Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:58:32 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #190 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Inosanto Blend (Gordon Walker) 2. Re: Kali (iPat) 3. Re: Gwai Lows screw up again (iPat) 4. Re: Mirafuerte and GM Trias (iPat) 5. Re: Karate & Arnis (iPat) 6. Kali-balik tayo(Brother's let go back) Kalinga? (gatpuno@aol.com) 7. Re: The Kamote-Okinawate-Karate-FMA connection (bgdebuque) 8. Re: Mysterious Circle (Afern27@aol.com) 9. GO home and Plant Kamote! (Alex Ercia) 10. Re: Inosanto Blend (iPat) 11. List down or slow (Ray) 12. Re: GO home and Plant Kamote! (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 23:57:34 -0600 From: "Gordon Walker" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Inosanto Blend Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hi, I have been curious about this in the past and have trained with Stephan Kesting, who is an Inosanto certified instructor, but didn't really pursue the question. What is the Inosanto Blend of Filipino martial arts? I remember Stephan said it was an amalgamation of things he learned from Guro Lacoste, Pekiti Tirsia, and Lameco. I know there is a lot of similarities in the technical aspects of the arts, such as ranges, triangular footwork, power generation, stick locks, etc etc. Im just wondering if some Inosanto trained people could specify developmental drills or class structure for this art. I might be training with a guy in the near future who is trained in the art and don't want to be totally in the dark, when it comes to communication. Regards, Gordon --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:01:32 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net the editor...the excommunicated priest...an ancient manuscript.. sounds like cleudo On 6/12/07, Felipe Jocano wrote: > Ah...What goes through my mind is what is Manong Rey's > basis for that statement about the older manuscript > upon which Mirafuente based his chapter.... > > Bot > > (Wooshoo! *sniff*) ;-> -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:06:22 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Gwai Lows screw up again Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net no i didnt write that - its a myth it was someones reply to my post....honest guv sniff On 6/11/07, Felipe Jocano wrote: > Hi Pat (again!) > > Lessee...Wooshoo can be a sneeze (wooshoo! *sniff* > ); or it could be the sound of > something flying past your ear (*wooshoo!* "What the > (deleted) was that!!!!") > > Wuzu could be a question as to your actions (wuzu > doin' [suspicious glare]) or it could be a greeting > (hey man, wuzu-p?) > > With my tongue in my cheek and a wink in my eye ;-) -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 11:14:12 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Mirafuerte and GM Trias Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net many posts with some points maybe lost in translation! There was one that said "You nailed it, we dont know anyhting about this, since Dan Inosanto ." But now you say it was 1902 the claim was that pre spanish terminology refferred to the art as Kali. As we are often inundated by posters that say the US is guilty of generating the term - hey im happy to blame the US too! - its clear that this is not the case. The fact that most manuscripts were destroyed by the Spanish, many manuscripts in other cultures were saved by the churches - something discussed earlier in the thread. The question i have to ask is why such a patriot would want to initiate a myth that has others calling him a liar? The fact that men are quick to dispel the claims of a man who fought on the front line for his country's freedom makes me curious. Why would he 'make up ' such a claim? As a priest he would be able to gain access to manuscripts that many outside the church may not get to see - but apparently he made it all up! of course, as he was excommunicated he would have a bug bear with the spanish so maybe was keen to dispel the spanish terminology that many cling too. Maybe he made it up? But, what is the insult that the term Kali was the ancient word for the FMA? For years on the list we have been told it was because it was an american generated term and many of us sympathised with the claims that the term could be an 'insult'. However, the more we look into it we are able to see that it was a term that generated in the Phillipinnes and had a valid translation for the pre spanish era - a claim made by scholars in the Phillipinnes. On 6/11/07, gatpuno@aol.com wrote: > Pat Davis, > > Yes, off-course we knows and it been said that "Kali" was claimed first > by Filipino recorded in Yambao's Book. I will repeat them again, The > first one who call this term is "Father Greogrio Aglipay" the first > Filipino Protestant Priest, founded the Iglesia Filipina Indipediente > (Philiipines Independent Church). He was said that on 1610 "Kali" is > the first name of Filipino Matial Arts. But the claimed is "bias", is > like a"Myth" instead of reality. Since there are no evidence of the > word to be called as the FMA. > > Also we want just to make it clear, that everything you see and read is > true. We also try to stop is the claimed to be the first name of theart > arts and the mother arts, the purer, such a claimed that make Arnis and > other FMA second or came from it.. > > Maybe you have to go back to the old post and re-read what you read, it > was said many times. > -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 11:32:51 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Karate & Arnis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Why didnt Lidell take Rampage to the ground then? Because hes predominatly a striker. When i see some fighters in teh UFC i cant belive that they are not more well rounded! I like the sherk's or Hughes type fighters that can work in any area but then Sherk will have exposure to the FMA's through his instructors. On 6/9/07, bgdebuque wrote: > The best parallel would be the evolution of the UFC. In the early days, it > is still easy to distinguish which fighter came from which style. Nowadays, > everybody seem to fight the same way. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 6 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:00:06 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Kali-balik tayo(Brother's let go back) Kalinga? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Kalinga? How about it? Is that make "Kali" the martial arts term? Are you sure? Youre not are you? If we going to link all of this words, I will tell you more word like this "Kaliraya" in Laguna, that make it it "Kali" the verb name, Kalibo of Aclan in Visaya, that make "Kali" is verb of this wow, nice try, but "NO" is not. I will tell you more words, "Kalinangan", this word is mean Knowledge, but the root word is not "Kali" the root word is "Linang" mean know. Kalimutan, means forget, the root word is not "Kali" again the root word is "limot" forget, "Kalinawan" Clear, root word "linaw?" clear? Kalipi, (same race), Kalinisan (cleanliness), Kalituhan (mix-up), Kalingkingan (pinky), Kalibawan (eliterate), Kaliwa(left), Kaliwete(Lefty), Ka is always as the second person, sometimes is used as word for respect, alwasy place in the biginning of the name whom you are talking about. Like Ka-Lino, Ka-Linda, Ka-Licio, Ka-Lily, Ka-Lilibeth, do I need to more? This not prove anything about he word okay, so stay on digging Sweet Yam, "Kali Kamote". Kalinga in our Tagalog language is means to care. Is like one caring mother (Tulad ng isang Inang mapag-Kalinga). Kasama mo sa Kali-nangan (With you in Learning), Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com How about KALInga? (bgdebuque) Don't forget folks that the Philippines has a province in Northern Luzon called "KALINGA". The inhabitants of which are also referred to as "KALINGA". Here's what Wikipedia says on the origins of "Kalinga": "It is said that in the Ibanag and Gaddang languages, Kalinga comes from the common noun "kalinga" which means "enemy", "fighter", or "headhunter". The inhabitants of Cagayan and Isabela considered the Kalinga as enemies since they conducted headhunting attacks on Ibanag and Gaddang territories." If "Kalinga" is the noun, what is the verb? "Kali"? And what would "Kali" mean? To fight? To hunt heads? I hope there's somebody out there who is fluent in Ibanag or Gaddang who can shed light on this... ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 12:35:44 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Kamote-Okinawate-Karate-FMA connection Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It seems that you have inadvertently discovered the hidden link in all Far Eastern MAs. KamoTE farmers developed Okinawa-TE. Okinawa-TE migrated to Japan and became KaraTE. In the FMA "Hall of Fame", on the other hand, the following family names would be definite shoo-ins: 1. MirafuenTE 2. CaneTE 3. SuliTE =[:->] > Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 18:02:56 -0700 (PDT) > From: Felipe Jocano > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] After Kamote comes Kali (again???) part 2 > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Hey Alex, bgdebuque: > > I just remembered (since one of the threads is about > karate and arnis) that some of Okinawa's greatest > karate masters were also sweet potato farmers. So you > have a connection between kali, karate and kamote ;-) > Can we suggest that kamote be the symbolic thread that > links karate and kali? :-) --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Afern27@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:25:06 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Mysterious Circle Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The extent of Spanish influence on the FMAs is always an intriguing subject, but I'm not sure the Mysterious Circle was much of an influence. That style seems to have been designed for rapier use and is predominantly thrust-oriented with very few if any cuts. While most FMAs I've seen appear to be lean more heavily towards cuts/strikes than they do to thrusting moves. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Alex Ercia" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:01:02 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] GO home and Plant Kamote! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Kuya Bot! I knew you and someone else would love my comment on this topic. But I also know the reason why we have this discussion. I was just making everything a bit humorous. Because as all warriors we are getting impatient. Nandyan yung init ng ulo(There is the Hot tempered/Hot headed). NO offense you know. Like I quoted Sir Sioc about how he believed that it is all in evolution or generation's preference all names are good. Kali might not be ours we might have borrowed the name. One thing we all have to realize Filipinos and non-filipinos who are in the FMA is that we in the PHilippines based on history have a mixture of Cultures. We have adopted so many cultures, people, foods, words,etc. Because we can absorb anything. Assimilate among different raises at all ease. But still be filipino. Here's words like susi(key) is chinese and Espada(sword) is spanish. But we have our own dialiects too. Kali might have been borrowed by us as a name. Does it really matter if it is ours. NO I beg to differ.What matters is that like one of our members in ED said. Its name has helped expose what we now know as FMA. We don't have to argue about that. The old folk had adopted it becuase of its popularity in the US. I remember when I was learning from Tatang in Luneta. I would ask him why they called his style Kali ILustrisimo. He would say there are many names to my system. Olilustrisimo, Kalis ILustrisimo, Kali Ilustrisimo, ILustrisimo arnis o Eskrima. I asked since he grew up as a prince in Jolo if there is really the use or origins of the word Kali? He said he never heard of such word. We might not be able to solve this one. Why because from history lessons they said the priests burned all our documents to force us to learn their language and ways. How true this might be. Who can say. Kuya Bot! I did not know there was as song on Planting kamote. hahaha. So Bata pa siguro ako. hahaha(So I'm not that old) Hey guys, The band that was mentioned was into singing filipino folk songs. Back to the topic. I am just happy that FMA is exposed the way it is. Back when I was learning in the Philippines. FMA was taught in seperate or secret locations. Because the others might steal their secrets. But now we are on Youtube, Google, and Instructional videos. More power! Over and out! Alex Ercia(See even Ercia I believe does not sound like it is Pinoy. We all know Alex isn't either. But I am full blooded Pinoy. And proud of it. If you cannot get this go home and plant kamote!!!O pupukpokin ko ulo mo hahaha!(or I will hit you in the head) _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now. It’s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07 --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:05:56 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Inosanto Blend Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net my understanding - i may be wrong - is that the term eminated from Rick faye - at least i think i saw it first on one of his schools tee shirts. I cant recall who it was i asked at the time (maybe 10 years ago) but the understanding i had was the term was generated by his students to bring more recognition to his 'style'. On a lot of material you see Lacoste - Inosanto Kali as Guro I would always place someone elses name in front of his. The Inosanto tag on his school is not for him but for his father as an example. When you witness a technique you may see it shown in a variety of methods as once Guro shows it with one teachers influence he'll show it from all the others as he would not want to show disfavour to any of his teachers. But direct students soon see the preferences he has and if you were to break down where each part came from the session would be all note taking with no practice. To all intensive purposes Inosanto blend captures all and also promotes this humble mans material to the forefront. I have never heard him mention the term On 6/12/07, Gordon Walker wrote: > hi, > I have been curious about this in the past and have trained with Stephan > Kesting, who is an Inosanto certified instructor, but didn't really pursue > the question. > What is the Inosanto Blend of Filipino martial arts? I remember Stephan said > it was an amalgamation of things he learned from Guro Lacoste, Pekiti > Tirsia, and Lameco. > I know there is a lot of similarities in the technical aspects of the arts, > such as ranges, triangular footwork, power generation, stick locks, etc etc. > Im just wondering if some Inosanto trained people could specify > developmental drills or class structure for this art. > I might be training with a guy in the near future who is trained in the art > and don't want to be totally in the dark, when it comes to communication. > Regards, > Gordon -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 11 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:39:40 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] List down or slow Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Fyi, the list will be down or slow for the next three days as I'll be out of town to attend a funeral. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:02:18 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] GO home and Plant Kamote! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To all hot-headed and patriotic pinoys and friends of the Philippines-- Lest we forget--Happy Independence Day. Mabuhay ang Pilipinas at ang Arnis! Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com Alex Ercia wrote: Hi Kuya Bot! I knew you and someone else would love my comment on this topic. But I also know the reason why we have this discussion. I was just making everything a bit humorous. Because as all warriors we are getting impatient. Over and out! Alex Ercia(See even Ercia I believe does not sound like it is Pinoy. We all know Alex isn't either. But I am full blooded Pinoy. And proud of it. If you cannot get this go home and plant kamote!!!O pupukpokin ko ulo mo hahaha!(or I will hit you in the head) _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now. It’s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07 _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest