Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 02:58:31 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #191 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: The Kamote-Okinawate-Karate-FMA connection (Felipe Jocano) 2. Re: Re: Kali Attn. James (james jr. sy) 3. Gat Puno Abon Garimot Baet’s Wisdom: Survival (james jr. sy) 4. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet’s Wisdom: Universality of Movement (james jr. sy) 5. Re: Kali (ken jo) 6. re: Inosanto Blend (Martial Way) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 00:17:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Kamote-Okinawate-Karate-FMA connection To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net LOL :-) Bot --- bgdebuque wrote: > It seems that you have inadvertently discovered the > hidden link in all Far > Eastern MAs. > > KamoTE farmers developed Okinawa-TE. > > Okinawa-TE migrated to Japan and became KaraTE. > > In the FMA "Hall of Fame", on the other hand, the > following family > names would be definite shoo-ins: > > 1. MirafuenTE > 2. CaneTE > 3. SuliTE > > =[:->] > > > > > Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 18:02:56 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Felipe Jocano > > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] After Kamote comes Kali > (again???) part 2 > > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > > > Hey Alex, bgdebuque: > > > > I just remembered (since one of the threads is > about > > karate and arnis) that some of Okinawa's greatest > > karate masters were also sweet potato farmers. So > you > > have a connection between kali, karate and kamote > ;-) > > Can we suggest that kamote be the symbolic thread > that > > links karate and kali? :-) > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 04:18:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Kali Attn. James To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hua koha, it’s a very sad fact that it has come down to that Bo. GM Aguilar is a teacher of mine. We’ve talked about it, but just in passing. The old man was kinda upset about the whole thing. In fact, he didn’t met with us for about 2 weeks. He might be contemplating on the eventuality of what happened. Please give me time to verify it. I’ll have to visit him and it won’t be a pleasure trip. I believe one needs to cross two rivers before one can get there. But will try. While I’m on the task, we might as well as EDers what they think about the whole episode. James Bo Kaner wrote: James, have a good day! this is in reference to what i posted re: foreigners videoing our local masters and telling them to call it Kali. >From what I gathered, they (foreigners with filipino collaborators) waited for Mr. Jose Aguilar, the local oido grandmaster after the old man attended a mass. The old man did not recognize Leo G. but recognized Jeff M. who wanted the old man to demonstrate his art. They were with two foreigners I believed americans who SECRETLY took videos of the old man. Now this is what we locally call "Pangawat" without the permission of the old man. Not satisfied with their deed, Jeff M. instructed the old man to call his art KALI. In which the old man retorted that, "Ano, Kali kamote". Kindly translate this na lang. I dont know if what the old man did really uttered those words. This is disrespect to our indgenous Negrense art. Kindly try to verify this. This is the same thing that happend during the Japanese occupation wherein the collaborators turned in their filipino guerillas to the Japanese. Your fellow negrense. Bo --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 04:24:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Gat Puno Abon Garimot Baet’s Wisdom: Survival Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net We can often have an idea and impression of a man’s experience and wisdom thru his words and actions. In GP Baet’s case, I agree to his statement that survival is the very essence of martial arts. There’s a story in our province, Negros Occidental, about a young Arnisador who studied diligently under his aging master. When time came that his teacher had given him everything, he started to become big headed. Then one day, he challenged his teacher to a “to the death” duel so that he can prove that he was the best. The junior students of the master tried to convince him not to fight. He was frail and old and the young Arnisador knew all his techniques. He didn’t stand a chance. Nevertheless, the old teacher told his student to met him at the river bank the following morning and to bring his bolo. The following morning the two met at the riverbank. “Where is your bolo,” the student asked, seeing that his teacher was holding nothing. “I’m sorry. I forgot. I’m so old. You see those kawayans (bamboo) over there? Kindly cut one for me. That will be my weapon,” said the old man. “What? You’ll use a bamboo against my bolo? Hahaha you must be crazy,” the student replied. The student went on as requested. He used a diagonal forehand slash to cut the bamboo, leaving one end pointed. Then the young Arnisador handed it to the old master. Without warning, the old master stabbed him in the stomach. Surprised, the young Arnisador had not offered any form of defense. Before he passed away, the young Arnisador overheard his teacher say, “I may have taught you all my techniques but what I haven’t taught you is how to survive in the face of overwhelming odds.” In a real fight, it’s not about winning but surviving; it’s not about art but controlling, maiming, or killing. These kinds of things do happen in the mountainous areas of the Philippines. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 04:28:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet’s Wisdom: Universality of Movement Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Again I agree with Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet that Arnis/Eskrima is the same as the other Asian and Western Martial Arts. As long as we fight against another human being it would be the same. Circumstances and factors would definitely vary from encounter to encounter, from style/system to style/system but some variables will always be universal. How many ways can a human wrist be folded with a jointlocking application? Two, palm up and palm down. The palm up variety is often seen in the yubi dori (finger hold). There are several varieties of the palm down jointlock which includes but not limited to: 1. Kote gaeshi (wrist reversal) or inside wrist lock, 2. Nikkyo/nikkajo (second form) or outside wrist lock, 3. Shiho nage (4 corner throw) or figure 4 armlock, 4. Goose neck wrist lock 5. Goose neck hammerlock These wristlocks, in various executions and applications, are found in Arnis/Escrima, Aikido, Jujutsu, Combat Judo, Chin Na, Kajukenbo, and many other arts. Of course what makes each interpretation unique is the way each system does the technique. Kote gaeshi, for example, can be done with a push forward-towards-the-opponent’s-shoulder pressure (Aikikai Aikido), a pull away-from-the-opponent pressure (Kajukenbo), push 45 degrees pressure (Jujutsu), or push 45 degrees pressure with simultaneous live forearm disarm and continued hit (Lapu-Lapu Viñas Arnis). James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:56:27 -0700 (PDT) From: ken jo To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net james jr. sy wrote [in Eskrima Digest Vol.14#169]: “..Florante at Laura by Francisco Balagtas - 1831 - First record of Arnis. Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis by Placido Yambao - 1957 - First record of Kali.." -- thank you for the input james.. Florante at Laura was actually published in 1838 upon the release of Francisco Baltazar from prison.. – that aside, I think I need to reiterate my question to the body again.. and perhaps this time, perhaps somebody out there can help me out with my inquiry.. I would like to know if anybody has information as to which organization/system/style Mr. Yambao and Mr. Mirafuente belonged to or were practicing at that time that they agreed to acknowledge the terminology "KALI" in the book "Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis" which was published in 1957? -- matagal ko na po sanang gustong itanong ito noon pa.. ano po ba ang grupo/sistema/istilo ni manong mirafuente at manong yambao noong panahong yun at pumayag sila na bigyan pansin ang terminolohiyang "KALI" sa panahong 1957? -- dugay na unta nako ni gusto ipangutana, unsa diay ang grupo/sistema/istilo nila noy mirafuente ug noy yambao ngadtong panahona nato nga nisugot man sila na gamitun ang "KALI" niadtong 1957? daghang salamat.. PS: I am looking for this particular information because this would indicate which organization(s)/system(s)/style(s) were in possession of knowledge about KALI the term of an indigenous Martial Arts of our land at that time.. perhaps this group is still existing and is an actual living repository of extensive knowledge re: our native fighting arts/martial culture long before 16 March 1521 when the expedition of Portuguese explorer Ferdinand Magellan sighted the island of Samar - where he was welcomed by Raja Kolambu and Raja Siagu, and where he named the islands the Archipelago de San Lazaro (the islands of Saint Lazarus).. [-- as to where Mr. Mirafuente got his info – that would be the subject of debates - but it would seem logical to assume that the use of that word has been in existence long before the publishing of the book -as the draft document, i heard, was 20-30 years in the making - we can only surmise that the word KALI was in existence at least in the 1900s or a minimum of 100++ years.. but if we are to be strict, legalistic, and technical about it, then the published word KALI is at least 50 years old this year --] -- and very big thanks to Manong Abon "Garimot" Baet for pointing out [in Eskrima Digest Vol.19#171] that Mr. Mirafuente actually cited the founder of Iglesia Filipina Independiente (Philippine Independent Church), Fr. Gregorio Aglipay [8 May 1860 – 1 September 1940], as Mr. Mirafuente’s source for the word KALI – [i wonder what the connection was between Mr. Mirafuente, Mr. Yambao and Fr. Aglipay?] -- I maybe wrong, but from what I gathered from the information that Manong Baet shared with the group - Mr. Yambao quoted Fr. Aglipay as giving the following timeline for the evolution of terms for the Filipino Martial Arts that we know today: from #### B.C. [?] to 1610 : Kali from 1610 to 1860 : "Pananandata" in Tagalog, "Pagkalikali" in Cagayan by the Ibanags, "Kalirongan" in Pangasinan, "Kaliradman" in Visaya, and; "Pagaradman" in Ilongo 1853 (sic) / [1838] : Arnis [as specified by Balagtas in Florante at Laura] from 1860 to 1872 : "Didya" in Ilocos, "Kabaroan" -- anyway, thanks a lot for all of the inputs guys.. appreciate it big time.. hope somebody out there can trace the specific kali-eskrima-arnis organization/system/style of Mr. Yambao and Mr. Mirafuente and perhaps Fr. Aglipay himself?.. Mabuhay ang Pilipinas! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Martial Way" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:26:54 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] re: Inosanto Blend Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Gordon, Everything I have heard and been told is the same as what IPat mentioned. The Title of the system pays respect to both Lacoste and Guro Inosanto's Father. Plus often when you take on or over a system, you place your teacher's name first and yours second. >From what I have learned from Guro Inosanto as well as Guro Balicki is that the Inosanto Blend shows many influences. Of those these are the one's that I have been shown and listed. Many are similar but also different. Methods (Styles/Systems of Training) 1. Abecedario style 2. Doublecado style 3. Trisello or Crosses style 4. Redondo style 5. Disalon style 6. Herada Bantanqueno style 7. Abanico style 8. Etalanio style 9. Largada Pesada style 10. Sumkeate style 11. Precia Punialada style 12. Rompipan Cempiapa Etalonia style 13. Abierta style 14. Serada style 15. Dos Manos style 16. Fondo Puerta style 17. Reterida style 18. Lastico style 19. Toledo style 20. Bergonia style 21. Magalaya style 22. Toledo-Collado style 23. Doce Pares style 24. Bohol style 25. Moro style (many types Muslim styles) 26. Tagalog style 27. Pampango style 28. Illongo style 29. Taosug style or Sulu style 30. Cebuano style 31. Waray style 32. Ilocano style 33. Pangasinan style 34. Samar style 35. Mountain style (Norther type) 36. Largo Mano style 37. Derobio style 38. Repeticion style 39. Numerado style 40. Literada style 41. Cabisedario style 42. Sumbrada style 43. Villabrille system (composite of styles) 44. Lameco Guro Inosanto still continues to train and always put on a white belt so therefore there has been I think more added in the last few years but this is a really good list or base to pull from. Many will be similar but as IPat said, Guro Inosanto pulls from all of them and pays complete respect to all of his teachers and their arts. I hope this helps some. Cya sweatin, Guro Larry St. Clair The New & Improved Martial Way Academy www.martialway.net 821-3637 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest