Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 06:31:01 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #179 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Kali and other Tagalog words (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #163 - 16 msgs) (james jr. sy) 2. Re: Re: Kali (james jr. sy) 3. Re: Kali - River (james jr. sy) 4. Re: Kali (james jr. sy) 5. Re: Arnis and Kung Fu (james jr. sy) 6. Re: A couple of points (james jr. sy) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 04:18:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali and other Tagalog words (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #163 - 16 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello PG Mat, Some loose ends of the Mother Art hypothesis would be as follows: 1. Pre-Hispanic Philippines didn’t have a national government 2. And thus, do not have a national language. 3. Without a national language, how can one word become the original term and by extension, the Mother Art of all FMA? 4. As PG Mat pointed out, there are “local” words that outsiders would not know of. 5. So if Kali was a local word, then it could not have been the original term for FMA. JAMES Pananandta@aol.com wrote: It is common knowledge that Tagalog is the Philippines national language. There is the literary Tagalog that was used by Yambao in his book Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis. There is the everyday Tagalog heavy with modern words that did not exist when I was growing up in my village in Central Luzon. And there are Tagalog words that are "local". In my village (about 2 hours north of Manila, in the town of Gapan that shares a boundary with Bulacan) there are "local" Tagalog words that would not be understood by anybody outside the village. Hence, a person, say, living in Cavite (south of Manila) would not know if such a word exists. Therefore, because, the Caviteno might not have heard about the word, it does not necessarily mean that the word does not exist. By the same token, a Caviteno in a certain barrio (village) may use "local" Tagalog words that I would not know anything about. The word "kalis" oftentimes was used interchangeably with "gulok" by my two granduncles who raised me. They could not have read about the word because they couldn't read. They could not have learned it from their travels because they never travelled outside the village. They could not have heard it from travelling merchants because there was no such thing in my village. My two granduncles (who were brothers) were both born in the 1880s. One of them, Ingkong Leon Marcelo taught me the pingga his version of the sibat (spear) which he used to fight the Spaniards. I am almost sure that among the many different dialects of the Philippines, there must also be "local" words not known outside a village. WWII American and Filipino POWs (in the Death March) passed my town on their way to Cabanatuan (now a city, their final area of confinement). My town is less than 1/2 hours away from Cabanatuan. American tanks that liberated my village came from up north. APMarinas Sr. (originally from Pambuan, Gapan, Nueva Ecija in Central Luzon, the Philippines) In a message dated 5/25/2007 7:17:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: "Does anyone know why some of the older generation of Filipinos who came to America many years ago used the term Kali ? Why would someone start to use a term that may not have been in use or in common use ? " What is the logic here? If a Filipino came to America many years ago and used the term Kali (as an FMA term or name), therefore it follows that Kali was being used in the Phil. as an FMA term or name? By the way, some of these Kali name users switched from arnis or eskrima to kali. Could it be they heard of the term Kali while in the U.S. already? ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 04:21:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Bo, It’s nice to hear from you and thank you for the support. It would be very helpful if you can also give your inputs on this controversial issue since you are also from Bacolod, the center of Kali-fiction, err I mean Kali-fication, of the Philippines. If you’ve done your research you will find out that many of the old timers supposed to be “stick based” Arnisadores from Bacolod and nearby areas have a lot to tell you about this Kali-fication. I’ve gathered several of these first hand accounts and is in the process of documenting the same. In fact, one of the EDers, Red Gonzales wrote a rebuttal of the Kali myth in a local daily on two separate occasions. There was a sort of a word war between the Kalistas and the Arnisadores in the texting section of that daily. The Arnisadores threw a duel challenge which the Kali group concerned avoided (head of school vs head of school). The best defense the Kali group can offer for Mr. Gonzales’ arguments was copy and paste en toto from a Kali website from Europe (of all places!). Mr. Gonzales, who described himself as someone who has been around, pointed out several flaws in the history presented by that website and the Alamo went down. From what he wrote, I would say Mr. Gonzales knows more than what he is willing to write down for the public. Anyway, what you heard from the old timers was correct. The Oido de Caburata grandmaster you are referring to is one of my teachers and he told our class of what happened. I’m not sure what nationality were the foreigners for my teacher just described them as “puti” (whites). The Oido master was requested by some well known Kali masters to make a demonstration for the foreign visitors and instructed him to call his art Kali. This was the second time my teacher was approached by these men to exhibit his art; the first one was a BBC documentary. Hope this clarifies your query. JAMES Bo Kaner wrote: james sy, jr, greetings! I have been following up your arguments against kali and it seems that some of them (pro kali) are avoiding the issue. Just keep it up so that people outside of the philippines will know the truth. by the way, I was in conversation with some of the old bastoneros here in our city of smile and i was amazed by some of their revelation. It seems that our fellow negrenses ( practitioners of arnis) went to a certain well known oido lagas master and somewhat urged him to use the term "kali" to refer to the masters' art. infact someone told me that there were foreigners present and took some video clips. How true is this? I hope with your expertise the truth will come out, I think this is misleading/deceiving ("patalang" in illonggo) the public. This people i think is doing deservice instead of service to the community. More power to you. Hoping to enlighten us on this. Bo --------------------------------- Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 04:29:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - River To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Mark (Harrell), WATER PRINCIPLE / KALI RIVER The water principle may not be copyrighted or trademarked (which are Western practices) but it was the Chinese who were the first to teach it as part of martial arts tactics and strategy. The thousands year old Tai Chi Chuan Classics as well as other pre-modern Chinese martial arts manuals record this teaching. Mark Harrell wrote “That association has been used and described by many cultures, traditions and teachers throughout time.” Can you please give ancient manuals from non-Chinese countries that contain such teachings, as you declare? You’re right no one culture has a monopoly of truth. But then that’s not the issue. Just because a river is called Kali in Indonesian, it doesn’t mean it is one and the same with Kali the supposed Mother Art of all FMA. You are not answering the issue at hand, you are avoiding it. Mark Harrell wrote, “I think the characteristics of a river describe many of the qualities that are sought out by many martial artists from many cultures and traditions.” As an opinion that’s fine but when you make such opinion as the basis of your connecting Kali the river and Kali the Mother Art to define the term it would be very shallow and is not academically acceptable. What did the dictionary say? Kali = River. It didn’t say Kali = FMA Mother Art. That is the issue in your post. Your definition can not be found in the dictionary. MARK’S (HARRELL) INTERPRETATION Mark Harrell wrote, “Guro Inosanto does not need to officially authorize my opinions or thoughts on anything.” But if you look back I wrote, “Is your interpretation officially authorized by Guro Inosanto?” I did not say opinion or thoughts. Interpretation was the word. Guro Inosanto made public his kamot lihok definition. EDers are having an academic discussion to clear all the confusions surrounding the Kali term. Your “interpretation” of Kali the supposed Mother Art is not based on any historical, literary, anthropological, sociological, archaeological, or hoplological sources but rather would fall as conjecture, not backed by any concrete basis. Of course, you based your supposition on a dictionary which should make it academically acceptable. What makes it not academically acceptable is you forcing a definition which is not related to the topic just because they are spelled in the same way. That is hardly logical. I myself can go to an Ilonggo dictionary and say “aha, kali means to dig” and for purposes of discussion, will say, “kali “to dig” is related to Kali because anybody you hit with your stick or cut with your blade is as good as doomed with his grave dug out for him.” Would it be proper for me to make such assumption and present such in a public forum as fact? I doubt it. Basically that’s what you did. Your mere forced association of the river with the kamot lihok definition alone adds to the confusion at hand. We all know that Guro Inosanto popularized the term Kali and it is his book Filipino Martial Arts which EDers try to analyze here. Wouldn’t you think that your river definition is clouding the discussion? I believe so. ABRASIVE PRESENTATION Mark Harrell wrote, “The presentation style of some people is somewhat abrasive…” As I’ve told you before, Filipinos are good at pakisama (getting along) but once somebody starts insulting his intellect, either directly or implied, it’s a different story. CONFUSION When you were asked if wouldn’t your definition add to the confusion you wrote, “maybe for some people but not for me.” This follows because you are the source of the confusion. Confusion will only serve to cloud an issue that is otherwise becoming clearer. In this case, the historical validity of the term Kali. KALI NOT FILIPINO Mark Harrell wrote, “I have not yet read or seen any evidence or proof that Kali is a martial art of the Philippines.” The term Kali, at least the strain that derives from kamot lihok, was coined in the USA but the art itself is Filipino, more specifically Cebuano, or at least in its early development prior to additions of Silat and other arts. LIFE Mark Harrell wrote, “I am hoping this process produces a solid result so that some of the people who contribute here can lower their cortisol levels and live a more peaceful life.” We Filipinos are peace loving. We only react when our intellect is insulted, our FMA history rewritten, and taken for a ride. In the end, we can all have a peaceful life when the myth is put on check. JAMES Mark Harrell wrote: Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 06:27:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Kali term Mark wrote: “Anyone attempting to define the term Kali does not add to the confusion, rather they contribute to the movement in the direction of clarity or at least in the direction of investigation and further research. I continue to enjoy the many posts that offer real clarity of language use and written documentation of any kind.” I previously wrote: “The more you add to the Kali confusion, the easier it is to prove that it is not what it is claimed to be.” I was directing the reply to bgdebuque, not to you but since you opened it up, let me point out some things. Now, you went to the dictionary and found that Kali refers to a river. You try to associate the Chinese teachings on the characteristics of water (which was taught in Bruce Lee’s JKD and much earlier in Tai Chi Chuan and the other traditional Chinese Martial Arts) because a river has water in it. But then the dictionary says river and mentions no FMA. >Although the description of the water principle is best known through the late Bruce Lee and of course the Tai Chi Chuan traditions no one culture or person has the copyright or trademark on the association of water to athletic motion or combative movement. That association has >been used and described by many cultures, traditions and teachers throughout time. I think the characteristics of a river describe many >of the qualities that are sought out by many martial artists from many >cultures and traditions. Is your interpretation officially authorized by Guro Inosanto? If no, don’t you think his reputation will be put to question with your interpretation of Kali? >Guro Inosanto does not need to officially authorize >my opinions or thoughts on anything. Although I >greatly respect him I do not seek or need his >approval. >I am absolutely certain that Guro Inosanto’s >fantastic reputation as a wonderful and generous >human being and very knowledge teacher could not >possibly be “put into question” by me asking >questions, sharing my thoughts and opinions in the >quest for more information with regards to the use >of the term Kali. >I do not have an axe to grind with regards to the >term Kali nor do I feel that I am even capable of >damaging or affecting in anyway the reputation of >such a wonderful human being and teacher as Guro Dan >Inosanto. >I am enjoying the information and for the most part >the dialog that is occurring with regards to the >use of the term Kali. The presentation style of >some people is somewhat abrasive but I still find >the information being presented as useful in my >quest for more knowledge that will hopefully >provide me with more clarity with regards to the >term Kali. Wouldn’t this add to the confusion? >Maybe for some people but not for me. Or more importantly, the specific groups that have made such claims? >The only groups that I am aware of that make these >claims are the: >Kali Association of America Schools – lead by Mr. >Mel D. Lopez >The Kamatuuran Schools of Kali – lead by Mr. Joseph >T. Olivia Arriola >The Lontayao Schools of Kali – lead by Mr. Greg >Lontayao >All of the above listed groups are or were >associated with Mr. Villabrille and Mr. Largusa at >some point in time. >The schools that use the term Kali but do not make >the offensive claims are most likely schools that >at one point in time used the terms of arnis or >escrima but for some reason switched to the term >Kali. Maybe they switched for business reason’s >because Guro Inosanto has done such a wonderful job >of spreading the Filipino arts around the world. I >do not know the answer… “Intelligently researched and presented information” would not only refer to one’s reference but also the right use or interpretations of these materials. Universally accepted procedure of research involves the meticulous choice of references and solid proof. Since Kali is supposed to be an ANCIENT MOTHER ART in pre-Hispanic Philippines why can’t Filipino historians, scholars, anthropologists (like Prof. Jocano of UP), linguists, archaeologists, and researchers produce any evidence to support such claims? If it is indeed Muslim or Hindu, why can’t we find it in ancient Muslim or Hindu records? >I do not subscribe to the claim that Kali is the >mother art… etc… but otherwise I think we agree on >this point. >I have not yet read or seen any evidence or proof >that Kali is a >martial art of the Philippines. These insights/questions will definitely need “intelligently researched and presented information” based on prima facie evidence, not just mere conjecture/speculation. Peace be with you. JAMES >I am hoping this process produces a solid result so >that some of the people who contribute here can >lower their cortisol levels and live a more >peaceful life. >Not to mention the fact that it would be nice to >settle this at some point and move onto other points >of common interest. : ) >Thank you for taking the time and energy to engage >in the effort to discover or uncover some truth >about the use of the term Kali. >Peace be with you, >Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------ More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 04:32:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Stephen/Steve, KALI CLAIMS You wrote, “With respect to the additional claim that Kali is the "mother art" of other Filipino martial arts systems (a claim not made by Dan Inosanto, I believe),…” In page 12 of the book Filipino Martial Arts, Guro Inosanto wrote, “but it wasn’t just their religious fervor that made them so effective. The art behind their bladed weapon was “Kali” (silat) the oldest weaponry on the islands and mother to Escrima. Older than Escrima, Kali comes from the word kalis, which implies a blade, and…” The section on GM Ben Largusa repeated such declarations, “Ben Largusa separates himself from the title of Escrima master. He is a man of Kali, the older Filipino art. Kali is the source from which all the Escrima styles developed.” And “Escrima, Arnis, Sikaran, Silat, Kuntao, Kaliradman, Kalirongan, and Pagkalikali are all phases of Kali,” says Largusa, “but Kali is the mother or ancestral art. These phases are all part of pour training.” KALI BRAND NAME I agree with you that “Kali is in fact a "brand" name.” JUNIOR PRACTITIONERS You wrote, “…most experienced practitioners don't care; most of the heat (but not the light) is generated by junior practitioners who should spend more time practicing their art instead of arguing about what to call it.” Please consider… “The indigenous and only TRADITIONAL Filipino martial art known as Arnis had existed long before the arrival of the first Spanish colonizers in the Philippines.” Atty. GM Dionisio Cañete of Doce Pares "We would like to make it clear from the onset that Kalis Illustrisimo is not to be confused with Kali. Kali has become a generic name used for Filipino martial arts" as practised in the U.S. Kali is not however, the name of an ancient, all encompassing "mother art" of the Philippines. In fact, nobody that we know in the Philippines ever used that term, or had even heard of it, until it was used in Yambao's book and, later in Inosanto and Johnsons book." GMs Tony Diego & Christopher Ricketts of Bakbakan International in The Secrets of Kalis Illustrisimo “The Filipino Fighting Art Explained” "Kali as an ancient fighting art is a myth. In America, Dan Inosanto propagated the word and the myth, and I also rode along with this. It has been a tool to promote the Philippine Martial Arts.” GM Epifanio “Yuli” Romo of Zu'bu Kali Ilustrisimo in FMA Digest Special Edition 2007 “However, a study of various historical, anthropoligical, literary, and "popular" sources indicates that the term, as used to identify a martial art, did not exist prior to the twentieth century.” Dr. Master Mark Wiley in his book Filipino Martial Culture “I grow up to this arts, from the day that I can hold or grip a weapon, the training begun, but in my lifetime studies of the arts, I am not en-counter masters in the Philippines used "Kali" as FMA only when i came here, besides reading on "Remy Presas" book of Modern Arnis and Yambao is the only one I see stated that "Kali" is the name of the arts of Arnis before.” Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet of Laguna Arnis Federation International, “Kali Answer for Kristine” posted on Eskrima Digest on May 30, 2007 “For twenty-two years I have traveled the entire breadth of Mindanao as a salesman, while on the side searching in vain for the vaunted Kali man I’ve read so much in FMA books. Without luck, everywhere I went dodging bullets and 105-mm howitzers whistling past my ears from Ipil, Zamboanga del Sur to boundaries of Bukidnon, David, and Cotabato, I always end up in a quagmire” Eskrima de Campo JDC-IO Senior Trainer Celestino "Tinni' Macachor of Ozamis City “There is kalis the sword, from which it could be inferred that what we have is a generic term for sword skills, not a mother system from which all other FMAs have come” Prof./Instructor Felipe “Bot” Jocano of University of the Philippines/Lema Scientific Kali Arnis System (LESKAS) It would be easy to quote not less than 30 more Filipino “junior practitioners” simply because 99.999999999% of the Philippines don’t use Kali as a term for FMA. And many of the revelations won’t be nice. It’s stressful being in the forefront of this Kali debate. If you try reading back in previous posts, this debate is already more than a month old and it was started by a simple inquiry on the term guru, massaguru, and tuhon. I don’t normally express myself much publicly prior to this thread and I always try to be “neutral” and picky with my words. But it’s a different story when people start defending, in many times in an offensive tone, claims that we know are falsehoods. Since I am very active in debunking the Kali Myth here at ED I would presume that you my good sir are also including me in the blanket I’m not a grandmaster but…21 years martial arts experience, study from not less than 15 Filipino grandmasters/masters living in the Philippines (6 of which with certification/authority to teach), research in urban, mountainous, and seaside areas in Negros, Panay, Cebu, and Manila, being active in local and inter regional level martial arts, etc…I think would be enough qualifications for a “junior practitioner.” When I post things to refute the historical, not the technical, validity of Kali, I know what I am saying because I’ve been there and I am witness to what has transpired in the quest to “Kalify” Negros and Panay. I witnessed it first hand; I just didn’t read it but experienced it. Without a doubt all the “junior practitioners” who had posted at ED had their own unique experiences with Kali that we haven’t experienced ourselves. “Junior practitioners who should spend more time practicing their art instead of arguing about what to call it” is simply a variation of: It’s just a name, why fuss over it? What’s important is it works. Don’t let it interfer with your training. A simple way of, as Guro Gatdula said, putting aside all those who had enough of these ridiculous claims. TURNING HAY TO GOLD You wrote, “I just think that there is a law of diminished returns when seeking to convert hay into gold.” When Kali makes all the ridiculous claims that downgrades Arnis and Escrima, that is turning Gold (Arnis and Escrima) to Hay. THE FILIPINO SENTIMENT (For all concerned) It has been more than a month since this thread had started (April 26, 2007). If you look back you’ll understand why Filipinos like GP Abon, Guro Maurice Gatdula, me, and the other EDers would have enough of this. Filipinos are very good at pakisama but pag puno na ang salop dapat nang kalisin (when the salop is full, it needs to be leveled off). Prof. Jocano defines pakisama as “coming along with someone. It means in one sense subordinating one’s own pride, ego, and desire to give way to someone else or to help the other person.” Many who defend the ridiculous claims of Kali subscribe to respect but where is respect? Is respect just reserved for the Filipinos who immigrated in the USA and to Fil-Ams who popularized the art there? Doesn’t the Filipino masters and other practitioners from the motherland of FMA worthy of respect? Or maybe, the respect talked about here is just lip service. Why do we have to go all around Southeast Asia (thank God not the world) just to simply define the “ancient Mother Art” of the Philippines? Filipinos find it pretentious for non-Filipinos to tell native Filipinos who are in the know what should be their history and culture, inspite of these Filipinos telling them it is not their culture. If these Filipinos were speaking their ethnic dialects then there is a reason for non-Filipinos not to understand. But then Filipinos are the third largest English speaking nation in the world and their English is easily understood by other nationalities. So why is it very hard to make people understand what is the truth? When this happens what are these people trying to say, they are more Filipino than Filipinos? That they know Philippine history and culture more than the Filipinos? If so prove it. Where is the historical, literary, archaeological, anthropological, sociological, cultural, hoplological, linguistic, etc. evidences to back all the claims? It’s more than one month. Nothing solid based on academic criteria. If it is indeed the Mother Art why can’t anybody offer proof? Answer must just be around the corner. So the big question is why can’t anybody give any logical and comprehensive explanation to all this mess? Times change. Filipinos also adopt with the times, including the use of technology. Ever wonder why such attacks on Kali was unheard of in the earlier days? Simple. The net, for one, was not yet that widespread and it was very hard to come by information and communicate to different parts of the country except for the traditional telephones and mail. The new generation of Filipinos is now not only skilled in the warrior arts of their motherland but also the technology given by Americans and the other races that have influenced them. They do more research and cross referencing. And they had seen things that were not seen by the generation before them. The Filipinos of old fought for the liberation of its race from colonizers. The new generation is no exception; they argue and debate in this forum to “free” their culture and history of fallacies that nobody dared to question before. Would you construe that as something bad? If I were a Muslim, people may not get to read my thoughts in the computer but will see me knocking at their doors with a heavy blade in my hand. Our Muslim brothers doesn’t take lightly distortions in their history and culture. For us who are non-Muslims, we try to share our views with you people to let you see the light, in a more civil manner. But if you start insulting us, that would be a different story. Hope you ponder on this. It might not be a big fuss for some but for us who “love” the art it is serious, dead serious. JAMES Stephen Lamade wrote: Kim wrote that "It is not a waste of time to discuss and try to clarify this issue, but it certainly could become a waste of time and effort if the simplest explanation closest to the earliest published occurrences of the word Kali in relation to the FMA's is not even given honest consideration and discussion." An even simpler explanation might be that Dan Insosanto learned the term from Ben Largusa and that out of respect for GM Villabrille has chosen not to comment publicly about a term that did not have any political connotations back when it was originally published. With respect to the additional claim that Kali is the "mother art" of other Filipino martial arts systems (a claim not made by Dan Inosanto, I believe), I think that most reasonable individuals treat this claim in much the same matter as they consider claims of "secret caves" and "Blind Princesses," etc., i.e. we can respect the myths of other martial arts without necessarily subscribing to them. Kali is in fact a "brand" name used for marketing, and if there are in fact subsidiary reasons for using this term instead of other terms, the fact remains most of the general public are not aware of the issue and most experienced practitioners don't care; most of the heat (but not the light) is generated by junior practitioners who should spend more time practicing their art instead of arguing about what to call it. In saying this I do not mean to slight anyone whom, as Kim states, has taken the time to try to clarify the issue: blessed be the peacemakers. I just think that there is a law of diminished returns when seeking to convert hay into gold. Best, Steve Lamade _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 04:44:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Arnis and Kung Fu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Master Montoyo is still active in the martial arts after all these years. His school, the Philippine Integrated Martial Arts Academy-Filipino Tang Soo Do Association (PIMAA-FTSDA), Inc. is one of more active schools in Bacolod. He could still put off a candle with a straight punch. As to the iron palm, I still have not seen it from him. bgdebuque wrote: How is Sir Elmer James? Can he still put out a candle light with his iron palm from about 1 meter away? I once had the rare honor of taking a shower at his house at Sayo - which used to be one of the toughest areas of Bacolod City. > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 03:21:35 -0700 (PDT) > From: "james jr. sy" > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] arnis and kung-fu > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > > The foreign-influenced FMA Filipino Tang Soo Do founded by Master Elmer V. > Montoyo uses a Tang Soo Do base integrated with Filipino, Chinese, Japanese, > Indonesian, and Thai concepts, techniques, and philosophy. The Chinese > influences include among others Hung Gar, Tai Chi Chuan, and Kung Fu Karato. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 04:45:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A couple of points To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello CD, The Yambao Kali is different from the kamot lihok Kali. You will see that when you read the book. CD wrote, “Filipino words and names change quite regularly at a rather rapid clip all the time.” May I ask what was the basis of this statement? It is because suntukan became panatukan when it arrived in the US? Tadyakan became pananjakman? Guro became guru and gura? Escrima became Kali? Anito, barang, baladao, etc. are all ancient Filipino terms found in records but they are still around. Arnis and Escrima, though relatively newer import terms, would be more than a century at least (if one had read Yambao they’ll know it went more far back than a century). If we accept the argument that Filipino words change rapidly and regularly, is it the same as saying that the term Kali being used in the US is simply a modern rendition of Arnis and Escrima? No Kali was mentioned within the entry on GM LaCoste in Guro Inosanto’s book. Ray’s comment on the distance between Guro Inosanto and GM also needs to be considered. I beg to disagree. Kali the Mother Art did not exist in the Philippines. A lot of evidences had been forwarded over the years, most or all of which were not successfully addressed for invalidation. Definitely more to come as more Filipinos are doing additional research. The proofs presented here at ED by various posters against the claims of Kali are very basic but were still not addressed convincingly with legitimate proof other than conjecture/speculation. The book of Dr. Nepangue and Macachor for one would be the newest to disprove if one wants to prove that Kali the Mother Art did exist in the Philippines. The authors are open for scrutiny, of course with the right proofs. If they are wrong they’ll admit it. But how about if it was the other way around? In jurisprudence, those who claim are the ones who need to offer proof. But in the case of the Kali debate, the reverse is true. Many times those who offer revelations are criticized. Dr. Wiley Wiley for one had been questioned of his credentials just because he wrote what he had discovered in the Philippines. Dr. Wiley made not less than 8 trips to the country. It may not be enough for his detractors, but it sure is more than enough compared with what his detractors did. It is not questioned where Guro Inosanto got the name from. The issue is the historical authenticity of the term Kali. Regards. JAMES Marc Denny wrote: Woof All: As this conversation continues, I'd like to interject a couple of points quickly. 1) Just as is being discussed fully here that the Kali mother art claim irks those it irks, the current claim by some that the word Kali never existed and is some sort of fraud generated by some Filipinos in Stockton, CA, USA can irk those of us who do use the term. For this poor humble clueless American dog who is terrified of being turned into roadkill trying to navigate the freeways of this perennial conversation, the point that seems as yet unanswered by those who assert that the term itself is a fraud is the fact of the Mirafuentes/Yambao book. 2) As a matter of logic, the question of whether there was SOMETHING prior to the arrival of the Spaniards (seems to me that there surely must have been) is separate from the issue of its name(s). As best as I can tell, in the fecund soup of Filipino linguistics, words and names change quite regularly at a rather rapid clip all the time. Thus, the fact that the references to Arnis prior to Mirafuentes/Yamboa do not prove anything about whether there was an art prior to the Spaniards and whether that something has survived in some form or other until today. 3) I am glad to see that it now seems to be understood that Guro Inosanto was quoting GM Largusa about the history, mother art, etc. and was not taking a position himself. I would like to point out though that although Villabrille-Largusa Kali is one of the main FMA systems to influence Inosanto Blend, the use of the term Kali by Guro Inosanto I would ascribe principally to its use by his principal teacher, Manong John Lacoste, who as has been already noted in this conversation, also used the term eskrima. I could be wrong in this, but my sense of things is that Manong Lacoste did not use the two interchangeably. I do know that as I was packing up my books to empty my office the other day that I ran across my Inosanto Blend Instructor notebook the other day, and the heading for Lacoste, was Kali, not eskrima. In summary: the term Kali did exist in the Philippines. I find unpersuasive the campaign by some researchers that the term itself is some sort of fraud, generated in America or elsewhere. Whatever its names were, "something" existed prior to the Spaniards arrival. Whether some form of that something survives with little or no Spanish influence I have not a clue. Guro Inosanto's use of the term Kali I understand principally to be due to the influence of his teacher Manong John Lacoste. The Adventure continues, Marc/Crafty Dog PS: Kristine, sorry I misascribed certain passage to you! _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest