Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 19:46:03 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #186 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Karate & Arnis (bgdebuque) 2. Re: karatefication or arnisification (james jr. sy) 3. Re: a question for native born Filipinos (james jr. sy) 4. Re: Number of dialects (james jr. sy) 5. Re: Kali (james jr. sy) 6. Filipinoi Dialect and more (gatpuno@aol.com) 7. Re: Official No. of Filipino Regional Languages and Dialects (bgdebuque) 8. Meaning of FMA or names of FMA (Alex Ercia) 9. Re: Kali (Ray) 10. Re: Kali term (Bo Kaner) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 00:59:51 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Karate & Arnis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The best parallel would be the evolution of the UFC. In the early days, it is still easy to distinguish which fighter came from which style. Nowadays, everybody seem to fight the same way. > > Message: 7 > From: Pananandta@aol.com > Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 13:48:23 EDT > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] Karate & Arnis (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #183 - 10 > msgs) > > > Martial artists will always be looking for things to do differently and > are > likely to adopt ideas/movements from martial arts other than what they > started > with. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 04:23:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] karatefication or arnisification To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Prof. Bot, Karate-fication and arnis-ification would be fine additions to the Fil lingo just make sure no claims are attached to them least they add to the global warming :p Without a doubt it worked both ways. However, the outcome or degree of mix came out different for each instructor. Presas Style Modern Arnis was very frank about it having influences from Karate, Judo, and Jujitsu. The late founder and many of the high ranking masters of the art hold high dan ranks in Karate. Even GMs Ernesto and Roberto Presas have high ranks in Karate (Arjuken / Mano-Mano). For Presas Style Modern Arnis, at least the early version by GM Remy Presas, apparent Karate influences would include the stances, blocking (and its terminology), and kata among others. The throws and sweeps were clearly influences from Judo. These foreign influences made the style more systematic and comprehensible to foreign practitioners, especially those who were accustomed to the Japanese or Korean arts. When the professor was in the US, it was no doubt that more influences found their way into the style. Small Circle Jujitsu of GM Wally Jay comes to mind because both men were associates and friends. When the professor taught seminars in the US, Arnis was positioned as an add on to the participants’ base art. Since most of American martial artists at that time were Karatekas, we can say they were Arnis-ified while Presas Style Modern Arnis was kinda Karate-fied. Headmaster Mike F. Vasquez, Founder of Vasquez Modified Karate and Tapado, hold high ranks in both Karate and FMA. He taught these arts separately but he did import some concepts from Rikarte en Kruzada Arnis and Tapado into his personal system of Karate. Arnis Philippines Capiz Commissioner GM Carlito Ondillo of the Lightning Scientific Arnis International-Capiz Chapter uses Karate striking techniques to supplement the empty handed techniques of the late Founder Grandmaster Benjamin Luna Lema’s art. Some Arnisadors/Eskrimadors who had only practiced purely weaponed styles of FMA supplement their arsenal with Karate, Judo, and Jujitsu techniques. Some Karatekas on the other hand supplemented their empty hands skills with weapons work. If one wants to integrate Karate into Arnis or vice versa, it must be remembered that both arts have a different structures. Very apparent immediately is the stance. Arnis is strong side forward like Wing Chun while Karate is strong side backwards like western Boxing. You can usually know if the base of an Arnisador is Karate when he holds his stick in the right hand and leads with his left foot (just rough general estimation but not all). Some groups had chosen to integrate kicking into their stickfighting like the Lahos-Sipa in San Carlos City and Fight Club in Bacolod City (primarily an MMA gym). Personally I have doubts kicking especially when what is used is a live hard stick (like tula-tula) or blade. Some low kicks or sweeps would work out well while in close. The hiki-te of Karate works well in up close immobilization of the opponent’s weaponed hand using one’s live hand (as the case in Presas Style). At the other end we also have Arnisadors who cross train in Western Boxing or boxers who train in Escrima like Flash Elorde of Cebu and Manny “Pacman” Pacquiao of General Santos. There’s a link at Eskrima Digest that carries a story on the contribution of FMA to modern Queensbury Boxing. Regards, James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Felipe Jocano wrote: I have a question for everyone: if you had ever practiced karate and arnis together, has one influenced the other? In what way? For instance, has arnis been karatefied, so to speak? I would suppose it has to some extent, given the use of belts, uniforms, etc by many arnis systems - but if you could call this karatefication, has it also expressed itself in some other way? On the other hand, has your practice of karate been arnisified, so to speak (what a lousy term, but what the hey, until someone suggests a better one)? As in drills and kumite that have a flowing flavor akin to espada y daga etc.? --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 04:27:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] a question for native born Filipinos To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings Ms. Strasburger, Sorry for the delayed reply Ms. Strasburger. Had to do some out of town traveling this week for my daytime job. Just got back home. I believe in your sincerity. I agree in what you have previously posted. On May 27, 2007, I wrote, “I would agree with you Kristine. Guro Inosanto had categorically clarified his official definition of Kali as kamot lihok” in reference to your post on May 24, 2007, “The fact that the word "kali" exists in a number of different languages in various forms and with various meanings would be totally irrelevant and coincidental in this case.” I also wrote, “I would agree with you that it’s high time that Guro Inosanto makes a public statement of his stand on this issue. From there, any other pronouncements that would not coincide with what he says would obviously be from another party.” Your suggestion was a very valid point and a very welcome recommendation. For your question: “For those of us teaching and promoting the FMA in countries outside of the Philippine Islands, do you feel we are harming or doing a dis-service to the FMA in general, and to the Filipinos as a People by continuing to use the term Kali interchangeably with Arnis and Eskrima as a general term for the FMA?” Promoting FMA is a great service to the art itself, its place of origin, and the Filipino people. That we Filipinos have a lot to thank you Americans, Britons, etc. for. Kali as a brand name “to meet the needs of the western student” is never questioned nor as a generic term for FMA. The ridiculous claims attached to Kali are the things in question. Those who perpetrate the ridiculous claims downgrade those in the Philippines are the ones doing a disservice to FMA. You’re correct when you said that we can't change history, only the future. We can probably do this by correcting untrue claims that have found their way into the system for falsehoods that are repeated often enough becomes gospel truth. In the past, Filipinos were silent about this issue for the sake of pakisama but as time went by claims are getting wilder and many times to the detriment of our real MA traditions. The new generation, with the help of the older generation, is doing their part, inspite of the risks and criticisms involved, to correct these misconceptions. We may be seen as having an agenda or promoting something but the simple truth is that we just want the world to see FMA as it really is. We share with our non-Filipino bro/sis what we know as true in the Philippines but we find Filipinos being questioned (and many times humiliated) by non-Filipinos for that in the various forums. I am but one voice from those many who share the same view. I am just fortunate enough to have access to this technology. That’s why I try to speak for those Filipinos who had no avenue to. The term Kali is indeed already embedded in the American culture as Gat Puno Abon had said and as Stephen/Steve said, “you can’t put the Kali genie back.” But a good way to start might be for the leaders to make the initiative. Correcting notions and discarding claims proven wrong would be a good step. The leaders themselves are the key. There’s no need to blame. We all make a slip sometimes and we don’t have to carry it all the time. I agree with you when you said, to help educate people. There’s no other way. When people become aware, less and less will make ridiculous claims because people will learn to question them when they come face to face with these claims. It’s a slow and gradual process but would be worth the try. In the end, the question would be who will be willing to make that great sacrifice? James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Born, raised, and living in Negros Occidental Had traveled to at least 38 towns and cities in the RP Kristine Strasburger wrote: Mr. James Sy, Question: For those of us teaching and promoting the FMA in countries outside of the Philippine Islands, do you feel we are harming or doing a dis-service to the FMA in general, and to the Filipinos as a People by continuing to use the term Kali interchangeably with Arnis and Eskrima as a general term for the FMA? (Notice that I am NOT referring to the use of Kali in any particular style, system, school or name, and I am also NOT referring to anyone who is claiming anything about Kali as a separate, distinct or "mother" art that is different from Arnis or Eskrima.) .... Please give me your advice...What would you like to hear me/us saying to best promote the Filipino Martial Arts in general here in the U.S.? "Come Learn Arnis / Eskrima / Kali - Martial Art of the Philippine Islands" or "Come Learn Arnis / Eskrima - Martial Art of the Philippine Islands"? We can't change history; only the future. Where do we go from here? Eagerly awaiting your responses, Respectfully, Kristine Strasburger www.HeartlandEskrimaSchool.com new photos and video links added to the photo gallery page-check them out! --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 04:41:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Number of dialects To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings Pat, There are 87 dialects and about 168 or so languages in the Philippines. By international linguistic standards, dialects are defined as mutually intelligible versions of a language. For instance, the lingua franca in Roxas City in Capiz is mutually intelligible with the one used in Iloilo City. Both dialects belong to the Hiligaynon Language. Those that I speak and understand from the Philippines include: 1. Hiligaynon / Ilonggo Language - A member of the Central Visayan branch of the Visayan Languages which is spoken in the Northern coast of Iloilo, Southwest Masbate, most of Guimaras, West Negros, and parts of the Cotabato provinces. 2. Cebuano Language - One of the 5 branches of the Visayan Language spoken in Cebu, East Negros, Siquijor, Bohol, Southeastern Masbate, West and South Leyte, West Biliran, Camiguin, and most of Mindanao. 3. Tagalog Language - A member of the Southern branch of Philippine languages and the most spoken in the Philippines, with 46% of the population speaking/understanding it. 4. Karay-a Language - A member of the Western Visayan branch of the Visayan Language which is spoken in most of Panay- South and interior Iloilo, Southwest Guimaras, interior Capiz, and Antique. The 5 branches of the Visayan languages belong to the Southern branch of Philippine languages to which the Mindanao, Bicol, and Tagalog languages also belong. Hiligaynon and Karay-a are used by the Ilonggo ethnic people and are spoken by about 9% of the Philippine Population. Both languages belong to the Malayo-Polynesian branch of the Austronesian languages, one of the world's largest language families, both in terms of numbers of languages (more than 1,200) and geographical spread (from Madagascar to Easter Island near the coast of South America). Most of the words in Hiligaynon and Karay-a are cognate to the words found in other Visayan languages. Cebuano and Ilonggo constitute two of the three languages that come after Tagalog as the most widely spoken in the Philippines (the other is Ilocano). Regards. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. iPat wrote: James, i have been told there are 96 dialects while others argue 88. (i may have theose numbers wrong) In your studies how many dialects do you know of? On 6/7/07, james jr. sy wrote: > Hi PG Mat, > > From the looks of the words I'd say nobody in the Visayas would know the meaning of those wrods. > > The words "salakab" and "tungya" refer to fishing implements? > > Regards. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 04:35:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It all started this way… Jay de Leon wrote, “I remember reading somewhere that Tuhon is a derivative of the word tuan, a Malayan or Indonesia word which is term of respect meaning sir or mister, but may also mean master or lord. James Sy replied on April 26, 2007, “If that is indeed the origin of the word, then we can say that the title tujon is not a term indigenous to the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) but a product of the continued evolution and mixing of languages.” To which Pat Davies replied on the same day, “which is the FMA isnt it? Arnis wasnt arnis before the spanish got there was it?” Which part of my post was the agenda you were talking about? Please note that I was picky with my words and was nowhere attacking Kali. And please look at your post. Yes, many falsehoods do exist in the other martial arts…Terry Dukes, Jack Stern, Chung Moo Doe, etc….And they too have been questioned. Your stand that “the term came from Filipinos who had settled in the US and who were very keen on keeping their culture alive” was never questioned. You wrote that GM “Lacoste referred to terms to the young Inosanto by using terms in the elder fathers dialect.” I’ve asked you before and I will ask you again, which dialect was it? An answer would be highly appreciated. You wrote, “…Lacoste…Inosanto…To suggest that these men simply made up a term that is now 'offensive' is both naiive and ignorant.” I wasn’t being naïve and ignorant since I didn’t suggest that Lacoste and Inosanto made up the term. If you had read my and the other posters’ posts, you’d realize that the kamot lihok term has be ascribed to and is being acknowledged by GMs Villabrille and Largusa. You wrote, “you bicker over something that may never be proved by paper Trail.” Ah yes, I’ve forwarded several proofs already, proofs that up to this point you have not disproven in any way. Research is not bickering. I use facts, facts with proof. If at any given time, any poster at ED including you can show convincing factual/historical proof to invalidate all the criticisms hurled at Kali, then I believe the people who criticize the ridiculous claims of Kali would stop. I for one will publicly admit I was wrong if my forwarded evidences will all be invalidated. You wrote, “Dispel all the myths and you might lose a treasuer that you are blind to.” We protect our treasured MA culture by dispelling the myths associated with it and present our MA culture to the world as it really is. We Filipinos, in general, wish not to blind the world by giving them myths. If you’re referring to money as the treasure, there are many things in life that money can’t buy. When you do what is right, money will come. You wrote, “There is too much to learn in too short a time to waste on repetitive questions on the source of a term to which an answer has been given.” Martial arts are not just about physical proficiency, its’s about the integration of body, mind, and spirit. Just train the body and you just end up as a fighter. Why do we need to dig down deeper into the history, culture, terminology, etc. of the art we are teaching? We can always club or slice our partners and our peers senseless but as teachers it is our duty to our students and to the general public to know the nuisances of the arts we propagate so that we are asked questions we can answer them thoroughly and convincingly, with no doubt in our heart. If we see ourselves as the transmitters of skill and knowledge to the next generation, we must equip ourselves so that we don’t shortchange the society we are supposed to be teaching. That is why prominent Western warrior scholars such as Donn Draeger, Robert Smith, Dr. Mark V. Wiley, Krishna Gohania, etc. were not hesitant to pursue the nuisances of the arts they practiced and taught. But then each of us have our own paths. God bless. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. iPat wrote: On 6/3/07, james jr. sy wrote: > It's stressful being in the forefront of this Kali debate. If you try reading back in previous posts, this debate is already more than a month old and it was started by a simple inquiry on the term guru, massaguru, and tuhon. I don't normally express myself much publicly prior to this thread and I always try to be "neutral" and picky with my words. But it's a different story when people start defending, in many times in an offensive tone, claims that we know are falsehoods. > i disagree with this. personally i withdrew from the converstaion as i saw it was being manipulated by careful editing in order to fit the agnda that you are promoting. I can understand your zeal but there have been points made here which are being ignored. I, for one, do not disagree that there is a lot of myth and ignorance that people repeat - mostly in good faith - and that is not really different from any other art or subject throughout the world. I do not disagree with the consensus that the use of the term has been exploited for commercial reasons. What i have suggested all the way through through though is that the term came from Filipinos who had settled in the US and who were very keen on keeping their culture alive in the face of what they saw as a distilling of certain values. These were people with small businesses surviving week to week in the fields, not commercial investors sewing the seeds of new business ventures. Some of these were very intelligent people, well respected in the community who were well versed in their history. i have recounted early on how Lacoste refferred to terms to the young inosanto by using terms in the elder fathers dialect - a term not readily recognised by a variety of residents familiar with many different dialects. This with the undertsanding of the 96 dialects (some say 88) is clear indication that what one may take as meaning for one thing may not be understood by others. The infulence of Lacoste on Inosanto is immence, where he still puts his teachers name before his. Lacoste was multi lingual, very versed in the cultural diversity and history of the Phillippines as was the Inosanto senior. These were intelligent men with vested interest in keeping their cultural history alive and not being lost in the throwaway culture that was facing them. To suggest that these men simply made up a term that is now 'offensive' is both naiive and ignorant. I receive mails more frequently now asking why i teach a muslim art to non muslims and that lacoste was wrong to have started the trend! While you bicker over something that may never be proved by paper trail there are greater threats in life. Sure, there are myths that should be addressed but there is also a rich tapestry in all cultures that has myths woven into them. Dispel all the myths and you might lose a treasuer that you are blind to. I have had the discussions with my instructor over the term and i am happy with the answers. I have travelled to and back from Germany to train with Guro Inosanto this weekend past and have been exposed to new material that came from lacoste. There is too much to learn in too short a time to waste on repetitive questions on the source of a term to which an answer has been given. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. --__--__-- Message: 6 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 10:01:02 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Filipinoi Dialect and more Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You said clear that the knowledge of the meaning of the word is vries in diiferent degrees. Meaning there is no possible way, that the "Kali" used to be the name of all FMA? You said clear, that we are multi-dialect, and need to make a database so we can see what the differences as well as the same meaning of each word dialect that we used. Example "Kamot" in Visaya in Tagalog "Kamot" is scratch. I understand that, and I think that is a very good idea, if we can gather some scholar of each dialect, then we are in the right path to do that. it will take a life time to gather such information from all over the Philippines. Specially each Dialect has its own "local" variation, street talk, and each Dialect is keep adding new words each year. Our Filipino Dictionary has a lot of additional words now than when the world is not yet computer literate. But even though it hard, I would support your effort to this, I would love to see this project materialized, not for FMA is for all Filipino and Filpino kids born and raised outside the Philippines, and off-course th thoise non-Filipino that want to learn the Filipino Culture. The dialect can show that we Filipino is really diverse country. In contrary to "Kali" I am not opposed that Kali is not exist, it might in some dialect, but what is the meaning of the "kali" word that in existence. So far we can't find anyone can thrown us some clear answer, until then I am opposed that "Kali" is the first name of Arnis, Eskrima. I would assume that Pananadata, is the forerunner of Arnis weaponry, Gabo, Buno, Dumog, Bultong, Bugtong, Lumad, is the Filipino Wrestling , Suntukan, Upakan, Buntalan, Panuntukan, and Pangamot is the forerunner of Mano-mano, The Sikaran, Sikadan, Tadyakan, Panadyakan, and Sipaan, if the Filipino Kicking arts. So far, all Kali word that we encounter is always not connected to Martial arts. Now what excuse can we used even among us Filipino trying to accept the words of no such base? I am sorry, but without strong evidence, we cant just say lay back and accept what being claim here. This does not matter or covered how many articles you wrotes, how many book you published, how many years you teach, how many practitioner you foughts, and how many Master and fighter you defeated. This is a matter of a word, that is not known to us, claimed to be the first name of the arts we love. I refused to stop searching for the truth and that is our rights as Filipino and enhiritors of the arts. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com Their knowledge of the meanings of the words are of different degrees. By the same token, the knowledge of the existence of the names of the words used to refer to Philippine stick and knife fighting can be blurry for some, almost known to some and very definite for some others. If there is a dictionary for all the dialects in the Philippines, there will be common words with the same spelling that might have the same meanings but then there are also words that might have acquired different meanings (over time) such as kali. There will be also words that are totally foreign to each dialect. Hence, it will not be safe to make the conclusion that a word does not exist because it is not in a particular dialect's dictionary. A good way to check would be to create a database of all dialects separately, then merged, then sorted alphabetically. (Fields names could include:word, meaning, name of dialect; primary sort will be word and the secondary sort will be dialect) But then there will be words that could fall between the cracks. Kali, with the meaning that has been attached to it as a martial art, could be one of these words. This could lead to the conclusion that the word kali does not exist. Dong, you didn't have to wait till October. Tungya is used in rivers. Ateneo and LaSalle are both Catholic schools. They are two of the best schools in the Philippines. Thanks guys. APMarinas Sr. ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 12:13:06 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Official No. of Filipino Regional Languages and Dialects Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Based on the latest press release below from the Country's Commission on the Filipino Language, officially, we have "more than 179" different languages and dialects. ***************************** >From Inquirer.net: Body to develop, preserve RP's other languages By Peter La. Julian Northern Luzon Bureau Last updated 08:07pm (Mla time) 06/09/2007 BATAC, Ilocos Norte -- Instead of focusing solely on the national language, Filipino, the Komisyon sa Wikang Filipino (KWF or Commission on the Filipino Language) has revised its vision toward the development, propagation, and preservation of the country's more than 179 dialects and regional languages. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Alex Ercia" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 12:26:50 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Meaning of FMA or names of FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey guys! I have so much respect for your many comments/idea of the FMA. Here's one quote that I admired today from GP Abon Baet who is one of my great brothers and mentors in the Laguna arts: "To me FMA is is not sport its is a value of life and one culture. To be come one you must understand the nature of the arts.. Conflict.... ----------Gat Puno Abon Baet of the Garimot system I know we have had a lot of sharing be it good or bad and confrontational about who, which or what the name of our filipino art should be. Be it Kali, Eskrima/Esgrima/Escrima, Arnis/Arnis de mano, Garote, Espada y daga/Ginunting dagaso/Olisi Baraw. See there is also Yahming and others. Here's one quote from a very knowledgable person I also admire and he says this about FMA: "There are many names for FMA. Yahming, Kali, Arnis, Eskrima you name it we have it. But these may not sometimes be the truth in our time and place. Why because all of these were true in the other generations and groups in our own time and place. Be it Luzon, Visayas, Mindanao, and outside the Philippines. It just goes in a circle. Sometimes we call it arnis, sometimes eskrima sometimes kali, and so on. It like saying You are Alex. when your dad gets mad it's Alexander!!!!!!!!! When your girl calls you it's Lex. When your buddy calls you it's Lexy/A-hole/Alex/Biatch/MF/Baboy/Taba/Fatso. It's just one of those names. So take all the names. because in the Thesaurus one word may have similar meanings or refer to one thing. And that is Filipino martial Culture for you. Serrada/Cerrado/Sarado you get my drift." -------------------Kalaki Master Inoncencio "Sioc" Glaraga. We are all learning FMA for our own reasons. Some are Warriors at heart. Others for Fitness. And others are Fighters. Some of us are all of the above but we also want to preserve the legacy of our culture or adopted culture. Preserve and hand down the legacy and knowledge to the next generation which is my purpose as a Warrior/Fighter and practitioner of Arnis. If we are like the above. Rank, Titles, Certificates and let's not forget Names of our arts is not important to us. Because at the end of each practice session. When we go get some beers and drink. Does the beer you drink have one name or a few? Even Coke has so many names I am still trying to catch up with it. So like Filipinos let's drink to this. We all love the FMA. Or go home and Plant Kamote!!!! As we say it in Laguna. Here's a quote from me: Tama na yan mga pare. Pare pareho yan. Ensayo na lang tayo para gumaling tayo. (That's enough guys! Let's just train so we all get better) Next Topic Please! Cheers! Alex Ercia _________________________________________________________________ Don’t miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 9 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 13:11:06 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Why do we need to dig down deeper into the history, culture, terminology, etc. of the art we are teaching? We can always club or slice our partners and our peers senseless but as teachers it is our duty to our students and to the general public to know the nuisances of the arts we propagate so that we are asked questions we can answer them thoroughly and convincingly, with no doubt in our heart. > > If we see ourselves as the transmitters of skill and knowledge to the next generation, we must equip ourselves so that we don’t shortchange the society we are supposed to be teaching. That is why prominent Western warrior scholars such as Donn Draeger, Robert Smith, Dr. Mark V. Wiley, Krishna Gohania, etc. were not hesitant to pursue the nuisances of the arts they practiced and taught. > This is a very key point. Being a student of the art is fine, but if one ever hopes to become a teacher of the art(s) then it is extremely important to know the facts and the history of what it is we're teaching. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 20:39:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Bo Kaner To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Kali term Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Kristine, have a good day! I think it would be better to just call it filipino martial arts there in the US when referring to arinis/escrima. this will show respect to the old masters here. If ever you visit our place, Negros , and ask the old masters about kali they will just show a blank face as if asking what is that. They are used to calling their art arnis/escrima. What makes me jump off my feet is that when foreigners visit the old masters they bring their filipino collaborators and let the old masters makes a demonstration of their art. without realizing that they are beiing videod. and in the end the filipino collaborator would tell the old master that what is being demonstrated is to call it kali. Now this is showing disrespect to the old masters here. Kindly call it FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS. if your student would ask what is the filipino term for it, just state arnis/escrima. If you use these terms, you will be easily understood by the locals here all over the archipelago. this is just my cup of tea. Visit us here for one week and try to talk to the old people who practices arnis and you will know what i mean. respectfully yours, bo --------------------------------- Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest