Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:26:03 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #180 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Arnisification/Karatezation (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #178 - 9 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 2. Re: TSD Bacolod (bgdebuque) 3. Re: Kali - River (Ray) 4. Re: karatefication or arnisification (Michael Gallagher) 5. Re: Kali- The Mother Art (Michael Gallagher) 6. A Couple of Points, part three (Marc Denny) 7. (no subject) (Alex Ercia) 8. a question for native born Filipinos (Kristine Strasburger) 9. karatefication or arnisification! (Jorge Penafiel) 10. Kali & local words (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #179 - 7 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 11. Kali River (Mark Harrell) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 08:45:55 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Arnisification/Karatezation (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #178 - 9 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Bot, Still here. I do my favorite shorin-ryu karate form "gojushiho" with the empty hands and also with two balisongs in my hand (s). The gojushiho was developed by the Okinawans from a Chinese tiger-crane form. I practice my aikido throws with the empty hands & with a knife(knives) in my hand(s) to check if I can execute throws without cutting the attacker. Movement-wise, it will appear that karate is being “FMA-ized” and that FMA is being “Karate-ized” only because the human body has two hands and two feet and many movements that look “copied” are mere natural consequences of the structure of the human limbs. The adoption of the "idea" of having belts have become necessary in the FMA because it is no longer like in the old days in the Philippines where instructions take place under a mango tree in one-on-one training sessions. Best. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 6/3/2007 7:12:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: I have a question for everyone: if you had ever practiced karate and arnis together, has one influenced the other? In what way? For instance, has arnis been karatefied, so to speak? I would suppose it has to some extent, given the use of belts, uniforms, etc by many arnis systems - but if you could call this karatefication, has it also expressed itself in some other way? On the other hand, has your practice of karate been arnisified, so to speak (what a lousy term, but what the hey, until someone suggests a better one)? As in drills and kumite that have a flowing flavor akin to espada y daga etc.? ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 09:06:19 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] TSD Bacolod Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Bo! Ah... It seems you have moved. During our time, the gym was still at Paglaum. Almost right next to PAJA's. I remembered being thrown a few times on the rubber dust padded judo floor of PAJA's gym just to demonstrate the effectiveness of the Pinoy innovation of using tarpaulin covered rubber dust as a judo floor instead of the usual tatami mat to save on cost. I heard that Dondon is now your main instructor. When I met him way back then he was only 9... and his was probably the most form-perfect roundhouse kick I've ever seen (the advantage of being an ultra-flexible young boy). Can he still do those triple somersaults? Only 12 inches away you say? Hhhmmm.... He must be wearing 12 iron bracelets that's why it's only 12 inches... =[:->] Is Hung Gar's 5-Star Blocking still part of your repertoire? howdee, i saw your inquiry re: elmer montoyo. > we meet every saturday morning at his gym at ymca bacolod practicing > original tapado. > elmer is still as strong as ever. he still enjoys playing basketball. yes, > he still can put off a lighted candle with his palm heel strike 12 inches > from the candle. he still performs those pyung ahn katas as if he is in his > twenties. still teaches tang soo do. > sorry, james if I answered for you in this mail. ha ha ha > anyway, we are still practicing here. --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - River To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 08:16:09 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > In the end, we can all have a peaceful life when the myth is put on check. > > JAMES Please remember to trim/truncate your emails to the list. Thanks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 11:45:43 -0400 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Michael Gallagher Subject: Re: [Eskrima] karatefication or arnisification Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net At 12:10 PM 6/2/2007, you wrote: >Hi all, > >Karate is still popular here in the Philippines, and >its interesting to note how many Pinoy arnisadors >are/were dan-ranked karate practitioners. For that >matter, many non-Pinoys as well. > >I have a question for everyone: if you had ever >practiced karate and arnis together, has one >influenced the other? In what way? For instance, has >arnis been karatefied, so to speak? I would suppose it >has to some extent, given the use of belts, uniforms, >etc by many arnis systems - but if you could call this >karatefication, has it also expressed itself in some >other way? > >On the other hand, has your practice of karate been >arnisified, so to speak (what a lousy term, but what >the hey, until someone suggests a better one)? As in >drills and kumite that have a flowing flavor akin to >espada y daga etc.? > >Comments, observations, disagreements? I've been practicing karate for 22 years now, and I began doing Insanto Kali 10 years ago. I took Guro Kevin Seaman's beginner class during the summer of 1997; and then, because of a time conflict with the karate class, I didn't do the formal class over the winter, but continued to practice on my own and took another class at the academy on Tuesdays so I could continue going there. I also sat in on the intermediate class on Friday nights. In the summer of '98, I resumed the beginner's Kali class, and I have continued doing it ever since. All the while, I up with the karate. Still am. Of course, the separate classes meant separate uniforms: Gi and belt and karate; t-shirt and sweat pants in Kali. (Although these days when I go to karate or Aikido, I wear one of the t-shirts I've accumulated under whichever gi I'm wearing.) So in that respect, for me, they've been separate. I am aware that Cornell has/had a group doing Okinawan Karate and Modern Arnis, so AFAIK from the seminar I went to, they trained in gis. Technically, I've gone 180 degrees. 10 years ago, I thought Kali, in particular the empty hand section, would shed light on karate. Some things in the forms, like the supported blocks, seem to make more sense when looked at from a trapping perspective. But nowadays, I try to compartmentalize everything I do, if only so my head doesn't feel like it's going to explode. This is easier said than done, sometimes, especially when it comes to joint locks and throws, but not impossible. Of course, that's consciously; with things from a variety of arts in my muscle memory, I have no idea how they've effected how I move when I spar, although I imagine they have. Does that answer your question? What was your question? :o --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 11:43:57 -0400 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Michael Gallagher Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali- The Mother Art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net At 10:45 PM 6/1/2007, you wrote: >Much has been written and discussed on Kali as the Mother Art, yet >nothing written nor discussed regarding the "Father" art. I'd also be >interested in the origins of the brother and sister arts too, not to >mention the Uncle and Auntie arts. Save for another time I gather, And don't forget the cousin arts, the buddy arts, the significant other arts, the evil-ex-from-h-e-double-toothpick arts, the owes me money art .... :) Sorry; couldn't resist! :) --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:28:02 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] A Couple of Points, part three Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof Red: My responses to your queries are interjected below. > -- __--__-- > > hello marc crafty dog, > > from what I understood in your post, your justification for the use of > the name kali and your subsequent belief that it is not fraudulent are: > > A. yambao's book (not mirafuente's) Not quite. I give the Yambao book as a proof that the term existed in the Philippines. I use the term due to my teacher, Guro Inosanto, which is a separate point. > B. filipino words and names change quite regularly. Ummm, not sure of your point here. As best as I can tell, Filipino words can and do change quite regularly-- which certainly makes the work of you researchers all the more difficult. > C. the fact that arnis appeared first in florante at laura (1831) and > kali only first appeared in yambao's book (1957) do not prove anything. My point is this: As I reason it, SOMETHING existed prior to the Spaniards. If it exists now, what it was called then may not be, indeed given the rate of change in Filipino words and names probably isn't, what it is called now. > D. dan inosanto wasn't the one who claimed that kali was the mother art. Yes. > E. john lacoste was the source of inosanto's use of the term kali. My understanding (and I've been wrong before and will be again no doubt) Manong Lacoste was the main, but not only, source of his use of the term Kali. Given the attention being given in this thread by several serious students of these things, I posted this point to avoid yet another mis-understanding from taking root i.e. that Largusa was THE source of Guro Inosanto's use of the term. > In reference to these points, i'd like to point out to you some things. > i'm hoping you can shed some light to them. > > 1. yambao used tagalog. kali from your parlance is cebuano. how do you > connect the kali from stockton to yambao's kali? Ummm, , , I don't. I haven't a clue whether they are related or not. > 2. the appearance of the word kali in yambao's book doesn't necessarily > mean it is the same kali that you have there. Agreed. I use its appearance there only for the proposition that the term DID exist in the Philippines. > 3. the names of the techniques discussed in yambao's book are entirely > different from what is used in your mother art. Once again, I reject the term "mother art". Once again, I use Kali because my teacher did with me. > 4. the filipinos who migrated to stockton & were associated with > inosanto were cebuanos not tagalog. I'm terrible at these things and so cannot agree or disagree, but wasn't GM Giron from Luzon-- which to this clueless American suggests that he was Tagalog? If I am wrong, please correct me. > 5. yes, filipino words and names change quite regularly. that's why you > have gaje use arnis before and when kali became popular, adopted it. Although he is a teacher to me, Grand Tuhon Gaje, has no need of me to defend him. > 6. so since filipino words change often is it alright to change escrima > to kali and claim it as the mother art? I am NOT changing anything. AGAIN, in the teacher manual I received from Guro Inosanto, Lacoste is referenced as Kali. AGAIN, I am not claiming it as a mother art. > 7. so since filipino words change often can we say that your kali name > is not ancient but modern? using your logic, if it was ancient, we won't > have the word kali today. Again, I am not a historian. If by modern, you mean the Lacoste and the Yambao book, then sure, you can call it a modern term. I claim only that my use of the term descends from my teacher and that his main influence in this regard is Manong Lacoste. > 8. if you don't believe florante at laura as proof, what would you > believe in? If he is cited as evidence for the propostion that the term "Arnis" is older than the term "Kali" that makes sense to me. > 9. so far the best evidence kali can offer is yambao's book, which is > 20th century. don't you have anything older, maybe something from sri > vishaya empire? Ancient things need ancient proof. Again, I do not conflate Yambao's book with issues of things ancient. I use it only for the proposition that the term existed in the Philippines. > 10. florante and laura is definitely older than yambao's book, don't you > think? Sure. > 11. whether it was inosanto who claimed or not it has no bearing to the > issue on the authenticity of the claims of kali. Sure, readily agreed, but given the passion of researchers for accuracy, which is as it should be, then it seems to me that those who have ascribed this to him should now cease doing so. Yes? Furthermore, please allow me to point out that most of us who use the term Kali e.g. Guro Inosanto, his many students of whom I am but one, have nothing to do with what I understand you to mean by "the claims of Kali" i.e. the mother art etc. > 12. whether inosanto got the kali name from villabrille, lacoste, or > largusa it has no bearing to the issue on the authenticity of the claims > of kali. Again, please understand that many of us, indeed as best as I can tell the overwhelming majority of us who use the term have no interest in making mother art claims. > 13. what you're trying to say is here is that largusa told inosanto that > kali is the mother art and inosanto didn't bother to check it out? I'm not sure what what you think he should have done in 1973 in Stockton that he didn't. Check it out how? Where? With whom? > 14. lacoste was cebuano. kali for cebuano is to dig. As has been written about many times, Manong Lacoste was unusually well-travelled and unusually well-versed in many systems from different parts of the Philippines. Like many Filipinos, Lacoste spoke many languages. Tangent: This multi-linguistic skill impresses the h*ll out of me. I have had to struggle mightily to learn Spanish. > 15. no kali is mentioned for lacoste entry in inosanto's book. Only > escrima. True. > 16. kali do exist in the philippines but not the way kali is claimed to > be. digging, eagle, etc. has nothing to do with FMA. This is where I think the Yambao book proves you wrong. > 17. if filipinos don't use kali as name for martial arts in the > philippines, why can't you accept it? Well, again, Yambao shows that some Filipinos did use the term-- and my teacher received it from his teacher Manong Lacoste. GM Largusa uses the term. > 18. and why can't you accept that the kali name you use came from > america? Why can't you accept that the name's existence in the Philippines is proven by the Yambao book? Why don't you give credence when Guro Inosanto says that Manong Lacoste used the term with him? Yes Lacoste also used the term eskrima-- AND he used the term Kali. > 19. yes something existed before the spaniards and we all know it was > not named kali. I have no opinion. > 20. give us concrete proof that the name kali you and inosanto promote > have historical grounding in the philippines and we will believe you. Please forgive me, but apparently not. There is the Yambao book, and there is Manong Lacoste, as reported by Guro Inosanto. If you lack confidence in his integrity, well then there we disagree, for I do trust in his integrity. When he says Manong Lacoste used the term, I believe him. > Salamat. > RED > > > From: Felipe Jocano > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A couple of points > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Hi Marc; > > The only problem with Mirafuente's chapter in Yambao's > book is that he did not cite any sources for his > assertion of the term kali being used for what would > become FMA before the Spanish contact. Hence this > conversation (with all the heat and light that goes > with it). That the book itself exists, no doubt - what > is of interest to those who are interested is - upon > what basis did he make that statement? Even if there > were no bibliographic entries at the end of his > chapter, reference to oral history, interviews with > older practitioners etc. would have been helpful. I appreciate your frustrations, but such is Life. > Books are wonderful things (this from a book lover), > but as repositories of information, they are limited > by the persons who wrote them. Which is why we > inevitably ask tough questions about who wrote what > and where and when and why and how. Granted, it may be > unfair to judge Mirafuente's chapter by today's > standards, but still, the lack of citation is > frustrating. Hence the inferences about the source of > the name and whether it should have an 's' at the end > or not, etc. I leave the work of historians to historians, which I most certainly am not :-) > In trying to remember the paths which this > conversation took, I am doing my best to recall when > and who said the term kali was a fraud generated by > some Filipinos in Stockton, as you said... When I wrote that I was thinking specifically of some things I read by a particular group of researchers elsewhere, not in this thread here-- which I should have made clear when I posted about accusations of fraud. Naturally as part of good manners the term fraud has been avoided in direct conversation here, but I suspect if RED, to whom I respond above, and perhaps some of the others, were to express himself unrestricted by the limits of good manners, he would say that he finds the term a fraud. > Be assured though that I will do my best not to run > over any dogs, whatever the nationality :-) For which I am most grateful :-) > Bot > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:58:59 -0700 (PDT) > From: Felipe Jocano > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A couple of points >> > Hi again, Marc: > > While rereading your post, I just thought I would also > comment on this point: I think the attribution of the > claim of kali-the-mother-art to Dan Inosanto was due > to the chapter on Ben Largusa in his book. Hence the > conflation of the two, i.e., the remark was also > attributed to Dan Inosanto. Since the book was > co-authored by him, it would be easy for people to > think that he made the claim as well. , , , > Bot Exactly so. The Adventure continues Marc/Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Alex Ercia" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:25:45 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Here's my experience. I started as a Karate practitioner. Being a son of a Shotokan instructor this was the influence. As far as I can remember I was taught as soon as I can walk.(expression) Anywho, I felt when I was exposed to FMA. It influenced my karate in many ways. It gave me a fluidity, enhanced my footwork, responsiveness, rhythm, sensitivity, speed and awareness. It has made me a better fighter. But now I chosed to stop my karate practice and evolve onto other arts not only in the FMA but outside my filipino culture. Hope this helps. Alex _________________________________________________________________ Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 12:14:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Kristine Strasburger To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] a question for native born Filipinos Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. James Sy, Your post, excerpted below, was very well put and thought provoking. Because of it, I would like to direct a question specifically to those of Filipino blood who were born on Philippine soil. Many of you in this category have already expressed your sentiments to these questions quite well, but for the sake of us non-Filipinos, I hope you will take a moment to talk about it one more time from the angle of my question here. I don't need any more proofs or arguements for or against the term "Kali." I want to hear your heart's response to the issue we are faced with here in the U.S. and other places. Question: For those of us teaching and promoting the FMA in countries outside of the Philippine Islands, do you feel we are harming or doing a dis-service to the FMA in general, and to the Filipinos as a People by continuing to use the term Kali interchangeably with Arnis and Eskrima as a general term for the FMA? (Notice that I am NOT referring to the use of Kali in any particular style, system, school or name, and I am also NOT referring to anyone who is claiming anything about Kali as a separate, distinct or "mother" art that is different from Arnis or Eskrima.) I, for one, have always used the three terms interchangeably because that is what I was taught, although the only time I use the term Kali is when I am discussing FMA with someone for the first time, and they have never heard of Eskrima or Arnis. Then I say the art is also known as Kali, in case that is a term they have heard before. Due to the marketing of FMA in the U.S., some people here recognize the term Kali but not Eskrima or Arnis. For this reason, when I make a flyer, poster or other advertising to the public, I use all three terms in alphabetical order, hoping to attract, and not alienate as many people as possible. Modern technology truly has had a positive effect on research and learning, and if what has come to light in recent years due to deeper research shows that my previous understanding of the term Kali was incorrect, even if I learned it from my instructor, then I will stop using the term as a generic term for the FMA alongside Eskrima and Arnis. If Kali has become accepted as a term for general FMA's now in some areas, but is still offensive to the people of the culture it is claiming to be from, then I will stop using it, and I will help to educate people as to why it is offensive. As it is right now, I simply move on after the introductory chit-chat, call it eskrima from there on out, and leave it at that. Please give me your advice...What would you like to hear me/us saying to best promote the Filipino Martial Arts in general here in the U.S.? "Come Learn Arnis / Eskrima / Kali - Martial Art of the Philippine Islands" or "Come Learn Arnis / Eskrima - Martial Art of the Philippine Islands"? We can't change history; only the future. Where do we go from here? Eagerly awaiting your responses, Respectfully, Kristine Strasburger www.HeartlandEskrimaSchool.com new photos and video links added to the photo gallery page-check them out! Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 04:32:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali THE FILIPINO SENTIMENT (For all concerned) It has been more than a month since this thread had started (April 26, 2007). If you look back youll understand why Filipinos like GP Abon, Guro Maurice Gatdula, me, and the other EDers would have enough of this. Filipinos are very good at pakisama but pag puno na ang salop dapat nang kalisin (when the salop is full, it needs to be leveled off). Prof. Jocano defines pakisama as coming along with someone. It means in one sense subordinating ones own pride, ego, and desire to give way to someone else or to help the other person. Many who defend the ridiculous claims of Kali subscribe to respect but where is respect? Is respect just reserved for the Filipinos who immigrated in the USA and to Fil-Ams who popularized the art there? Doesnt the Filipino masters and other practitioners from the motherland of FMA worthy of respect? Filipinos find it pretentious for non-Filipinos to tell native Filipinos who are in the know what should be their history and culture, inspite of these Filipinos telling them it is not their culture. --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Jorge Penafiel" To: Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 22:03:18 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] karatefication or arnisification! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bot asked : "Karate is still popular here in the Philippines, and its interesting to note how many Pinoy arnisadors are/were dan-ranked karate practitioners. For that matter, many non-Pinoys as well. I have a question for everyone: if you had ever practiced karate and arnis together, has one influenced the other? In what way? For instance, has arnis been karatefied, so to speak? I would suppose it has to some extent, given the use of belts, uniforms, etc by many arnis systems - but if you could call this karatefication, has it also expressed itself in some other way? On the other hand, has your practice of karate been arnisified, so to speak (what a lousy term, but what the hey, until someone suggests a better one)? As in drills and kumite that have a flowing flavor akin to espada y daga etc.? Comments, observations, disagreements? " ++++++ Greetings Bot !! To answer your query above, yeah, am one of those pinoy Arnisadors (Balintawak- (QI)/Karateka (7'th Dan -TSD Moo Duk Kwan) practitioners specially here in my now hometown of Cincinnati, Ohio. Same here, Karate is still the best MA choice for the locals and FMA is getting some notice. As such, training/instructions/structure/outlook/etc., in my class involves mainly both my "base" MA systems -Karatefied/Arnisified in the true sense of the words indeed. In what ways you asked ?? Both compliments each other - here's some instances for example: I. Class Set-up - No more "Bowing" to every Black Belts holders in class, flag, and, and picture of persons'. - No "drill Sergeant-like" vocals during class. - No "mini-pewee/children" class. - Organized/systimized training progression. Levels I - VII as opposed to Dan rankings. Sweat pants/T-shirts with Logo/gym shoes instead of uniform set/bare foot. II. Training - Stances - more straight relaxed /hands up guard as opposed wide/low/hands down classical karate fight stance. - Footwork/Kicks/Empty "alive"Hand - angular footwork, mid-range kicks with short/low snapping actions, and many uses of FMA alive hand were incorporated. - Concepts of Karate Kata movements/directions/focus was instigated as add-on training materials to FMA flow, mind, and combative drills. - Self-defense : more training regiments, consciousness and awareness of weapons in FMA. - Sparring (empty or with weapons) - point karate style, free, full contact of both arts are learned. III. Mentality - Follows what time and changes brings to the mentality and concepts adopted by martial arts community in particular. That is, aside the warrior mentality, MA is also great for sports and intertainment to foster health and peace to all. - We are all Brothers in the Art. - Be an example to our community. My thoughts !! Jorge Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 21:25:33 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali & local words (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #179 - 7 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi James (Sy Jr.) Great logic. I have written something about the different names used to refer to Philippine stick and knife fighting. It is a chapter in a book that was supposed to be published by CFW Enterprises back in 1983 but never was. As examples of "local" Tagalog words, let me give two now and check if any Tagalog speaker would know what they mean. The words "salakab" and "tungya" are "local" words used in my village. I will not give the meanings of the words. Feel free to ask your parents, grandparents, anybody. It is very unlikely that an Ilongo or a Waray, or any Filipino whose dialect is not Tagalog would know of such words. Note to EDers: If James speaks to me in his dialect, he might as well talk to me in Greek, I wouldn't understand him. Best. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 6/3/2007 11:02:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Hello PG Mat, Some loose ends of the Mother Art hypothesis would be as follows: 1. Pre-Hispanic Philippines didn’t have a national government 2. And thus, do not have a national language. 3. Without a national language, how can one word become the original term and by extension, the Mother Art of all FMA? 4. As PG Mat pointed out, there are “local” words that outsiders would not know of. 5. So if Kali was a local word, then it could not have been the original term for FMA. JAMES ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Mark Harrell" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 00:04:44 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Kali River Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 04:29:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - River Hello James, I am sorry that you are having a difficult time understanding my position and interest with regards to the term Kali. Let me attempt one more time to clarify that I do not subscribe to the Mother Art theory that you seem to be fixated on and find to be so upsetting. One more time: I do not subscribe to Kali the Mother Art theory. I have not made any of the mother art claims that you continue to try and build into our exchange of opinions, ideas, questions, and information. In fact, I do not care about the entire mother art debate. Frankly my interest is in learning more about the history and origin of older terms than what is claimed by Kali, Escrima and Arnis of modern times. I am not interested in the on-going battle of opinions that have done little so far to convince anyone of anything other than of their own positions or opinions. You seem to have a lot to offer and I am hoping that you will provide some information on this rather than focusing on the mother art claims and who said what, when etc I do not have any interest in that part of the Kali issue period. It seems to be a big circle that leads no where useful. I am sure that I would not be the only person here who would enjoy reading your comments and research with regards to the history of pre-Spanish influence terms and culture or bloodlines. I suspect that there are very few people here who want to read over and over again on how pissed off or insulted you become over the very tired Mother Art stuff or if you interpret that your intelligence is somehow being questioned. I think we all get it that you find that very offensive and insulting. I do not feel that I have insulted your intelligence or attacked you in anyway. In fact, I have and continue to question, share and learn from you. I appreciate you taking the time and effort to share what you know and believe but your anger or frustration vented in my direction is not needed or appreciated. My experience is that it diminishes your educating position here. I am sure we have all heard the phrase that you get more with honey than you do with a stick. This does apply here. Take a deep breath and relax I am not insulting your intelligence or attacking you personally in anyway. It would be easy for me to become defensive or insulted by some of your statements but I choose not to be because I value your thoughts and opinions. Can you provide any research or clues into any pre-Spanish terms that might have been used prior to Escrima or Arnis? There have been others who have posted older terms but they all seem to have Spanish roots. Remember that I do not have an axe to grind and that I am interested in pre-Spanish influence history of the people of the Philippines. Who were the Filipinos before being called Filipinos? Is there any history on the pre-Spanish culture, bloodline, or terms for any martial art from the area now called the Philippines? Do you know of any terms that are not of Spanish influence? KALI RIVER: I mentioned that the term Kali is used in Indonesia and that it means River. I offered my opinions and did not try to convince anyone that I was an historian or so called expert on terminology or ancient cultures. I was not writing or trying to re-write history either I merely presented to the readers for contemplation or consideration. I think that once again you have not understood me on this point. I have not written anything that tries to prove that just because the term Kali is used in Indonesia that it is somehow the mother art of the Philippines. That is the problem with people trying to project their agenda or interpretation into what was actually intended. I never said that just because a river in Indonesia may be called Kali that it is somehow or also the mother art of all FMA. I agree with you that there is no proof that is academic or scientific to argue that point. You seem to be so focused on the mother art stuff that you do not understand where my interest lies in an exchange of opinions and ideas with you. I understand your position with regards to the Mother Art and FMA. I am not avoiding the so called, issue as you describe. What you are failing to pick up on is that what you are interested in as an issue is not an issue with me. I am NOT interested in the on-going and never ending mother art diatribe. Once again, this is on-going conversation that is just a big circle that leads no where useful. I have been questioning you and anyone else to prove that Kali is Filipino in origin. Since nobody seems to be able to prove that Kali is of Filipino origin maybe the answer lies elsewhere I am not saying that it is Indonesian either But since most people here are upset that Kali may or may not be a Filipino term or art I am putting it out there that maybe Kali is not Filipino in origin? I do not have the answer to that question but thought it might bring forth someone who has research or history to share. It seems to me like there are more people eager to disprove Kali as a Filipino art but very few who can prove anything one way or another. Round after round of questions with very few answers It is my hope that the discussions would evenly produce a contribution to our collective understanding as well as create an exchange of ideas and opinions that might shed a little more light on the topic. To a large extent I do not think that has happened yet Water I would like to share one point of reference with regards to the water principle story. Two Dutch Indonesian Pentjak Silat teachers (the late Rudy ter Linden and Dr. Andre Knustgraichen) have taught and told one of many stories or legends relating the origin of ancient Pentjak Silat. I was told that this is an old story that is only one of several accepted in the Silat community. It is not the only story and I suspect it is not accepted by everyone. The story tells of a boy sitting by a pool of water that is being feed by a waterfall. As the boy plays near the pool a flower from high above falls into the pool of water. The boy notices how the flower is affected by the force of the waterfall as the water plunges into the pool creating ripples and waves. The flower is drawn in toward the waterfall and is pushed down by the force of the water but the flower gently rises to the top of the water again and again. The boy is amazed how the flower that is so delicate and beautiful can avoid being crushed by the power of the waterfall. He observes the principles of yielding and going with the flow, finding the path of least resistance, etc the story goes on to relate that the boy then returns to his home late for the evening meal and that his father attempts to beat him The boy utilizes what he had witnessed between the flower and the waterfall to avoid the blows and advances of his abusive father in order to remain safe. Thus the birth of Pentjak Silat Interesting side note is that the widely practiced flower form or dance in Pentjak Silat commemorates this legend or story. I apologize for not relating the story very well but my memory does not recall the subtle and beautiful story in its original form as told to me many years ago. Here is one reference that is not Chinese in origin that uses the principle of water to teach martial arts. I am well aware of the Chinese use of the water principle and perhaps the Chinese brought that to Indonesia and influenced the story above I do not know. To be sure that you are not confused I do not believe that this story, myth, or legend is the absolute truth. It is merely a story that relates a few principles of motion that Silat embraces. Can anyone prove in an academic or scientific way that any of these stories, myths or legends is literal fact? I doubt it. It also seems to be the case so far with the use of the term Kali. INTERPRETATION My interpretations do not need to be officially authorized or endorsed by Guro Inosanto either. The key words are my interpretations. Would it make any difference to you if Guro Inosanto did? I do not think that anything Guro Inosanto may or may not say would convince you of anything. In that statement is the answer to the question that has been asked of why Guro Inosanto does not make further comment or clarification with regards to the term Kali. What difference would it make? It is almost impossible to convince someone who believes they are right that they are wrong or to educate those who are wrong into changing their path. Mental and emotional entrenchment is difficult to overcome. It is no wonder why Guro Inosanto does not comment on any of the discussions with regards to the use of the term Kali. It could be said that most of what is taught in the martial arts is based upon conjecture, opinion, theories, and not backed by any concrete basis. James, take to heart that I have not insulted your intellect, either directly or implied. Thank you for taking the time to share. Peace be with you, Mark MARKS (HARRELL) INTERPRETATION Mark Harrell wrote, Guro Inosanto does not need to officially authorize my opinions or thoughts on anything. But if you look back I wrote, Is your interpretation officially authorized by Guro Inosanto? I did not say opinion or thoughts. Interpretation was the word. Guro Inosanto made public his kamot lihok definition. EDers are having an academic discussion to clear all the confusions surrounding the Kali term. Your interpretation of Kali the supposed Mother Art is not based on any historical, literary, anthropological, sociological, archaeological, or hoplological sources but rather would fall as conjecture, not backed by any concrete basis. Of course, you based your supposition on a dictionary which should make it academically acceptable. What makes it not academically acceptable is you forcing a definition which is not related to the topic just because they are spelled in the same way. That is hardly logical. I myself can go to an Ilonggo dictionary and say aha, kali means to dig and for purposes of discussion, will say, kali to dig is related to Kali because anybody you hit with your stick or cut with your blade is as good as doomed with his grave dug out for him. Would it be proper for me to make such assumption and present such in a public forum as fact? I doubt it. Basically thats what you did. Your mere forced association of the river with the kamot lihok definition alone adds to the confusion at hand. We all know that Guro Inosanto popularized the term Kali and it is his book Filipino Martial Arts which EDers try to analyze here. Wouldnt you think that your river definition is clouding the discussion? I believe so. ABRASIVE PRESENTATION Mark Harrell wrote, The presentation style of some people is somewhat abrasive As Ive told you before, Filipinos are good at pakisama (getting along) but once somebody starts insulting his intellect, either directly or implied, its a different story. CONFUSION When you were asked if wouldnt your definition add to the confusion you wrote, maybe for some people but not for me. This follows because you are the source of the confusion. Confusion will only serve to cloud an issue that is otherwise becoming clearer. In this case, the historical validity of the term Kali. KALI NOT FILIPINO Mark Harrell wrote, I have not yet read or seen any evidence or proof that Kali is a martial art of the Philippines. The term Kali, at least the strain that derives from kamot lihok, was coined in the USA but the art itself is Filipino, more specifically Cebuano, or at least in its early development prior to additions of Silat and other arts. LIFE Mark Harrell wrote, I am hoping this process produces a solid result so that some of the people who contribute here can lower their cortisol levels and live a more peaceful life. We Filipinos are peace loving. We only react when our intellect is insulted, our FMA history rewritten, and taken for a ride. In the end, we can all have a peaceful life when the myth is put on check. JAMES ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest