just take > note how many of them have > Spanish-sounding names). Collectively, however, > they are classified as > "FMA" - which implies the term is now the de facto > "family name" of the > art. > > To sum it up: > > Father Art (pre-Hispanic fighting styles with > Malay-sounding name/names) > > + > > Mother Art (Spanish Fighting Styles with Spanish > names) > > = > > Descendant Art (Hispanic/Malay first name; American > last name - "FMA") > > Don't you find it interesting how the evolution of > the FMA merely mirrors > the history of the Filipino People itself?.... > =[:->] > > Who are the Uncles and Aunts then? These are the > other fighting arts which > influenced the FMA - Western boxing, Chinese Kung > Fu, Malay Silat, Okinawan > karate, Japanese Karate, Korean Karate, etc. > > CAVEAT: The foregoing "family tree" is only > applicable to the Hispanized > areas of the Philippines. Our brothers in the South > who were never > completely subdued by the Toledo Blade would have a > slightly different one. > By lineage though their last name should also be > "FMA". > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:58:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A couple of points To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi again, Marc: While rereading your post, I just thought I would also comment on this point: I think the attribution of the claim of kali-the-mother-art to Dan Inosanto was due to the chapter on Ben Largusa in his book. Hence the conflation of the two, i.e., the remark was also attributed to Dan Inosanto. Since the book was co-authored by him, it would be easy for people to think that he made the claim as well. Now I said I think...therefore I could be wrong in my analysis... Bot --- Marc Denny wrote: > Woof All: > > As this conversation continues, I'd like to > interject a couple of points > quickly. > >> > 3) I am glad to see that it now seems to be > understood that Guro Inosanto > was quoting GM Largusa about the history, mother > art, etc. and was not > taking a position himself. I would like to point > out though that although > Villabrille-Largusa Kali is one of the main FMA > systems to influence > Inosanto Blend, the use of the term Kali by Guro > Inosanto I would ascribe > principally to its use by his principal teacher, > Manong John Lacoste, who as > has been already noted in this conversation, also > used the term eskrima. I > could be wrong in this, but my sense of things is > that Manong Lacoste did > not use the two interchangeably. I do know that as > I was packing up my > books to empty my office the other day that I ran > across my Inosanto Blend > Instructor notebook the other day, and the heading > for Lacoste, was Kali, > not eskrima. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:10:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] karatefication or arnisification Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Karate is still popular here in the Philippines, and its interesting to note how many Pinoy arnisadors are/were dan-ranked karate practitioners. For that matter, many non-Pinoys as well. I have a question for everyone: if you had ever practiced karate and arnis together, has one influenced the other? In what way? For instance, has arnis been karatefied, so to speak? I would suppose it has to some extent, given the use of belts, uniforms, etc by many arnis systems - but if you could call this karatefication, has it also expressed itself in some other way? On the other hand, has your practice of karate been arnisified, so to speak (what a lousy term, but what the hey, until someone suggests a better one)? As in drills and kumite that have a flowing flavor akin to espada y daga etc.? Comments, observations, disagreements? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:48:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Kessler Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Hypothetical FMA Family Tree To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Here's to reunions!" :-) I volunteer my brother Norm to bring the Adobo! Gabe brings the Margaritas! I'll fire up the grill :-) JK Felipe Jocano wrote: With my tongue in my cheek and a wink in my eye, I say "Here's to reunions!" :-) now hopefully the various family members can get along peacefully... One of the kids, ;-P Bot --- bgdebuque wrote: > You have a good point there. > > That's why we should probably refer to it as the > "Father Art" instead... > =[:->] > > Now, don't take this as a a blanket endorsement from > my part of the term > "Kali". Whether or not it is the correct term is > still one big "gray > area". As I have said several times before though, > there is enough > cultural basis to use the term. > > There is probably no argument among us, however, > that there exists a form of > martial art among non-Muslim lowland Filipinos > before they were colonized by > Spain towards the end of the 16th Century. That, is > the art I would like to > refer to as the "Father Art". Inasmuch as > Pre-Hispanic Filipino culture is > substantially Malay, it probably had a > Malay-sounding name (or names). > > Who is the "Mother Art" then? Well, if we just > follow the tide of history, > it has to be the Spanish Fighting Arts - the art > behind the swish of the > Toledo blade, the Rapier, the Spanish Cane, the > Navaja knife, and the > Flamenco knife. Judging by the number of people who > speak Spanish today, it > is probably one of the most effective fighting art > the world has ever seen. > Ergo, I am proud to acknowledge it as part of the > FMA heritage. > > Who are the children? The children are today's FMA > styles - Arnis, > Escrima, Kali, Estocada, Baston, etc. (just take > note how many of them have > Spanish-sounding names). Collectively, however, > they are classified as > "FMA" - which implies the term is now the de facto > "family name" of the > art. > > To sum it up: > > Father Art (pre-Hispanic fighting styles with > Malay-sounding name/names) > > + > > Mother Art (Spanish Fighting Styles with Spanish > names) > > = > > Descendant Art (Hispanic/Malay first name; American > last name - "FMA") > > Don't you find it interesting how the evolution of > the FMA merely mirrors > the history of the Filipino People itself?.... > =[:->] > > Who are the Uncles and Aunts then? These are the > other fighting arts which > influenced the FMA - Western boxing, Chinese Kung > Fu, Malay Silat, Okinawan > karate, Japanese Karate, Korean Karate, etc. > > CAVEAT: The foregoing "family tree" is only > applicable to the Hispanized > areas of the Philippines. Our brothers in the South > who were never > completely subdued by the Toledo Blade would have a > slightly different one. > By lineage though their last name should also be > "FMA". > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 18:07:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Bo Kaner To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Elmer Montoyo Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net bgdebuque, howdee, i saw your inquiry re: elmer montoyo. we meet every saturday morning at his gym at ymca bacolod practicing original tapado. elmer is still as strong as ever. he still enjoys playing basketball. yes, he still can put off a lighted candle with his palm heel strike 12 inches from the candle. he still performs those pyung ahn katas as if he is in his twenties. still teaches tang soo do. sorry, james if I answered for you in this mail. ha ha ha anyway, we are still practicing here. bo --------------------------------- Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest