Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 02:58:34 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #181 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Kali- The Mother Art (james jr. sy) 2. Re: Is Mr. Yambao's book credible or not? (bgdebuque) 3. Re: Kali (iPat) 4. Toronto FMA training (sidney525@aol.com) 5. Using Kali (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #180 - 12 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 6. Re: Using Kali (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #180 - 12 msgs) (jay de leon) 7. Kali (sifujames@juno.com) 8. Cacoy Doce Pares (Eskrima-FMA) 9. Re: a question for native born Filipinos (RJ Garcia) 10. New book on Balisong (Pananandta@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 21:23:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali- The Mother Art To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Mike, don't forget the Mistress Art! :p Michael Gallagher wrote: And don't forget the cousin arts, the buddy arts, the significant other arts, the evil-ex-from-h-e-double-toothpick arts, the owes me money art .... :) Sorry; couldn't resist! :) --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 02:42:09 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Is Mr. Yambao's book credible or not? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I guess this all boils down on whether Mr. Yambao was a credible author or not. I have not read his book so I cannot really give an opinion. To those who have read the book, kindly give us your opinion. Let's say on a scale of 1 to 100, how many points would you award the entire book with respect to overall credibility? Thanks in advance. Message: 6 > From: "Marc Denny" > To: > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 10:28:02 -0700 > Subject: [Eskrima] A Couple of Points, part three > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Woof Red: > > My responses to your queries are interjected below. > > -- __--__-- > > > > > hello marc crafty dog, > > > > from what I understood in your post, your justification for the use of > > the name kali and your subsequent belief that it is not fraudulent are: > > > > A. yambao's book (not mirafuente's) > > Not quite. I give the Yambao book as a proof that the term existed in the > Philippines. I use the term due to my teacher, Guro Inosanto, which is a > separate point. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:54:14 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On 6/3/07, james jr. sy wrote: > It's stressful being in the forefront of this Kali debate. If you try reading back in previous posts, this debate is already more than a month old and it was started by a simple inquiry on the term guru, massaguru, and tuhon. I don't normally express myself much publicly prior to this thread and I always try to be "neutral" and picky with my words. But it's a different story when people start defending, in many times in an offensive tone, claims that we know are falsehoods. > i disagree with this. personally i withdrew from the converstaion as i saw it was being manipulated by careful editing in order to fit the agnda that you are promoting. I can understand your zeal but there have been points made here which are being ignored. I, for one, do not disagree that there is a lot of myth and ignorance that people repeat - mostly in good faith - and that is not really different from any other art or subject throughout the world. I do not disagree with the consensus that the use of the term has been exploited for commercial reasons. What i have suggested all the way through through though is that the term came from Filipinos who had settled in the US and who were very keen on keeping their culture alive in the face of what they saw as a distilling of certain values. These were people with small businesses surviving week to week in the fields, not commercial investors sewing the seeds of new business ventures. Some of these were very intelligent people, well respected in the community who were well versed in their history. i have recounted early on how Lacoste refferred to terms to the young inosanto by using terms in the elder fathers dialect - a term not readily recognised by a variety of residents familiar with many different dialects. This with the undertsanding of the 96 dialects (some say 88) is clear indication that what one may take as meaning for one thing may not be understood by others. The infulence of Lacoste on Inosanto is immence, where he still puts his teachers name before his. Lacoste was multi lingual, very versed in the cultural diversity and history of the Phillippines as was the Inosanto senior. These were intelligent men with vested interest in keeping their cultural history alive and not being lost in the throwaway culture that was facing them. To suggest that these men simply made up a term that is now 'offensive' is both naiive and ignorant. I receive mails more frequently now asking why i teach a muslim art to non muslims and that lacoste was wrong to have started the trend! While you bicker over something that may never be proved by paper trail there are greater threats in life. Sure, there are myths that should be addressed but there is also a rich tapestry in all cultures that has myths woven into them. Dispel all the myths and you might lose a treasuer that you are blind to. I have had the discussions with my instructor over the term and i am happy with the answers. I have travelled to and back from Germany to train with Guro Inosanto this weekend past and have been exposed to new material that came from lacoste. There is too much to learn in too short a time to waste on repetitive questions on the source of a term to which an answer has been given. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:43:30 -0400 From: sidney525@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Toronto FMA training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I am taking a look at going to Toronto and I was wondering if anybody is aware of some people I could get some training in with. You can e-mail me privately. salamat Sid Stein Defensor Method Chicago ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:44:22 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Using Kali (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #180 - 12 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Kristine, I am assuming you own the Heartland Eskrima School. It will make good business sense to use Kali side by side with Eskrima and Arnis. APMarinas Sr. (born in Pambuan, Gapan, Nueva Ecija, Central Luzon, Philippines) In a message dated 6/3/2007 9:42:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Question: For those of us teaching and promoting the FMA in countries outside of the Philippine Islands, do you feel we are harming or doing a dis-service to the FMA in general, and to the Filipinos as a People by continuing to use the term Kali interchangeably with Arnis and Eskrima as a general term for the FMA? ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 11:41:06 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Using Kali (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #180 - 12 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Kristine: I have always accepted the term kali as on par with arnis and eskrima as an interchangeable (brand) name here in the United States, as long as you do not claim it to be better, deadlier, older, more blade-oriented, more Moslem, ad nauseam, than the other two names. More power to you in promoting FMA. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com born and raised in Manila and Quezon City lived in Binmaley, Pangasinan, Central Luzon and Cotabato City, Cotabato, Mindanao Pananandta@aol.com wrote: Hi Kristine, I am assuming you own the Heartland Eskrima School. It will make good business sense to use Kali side by side with Eskrima and Arnis. APMarinas Sr. (born in Pambuan, Gapan, Nueva Ecija, Central Luzon, Philippines) In a message dated 6/3/2007 9:42:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Question: For those of us teaching and promoting the FMA in countries outside of the Philippine Islands, do you feel we are harming or doing a dis-service to the FMA in general, and to the Filipinos as a People by continuing to use the term Kali interchangeably with Arnis and Eskrima as a general term for the FMA? ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "sifujames@juno.com" Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 23:48:49 GMT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I wonder how fast some of you would be if we here in the US said do do an art called Kali that was totally home grown? How fast would people come up and say "Hey, that's' FMA and not some home grown art." But since we give credit to FMA as the origins of the art we get attacked on the terms. Well, if you don't want me to say what I do is FMA because I call it Kali, then I must think that what I do is really home grown and I will not bother giving credit to the country of origin as the Philippines. I will continue to give credit to my teachers for the great art they have shared with me. I also would want to know what those people who don't like the term Kali would have us change it to. Inosanto blend sounds good to me. but not everyone who uses the term Kali was lucky enough to train with Guro Inosanto. keep up the talk about training and that would be worth the reading. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 17:19:39 -0700 From: Eskrima-FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Cacoy Doce Pares Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Grandmaster gives new life to martial art Filipino hosts stick fighting workshop at Dragon's Den in Union City Matthew Artz UNION CITY, CA The Filipino martial art of stick fighting, Cacoy Doce Pares, is hard to defend against. And for centuries, it was even harder to learn. The Spanish colonialists killed Filipinos they saw practicing it and even after they were driven from power, the technique was mostly handed down from father to son in the privacy of Filipino homes and American garages. That began to change 40 years ago when Richard Bustillo — who studied under Bruce Lee — set upon the task of learning the fighting traditions of his ancestral land. In 1967, he flew to Hawaii, his home state, and working on tips from relatives and friends, started knocking on the doors of masters. "I knew from my family that there was a Filipino martial art and I wanted to learn it," said Bustillo, who is now a grand master and ninth degree black belt in Cacoy Doce Pares. He also happens to grace this month's covers of Inside Kung Fu and Black Belt Magazine. On Sunday, Bustillo gave a guest workshop in stick fighting and other martial arts at the Dragon's Den Kajukenbo Club in Union City. For nearly three hours, the barefooted students — which included a 40-year-old real estate appraiser and a teenager in continuation school — sparred with 3-foot wooden sticks and fake knives. Antonio Landaverde, a 17-year-old high school student from Hayward, doesn't plan on ever having to stab someone, but says the training still might come in handy. neighborhood we live in, it's good to know how to defend yourself against anything," he said. Stick fighting "is an art for the people," Bustillo said. It originated as a way for farmers and their kin, usually armed with a machete-like knife called a bolo, to fend off bandits. As a child growing up in Hawaii, Bustillo was mostly into judo and boxing. Then, while living in Los Angeles in 1964, he met Bruce Lee, who had begun mixing different martial arts. "What he was teaching in 1964 was exactly what I wanted to do," Bustillo said. "He showed me that you have to have an open mind or you will not grow." In 1967, Bustillo and Lee's other Filipino student at the time, Danny Inosanto, set out to learn stick fighting. It wasn't an easy proposition. Secrecy had been ingrained into the culture of the art since colonial times. "(Some instructors) were reluctant to teach us," Bustillo said. "In the '60s, if you asked people about Filipino arts, they said they didn't know." Over time, though, the duo found willing masters in Hawaii and Northern California, many of whom gave private lessons in their garages. They learned different modes of attack and taught some of them to Lee, who was no stranger to sword fighting. After Lee's death in 1973, Bustillo opened a school in Torrance that taught stick fighting and hosted masters from the Philippines. "Those two revived Filipino martial arts," said Jeffrey Macalolooy, a wrestling coach at Cesar Chavez Middle School and the owner of Dragon's Den. With the growing popularity of mixed martial arts, Filipino stick and knife fighting is beginning to go mainstream — a fact that fills Bustillo with ethnic pride. "I want to teach the arts to preserve our heritage," he said. "So children know there is a Filipino martial art." --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 19:21:57 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Garcia Subject: Re: [Eskrima] a question for native born Filipinos To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mabuhay Kristine, Good question. For a short answer, I'm tolerant of the use of the term kali. I, for one, am not for the abolition of the term kali. As James has said, pakikisama has a lot to do with this. Also, my stand is still a bit tentative on this debate, as I personally have not encountered any evidence that would convince me to totally accept or reject the term kali. The problem I see is all the other myths still being believed and promoted as true by some people, myths that are closely associated with the term kali. So, I'd say it still does depend on the usage. Moreover, though I did say that I'm tolerant of it's use, I'd still now rather avoid it when possible. Why? Because from my experiences here where I live and in other places that I've gone to, the terms most widely known by the manong and manang here (as in the usual old person on the street) are arnis and eskrima. Personally, the term kali still seems foreign to me. Gumagalang, RJ Garcia ----- Original Message ---- From: Kristine Strasburger To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Monday, June 4, 2007 3:14:22 AM Subject: [Eskrima] a question for native born Filipinos ... Question: For those of us teaching and promoting the FMA in countries outside of the Philippine Islands, do you feel we are harming or doing a dis-service to the FMA in general, and to the Filipinos as a People by continuing to use the term Kali interchangeably with Arnis and Eskrima as a general term for the FMA? (Notice that I am NOT referring to the use of Kali in any particular style, system, school or name, and I am also NOT referring to anyone who is claiming anything about Kali as a separate, distinct or "mother" art that is different from Arnis or Eskrima.) ... Please give me your advice...What would you like to hear me/us saying to best promote the Filipino Martial Arts in general here in the U.S.? "Come Learn Arnis / Eskrima / Kali - Martial Art of the Philippine Islands" or "Come Learn Arnis / Eskrima - Martial Art of the Philippine Islands"? We can't change history; only the future. Where do we go from here? Eagerly awaiting your responses, Respectfully, Kristine Strasburger www.HeartlandEskrimaSchool.com new photos and video links added to the photo gallery page-check them out! Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 23:59:53 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] New book on Balisong Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To EDers who train with the balisong, My book (co-authored with my son) Pananandata The Guide to Balisong Openings was released today (4 June 2007). 69 different openings are illustrated. Best. APMarinas Sr. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest