Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 02:58:30 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #187 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Kali Attn. James (Bo Kaner) 2. Re: After Kamote comes Kali (again???) (bgdebuque) 3. Add-on Arnis-Karate-Judo same same (gatpuno@aol.com) 4. FMA names (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #186 - 11 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 5. Arnis-fication (gatpuno@aol.com) 6. Re: Arnis-fication (Patrick Pace) 7. arnis (steve mulligan) 8. Re: Kali (iPat) 9. Re: Arnis-fication (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 20:50:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Bo Kaner To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Kali Attn. James Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net James, have a good day! this is in reference to what i posted re: foreigners videoing our local masters and telling them to call it Kali. >From what I gathered, they (foreigners with filipino collaborators) waited for Mr. Jose Aguilar, the local oido grandmaster after the old man attended a mass. The old man did not recognize Leo G. but recognized Jeff M. who wanted the old man to demonstrate his art. They were with two foreigners I believed americans who SECRETLY took videos of the old man. Now this is what we locally call "Pangawat" without the permission of the old man. Not satisfied with their deed, Jeff M. instructed the old man to call his art KALI. In which the old man retorted that, "Ano, Kali kamote". Kindly translate this na lang. I dont know if what the old man did really uttered those words. This is disrespect to our indgenous Negrense art. Kindly try to verify this. This is the same thing that happend during the Japanese occupation wherein the collaborators turned in their filipino guerillas to the Japanese. Your fellow negrense. Bo --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 00:45:49 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] After Kamote comes Kali (again???) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It might be the easy way out in Laguna... but not in the Ilonggo-speaking parts of the country. Once the "kamote" (Visayan sweet potato) root has grown, you have to "KALI" (dig) it out... =[:->] Now, there are three (3) general approaches of doing "kali" on the "kamote"... The first one is bare-handed... The second one is using a sharpened wooden or bamboo stick... The third one is using a metal blade... Isn't it interesting how the act of doing "kali" on the "kamote" seem to mimic the favorite topics on the FMA??? =[:->] Or go home and Plant > Kamote!!!! As we say it in Laguna. > > Cheers! > Alex Ercia --__--__-- Message: 3 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 07:57:14 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Add-on Arnis-Karate-Judo same same Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Let me share a simple story that my father told me as I am growing up. Fighting is different than Martial Arts. Fighting is part of martial arts, but their fighting without martial arts. Look at this way, Boxing and other contact sports is not fighting, is a "Game" in a circle of rules and regulation, rules by the regulatory boards. Now, Arnis/Eskrima is not just Martial arts, it is a way of life, traditionally hidden among their peers. You need to outsmart your prespective assailant or else you would lost one battle if he knows you plan to hurts him. "Stickfighting Tourney" is fall in the categorally contact sports, its part of Arnis and Eskrima, but theirs only half of the arts shown during Tournaments. The arts itself speak for itself "Harnessing and Fencing" means guards or covered. Now if the masters Arnis/Eskrima faces someone in sports fighter, the fights is seems lights to the master of Arnis/Eskrima to handle. Master of Eskrima/Arnis can handle and "survived" from multiple attacker and multi weapon opponents. In contact Sports both party is equally measure or gauge and categorally weight, and skills level of each player. In Arnis/Eskrima master dealth with no classes, from single opponent to a multiple opponents, and if you are really a master of Arnis/Ekrima you got more chances of "surviving' from this conflict. Key words "Survival" this is the very essense of martial arts. I am a big believer of Arnis/Eskrima, I can only speak from experienced. I have no exposure of "Karate, JUdo, Jujitsu and other martial arts" until I went to Manila on 1985. Television is not my passion since I was force to take care of my large family on my early age. No chances of luxury growing up, I was not exposed to the others arts only strickly Arnis, Eskrima, Estokada and Buno. My Father used to kick-butt all "Karate , Judo and oither Martial Arts master that set school in our town". Up to this day there is no "Karate school in our town. I sparred in Manila from various martial arts, Master Willy Annang Head of Modern Arnis Federation of the Philippines, at that time took me to a various place meet and see different martial artist. I sparred from Shorin Ryu Karate, Shotokan, Aikikai Fighter, Black Kimono Judo Club, Fencer, Iado, Kendo and Modern Arnis player from brown belt and Blackbelt. As a young age I am only 17 years old then, but I was able to match up and won each fight. There is also Willy Annang took me to the house of Rosemarie Presas, and there he awarded me the first ever "Blackbelt" I ever earned in martial arts. I know I dont fought the head of each martial arts, and I believed that each martial arts has something to offer and we work on the common ground 'inflicting pain" to the body. But I do believed Arnis Eskrima alone can stand to anyl martila arts. I have no doubt that Karate, Judo, and other martial arts compliment my skills in Arnis as I am fighting them, I absorb their essential skills and learn how to counter them and ultimately defeat them. I also would like to mentioned also that "Karate" and "Judo" and other martial arts is the same as Arnis/Eskrima. It only different in the name, karate, Kung-fu in Japan China "mano-mano" in FMA, Tae-kwondo in Korea "Sikaran in FMA" Iado, Kendo, other weapon arts is simply Pananandata in FMA. On my Missouri Seminar, I have the pleasure of having one of the University Fencing Instructor, and I know he has some doubt in FMA claimed that we can out play them, as I am going to the seminar later on that day. He came to me ans said if he know Arnis/Eskirma before he can easily won take Gold in each competition he has been going. I said its is not too late , and you still can incorporate the thoery to your new wave of student. I believed that we can learn from each other, they can learn form us.. Arnis-Karate-Kudo-Aikido-Kedo-Iado same same as my instructor said. Peace, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:14:58 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA names (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #186 - 11 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It is more likely that each dialect had its own name for the FMA in ancient times. It is also possible, that within each dialect, that there could have been more than one name for the FMA. It will not be possible to say that one name is the forerunner of another name because our Filipino ancestors was not known for good record keeping. They kept everything in their heads and did not bother to write. When they got "untog" they forgot what was in their heads and they got all mixed up. "Untog - bangs head accidentally on a hard object or worse got hit with a yantok on the head.) I am assuming that present-day FMA practitioners chose the name (for their system) that they are most comfortable with. I chose pananandata for this reason. It will not be too difficult to come up with a "universal database". The only problem is money. There are many brilliant young students in the Philippines who would love to do such work. One possible way would be for a mentor in a university to assign the creation of the database to a graduate student who is looking for a topic for his dissertation/thesis. The initial effort should have modest goals: Start with any existing dictionaries of different dialects. In the meantime, there will be concurrent work on the preparation of other dictionaries and so on. Eventually the "universal database" will become a reality. I can direct the effort but I don't live in the Philippines anymore and it will require a great deal of sacrifice at the expense of my family. Best. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 6/10/2007 12:01:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: You said clear that the knowledge of the meaning of the word is vries in diiferent degrees. Meaning there is no possible way, that the "Kali" used to be the name of all FMA? ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 5 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:44:48 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Arnis-fication Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bot wrote: I have a question for everyone: if you had ever practiced karate and arnis together, has one influenced the other? In what way? For instance, has arnis been karatefied, so to speak? I would suppose it has to some extent, given the use of belts, uniforms, etc by many arnis systems - but if you could call this karatefication, has it also expressed itself in some other way? On the other hand, has your practice of karate been arnisified, so to speak (what a lousy term, but what the hey, until someone suggests a better one)? As in drills and kumite that have a flowing flavor akin to espada y daga etc.? Bot. This is interesting, On 1989, after leaving the Cruise Ship work, I joined my wife in Miami, Florida. I was board I start teaching seven Filipino kids, range 10 years old to 12. I taught them for about 6 months, but at that time, I have no curricullum that I follow, I just taught them the strikes and defense then go to application in single opponent to multiple opponent, from weapon, boxing, kicking to the buno (Ground fighting). But my big mistake I forget to tell them how to handle adversary. They got into trouble in Junior High, and fought side by side against Hispanic and Black kids. The trouble got dipper when they found the Filipino Gang called "Flip Gang". They were all expelled at school I gave them an ultimatum and demolished their Gang, I challenge them, that I am not to accept them anymore as my student if they continues doing that. I have to admit, all of this kids attract many followers, and challenge Karate, Kung-Fu paractitioner in school. But I hate the fact that I created a monster that I can't even kill it. But all of them return and follow my request, and give them a tiime to clean their act before I would accept them again as student. At the same year, I enrolled at Miami Karate Academy, as white belt owned by Sensei John Segars 4rth degree Blackbelt in Shorin Ryu Karate. A very well organized US Karate Organization Found by GM Trias. He took me as a white belt, and every class there is a 15 minutes sparring, and no matter how I tried to fake my movement, I can't I can easily counter my partner. Its so natural to me to stop him before he can hurt me. Since I am one of the adult, he paired me with his brown belt that he is the one teaching the Kyu (bigginer), and everytime we sparr Sensei Segars watching me. Then few days later, he confronted me and asked me if I know Martial Arts? I said "No" I dont know martial arts. As I continue taking classes with him, he corner me again to his office and asked me one more time if I know martial arts? I answer him again, I said "No". But i told him I practiced Arnis-Eskrima and he look at me and said That is Martial Arts. I told him, I dont know that what he meant, i thought he is asking me if I know "karate"? I never consider Arnis-Eskirma Martial arts, since my father told me that "martial art" is the art fighting used by the Military, that why they call Martial Arts. Anyway, since then, Sensei Segars asked me to teach and he will help me to get student including himself. I was hesitant at first, so i just drop out at karate and start practicing on my house. Then 1990 I was introduced to Dwight Woods one of Guro Insosanto student teaching JKD and Kali, and told me about Guro Inosanto's Seminar. So on my exitements I attended the Seminar on Nov. 1990 and I meet Guro Inosanto and GM Bo Sayoc. I saw how FMA is well accepted here in the US. I started to organized classes again, and this time I am opening the door for the first time to the Public mean Filipino and Non-Filipino. I went back to Miami Karate Academy and accept the offer to used their facility for my class. There I start attracting instructors of Karate, Jujitsu, Judo, Kung-fu, Tae Kwon Do practitioner to learn the Garimot System of Arnis de Mano. I have a lot of student that already in high ranking Balckbelt in their first love Martial Arts. I teach them, sparred with them, and continues progress them to the Filipino Martial Arts. Today I after seeing the fruit of my labor to those student. I feel how I can easily defeated them before now I have a hard time to get them, as they progress to the arts they absorbs the essensial key to counter every attack and counter attacks. I am a believer of skill first before belt, so most them learn the arts without a belt, and I awarded them their rank as I can see their progress withour going to test themselved in the curricullum. Basic curricullum is a guide to teach student but is not based for the rank of each individual. One has to over come their peers first, learn how to fight from sngle to multiple opponent and weapon thorough empty hand to the grounds. If they failed to that, then they have more Rice to eat before they become the true Eskrimador and Arnisador. But one thing I told them to do "dont leave your original' arts, becaused I know it will help them to to ther training. I believed all martial Arts has something to offer, its depend to the student how much he can absorb. I kick-out a lot student that I think is not right for the arts. Many of them asked me for a blcakbelt after few months of training, i told them, if they want blackbelt, go buy it on the store. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:32:56 -0700 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Arnis-fication From: Patrick Pace To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have found that Arnis/Escrima has greatly influenced my striking (I come from a Muay Thai/American Kenpo background) and hand sensitivity in my training/fighting. I have also found it is much easier to...hmmmm what term can I use? Dynamic Flow would be a good way of describing it I suppose. The ability to flow with relaxed power until the moment of contact. I feel that the Sumbrado exercises have also helped with this and my hand/eye coordination. I can't comment on Forms or sets as I tend not to focus on those anymore.... Hope this helps Patrick On Sunday, June 10, 2007, at 06:44 AM, gatpuno@aol.com wrote: > Bot wrote: > > I have a question for everyone: if > you had ever > practiced karate and arnis together, has one > influenced the other? In what way? For instance, has > arnis been karatefied, so to speak? I would suppose it > has to some extent, given the use of belts, uniforms, > etc by many arnis systems - but if you could call this > karatefication, has it also expressed itself in some > other way? > > On the other hand, has your practice of karate been > arnisified, so to speak (what a lousy term, but what > the hey, until someone suggests a better one)? As in > drills and kumite that have a flowing flavor akin to > espada y daga etc.? > > > Bot. > > This is interesting, On 1989, after leaving the Cruise Ship work, I > joined my wife in Miami, Florida. I was board I start teaching seven > Filipino kids, range 10 years old to 12. I taught them for about 6 > months, but at that time, I have no curricullum that I follow, I just > taught them the strikes and defense then go to application in single > opponent to multiple opponent, from weapon, boxing, kicking to the > buno (Ground fighting). But my big mistake I forget to tell them how > to handle adversary. They got into trouble in Junior High, and fought > side by side against Hispanic and Black kids. The trouble got dipper > when they found the Filipino Gang called "Flip Gang". They were all > expelled at school I gave them an ultimatum and demolished their Gang, > I challenge them, that I am not to accept them anymore as my student > if they continues doing that. I have to admit, all of this kids > attract many followers, and challenge Karate, Kung-Fu paractitioner in > school. But I hate the fact that I created a monster that I can't even > kill it. But all of them return and follow my request, and give them a > tiime to clean their act before I would accept them again as student. > > At the same year, I enrolled at Miami Karate Academy, as white belt > owned by Sensei John Segars 4rth degree Blackbelt in Shorin Ryu > Karate. A very well organized US Karate Organization Found by GM > Trias. He took me as a white belt, and every class there is a 15 > minutes sparring, and no matter how I tried to fake my movement, I > can't I can easily counter my partner. Its so natural to me to stop > him before he can hurt me. Since I am one of the adult, he paired me > with his brown belt that he is the one teaching the Kyu (bigginer), > and everytime we sparr Sensei Segars watching me. Then few days later, > he confronted me and asked me if I know Martial Arts? I said "No" I > dont know martial arts. As I continue taking classes with him, he > corner me again to his office and asked me one more time if I know > martial arts? I answer him again, I said "No". But i told him I > practiced Arnis-Eskrima and he look at me and said That is Martial > Arts. I told him, I dont know that what he meant, i thought he is > asking me if I know "karate"? I never consider Arnis-Eskirma Martial > arts, since my father told me that "martial art" is the art fighting > used by the Military, that why they call Martial Arts. > > Anyway, since then, Sensei Segars asked me to teach and he will help > me to get student including himself. I was hesitant at first, so i > just drop out at karate and start practicing on my house. Then 1990 I > was introduced to Dwight Woods one of Guro Insosanto student teaching > JKD and Kali, and told me about Guro Inosanto's Seminar. So on my > exitements I attended the Seminar on Nov. 1990 and I meet Guro > Inosanto and GM Bo Sayoc. I saw how FMA is well accepted here in the > US. I started to organized classes again, and this time I am opening > the door for the first time to the Public mean Filipino and > Non-Filipino. I went back to Miami Karate Academy and accept the offer > to used their facility for my class. > > There I start attracting instructors of Karate, Jujitsu, Judo, > Kung-fu, Tae Kwon Do practitioner to learn the Garimot System of Arnis > de Mano. I have a lot of student that already in high ranking > Balckbelt in their first love Martial Arts. I teach them, sparred with > them, and continues progress them to the Filipino Martial Arts. Today > I after seeing the fruit of my labor to those student. I feel how I > can easily defeated them before now I have a hard time to get them, as > they progress to the arts they absorbs the essensial key to counter > every attack and counter attacks. > > I am a believer of skill first before belt, so most them learn the > arts without a belt, and I awarded them their rank as I can see their > progress withour going to test themselved in the curricullum. Basic > curricullum is a guide to teach student but is not based for the rank > of each individual. One has to over come their peers first, learn how > to fight from sngle to multiple opponent and weapon thorough empty > hand to the grounds. If they failed to that, then they have more Rice > to eat before they become the true Eskrimador and Arnisador. > > But one thing I told them to do "dont leave your original' arts, > becaused I know it will help them to to ther training. I believed all > martial Arts has something to offer, its depend to the student how > much he can absorb. I kick-out a lot student that I think is not > right for the arts. Many of them asked me for a blcakbelt after few > months of training, i told them, if they want blackbelt, go buy it on > the store. > > > > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet > Garimot Arnis Training Group International > Laguna Arnis Federation International > US Harimaw Buno Federation > Hilot Research center USA > Tel. 954-432-4433 > www.garimot.com > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's > free from AOL at AOL.com. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:21:10 -0400 From: "steve mulligan" To: Subject: [Eskrima] arnis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, does anyone know of a connection between the Magic Circle of Spanish fencing, and the FMA..... thanks, Steve --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:06:17 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On 6/9/07, james jr. sy wrote: > > You wrote that GM "Lacoste referred to terms to the young Inosanto by using terms in the elder fathers dialect." I've asked you before and I will ask you again, which dialect was it? An answer would be highly appreciated. James, i must have missed your question, one which i cant answer as i never noted if it was mentioned. But the emphasis based on this insight is that, along with the knowledge that many ancient manuscripts were destroyed or removed by the Spanish that the ability to find certain evidence may not be possible. > > You wrote, "…Lacoste…Inosanto…To suggest that these men simply made up a term that is now 'offensive' is both naiive and ignorant." I wasn't being naïve and ignorant since I didn't suggest that Lacoste and Inosanto made up the term. If you had read my and the other posters' posts, you'd realize that the kamot lihok term has be ascribed to and is being acknowledged by GMs Villabrille and Largusa. im fully aware of the term James, but you seem to ignore the relevance of Lacoste posted by several people now. > > If at any given time, any poster at ED including you can show convincing factual/historical proof to invalidate all the criticisms hurled at Kali, then I believe the people who criticize the ridiculous claims of Kali would stop. I for one will publicly admit I was wrong if my forwarded evidences will all be invalidated. > you have brought a wealth of knowledge to this discussion but you do so with your table already laid which is what i meant by agenda. There is a lot that cannot be proven so we need to look at certain factors and accept that these are still treasures and yes some will over exaggerate but it all adds to the wealth of the arts. > You wrote, "Dispel all the myths and you might lose a treasuer that you are blind to." We protect our treasured MA culture by dispelling the myths associated with it and present our MA culture to the world as it really is. We Filipinos, in general, wish not to blind the world by giving them myths. If you're referring to money as the treasure, there are many things in life that money can't buy. When you do what is right, money will come. no, i wasnt refferring to money. > > > Why do we need to dig down deeper into the history, culture, terminology, etc. of the art we are teaching? We can always club or slice our partners and our peers senseless but as teachers it is our duty to our students and to the general public to know the nuisances of the arts we propagate so that we are asked questions we can answer them thoroughly and convincingly, with no doubt in our heart. > > If we see ourselves as the transmitters of skill and knowledge to the next generation, we must equip ourselves so that we don't shortchange the society we are supposed to be teaching. That is why prominent Western warrior scholars such as Donn Draeger, Robert Smith, Dr. Mark V. Wiley, Krishna Gohania, etc. were not hesitant to pursue the nuisances of the arts they practiced and taught. that i agree with. well said. Now, lets look at what i have learnt. The term kali didn't necessarily eminate from the US group as some accusations have been made - flying in the face of Steve Van Harns post about his own experience. it was not Placido Yambao, but his editor, Buenaventura Mirafuente, who wrote that kali was the original name of arnis at the time the Spaniards came. Mirafuente did the research on the history of arnis and wrote it many years prior to the book's publication in 1957. So it was an old manuscript they had which was written long before the book came into being- i've read 30 years but cannot find the link to back that up. So we can now accept that the term Kali first came from Filipinos who were based in the Phillipines. I cant tell you anything of Mirafuente's history. I would be interested in hearing it. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 9 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Arnis-fication To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:35:20 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > owned by Sensei John Segars 4rth degree Blackbelt in Shorin Ryu Karate. > A very well organized US Karate Organization Found by GM Trias. He took > me as a white belt, and every class there is a 15 minutes sparring, ... Master Robert Trias was one of the very early karate people in the US. The problem was he never really studied karate very long (maybe 2 yrs) before moving back to the US and opening up a dojo in Arizona. He was, however, a pretty fair boxer in his younger days... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest