Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 05:40:13 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #194 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Church Manuscripts & Yambao's Book (Red Gonzales) 2. Won't Explain & Kalisin (Red Gonzales) 3. Re: An Ilonggo barrio named "Kali" (Red Gonzales) 4. Re: Correction Gen Emilio Jacinto and Kali (Red Gonzales) 5. Re: Re: Kali (Red Gonzales) 6. Re: Re: Kali Attn. James (Red Gonzales) 7. Bastoneros (james jr. sy) 8. Re: James Sy Jr. & Kali (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #168 - 7 msgs) (james jr. sy) 9. Number of dialects (james jr. sy) 10. Kali (james jr. sy) 11. Re: Kali - Going Back to the Baginning (james jr. sy) 12. Re: Salakab/tungya (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #184 - 13 msgs) (james jr. sy) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:29:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Red Gonzales To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Church Manuscripts & Yambao's Book Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Pat my friend, You are right I am entitled to my own opinion, I just don't feel comfortable with how you put things across. And I don't see any humor there. Might just be me. Based from your reply, I would surmise that 1. You just become aware of these "church manuscripts" through the thread that's why you can not give what specific manuscripts are these. If you intimately know these documents, you can easily answer the question. 2. You haven't read Yambao's book since you avoided my question. Of course, it has a lot of bearing whether you have read the book or not. Exactly my point. If you have no intimate knowledge of these church manuscripts and have not read Yambao's book, what gives you the confidence to give these as legitimate proofs for the use of the word Kali? When you go to court, you don't present an evidence haphazardly or else your credibility becomes questioned. You just don't use them as evidences least you yourself will be trapped by your own assertions. We all know the book is far from perfect, that's if you know what I mean. My suggestion is, if you intend to use Yambao's book as evidence, give appropriate time to study the book. You'll learn many things that you have not realized before. If you don't know Tagalog, by which the book was originally published, your best bet would be an Englsish translation. Now, there is no excuse of knowing the book cover to cover if you believe that it is the real source of the term you are using now, especially if you are teaching martial arts from the Philippines. You see the scholars in the Philippines themselves have studied the book and that's why they can point the flaws and the inconsistencies with the kali that's used in the west. With that said Mr. Davies I hope you can give more concrete/solid evidences for the use of the term. What has been posted here just doesn't just add up to something logical. Will excitedly await your reply. Salamat po. Red Gonzales --------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://ph.mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:33:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Red Gonzales To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Won't Explain & Kalisin Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net GM Mat, I was reading through the old posts and I want to make some comments. 1. I came across an exchange between you and Gatdula. I think Gatdula has a point. The masters who use Kali know and can explain the truth of the kali word but they won’t explain in public because it will affect their public image and the reputation they had built for themselves. 2. You have traced the Tagalog word kalisin to come from Kali and went further to explain that kalisin refers to scraping layers of defenses of the enemy so he can get to the enemy's body. Since my childhood I was exposed to agriculture and farmlands because my family owns a hacienda here in Negros. Here we use the term kalisun, which is the equivalent of the Tagalog kalisin. And our hacienda have a good number of Eskrimadores. But all thru those years, the definition we had with kalisun is related to farming. Kalisun "to scrape" is applied when you already need to "level off" your gantangan because it is already more than full. This is the same definition wherever you go in the Visayas, albeit the term may sometimes vary depending on the specific location. It was the first time I came across your definition of kalisin as related to fighting. I’m interested to know if that definition is your own interpretation of the word or it has grounding in actual usage and the culture of the Filipino fighting arts. Thank you in advance for whatever enlightment you can share with me. Red Gonzales --------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://ph.mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:39:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Red Gonzales Subject: Re: [Eskrima] An Ilonggo barrio named "Kali" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bgdebuque, Are you suggesting that this is the link to the lost evidence of Kali the Mother Art? So what's the etymology of the name of said barrior? Yah, better tell the supreme grandmaster. Red Gonzales bgdebuque wrote: Well, somebody should inform Tuhon Gaje that there is a Barrio in Dumangas, Iloilo named "Kali". Dumangas is probably one of the oldest Malay settlements in Panay, as well as probably the 2nd oldest Spanish settlement in the Philippines (Cebu is the oldest). It is supposedly also the site of the 1st Catholic church in Panay (courtesy of the Agustinian Fathers). Interestingly, it is also probably one of the few towns in the Philippines where the majority of the inhabitants converted to the Philippine Independent Church of Father Aglipay during the heyday of the First Philippne Republic. Message: 10 > Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:14:10 -0700 (PDT) > From: Red Gonzales > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kalibo, Kalinog, Kalinga Apayao - What the Kali > Are You Talking About? > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Bgdebuque my friend, > > It’s a very good thing that you mentioned Kalinga for it will make our > discussion on Kali more interesting. > > Both of us are Ilonggos and needless to say we both know the Supreme > Grandmaster of Kali. For those who still don’t know, it was Gaje who > pioneered the connection of Kali the purest Mother Filipino Martial Art to > the names of Filipino places which included Kalibo, Calinog, and Kalinga > Apayao. > > It was Gaje who said that the name of the municipality of Kalibo meant > “a gathering of Kali men† and that it is there that one can find a Kali > tribe. Hahaha is all Aklanons could comment. For those who are not > familiar with the etymology of Kalibo, it was derived from the root word > Libo “thousand.† The prefix ka was added to it to have the town > name. For the non-believers, I suggest a trip to Kalibo, it’s a beautiful > place, and while there visit their municipal hall for the naked truth. > > And BTW, don’t mind asking if they have a Kali tribe there. You > wouldn’t want to be embarrassed. The different tribes in the Philippines > had already been mapped out. > > Calinog, which is conveniently respelt Kalinog to look more similar to the > Inang Arte (Mother Art), by the same token is composed of the prefix ka and > the root word linog “earthquake.† Wow, how did the Black Mother found > her way into Kalinog in Panay? Biskan imo utok malinog (even your head will > quake.) > > I’ll have to leave the Kalinga Apayao to the ethnic groups living > there. Maybe they might have the Kali tribe there. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://ph.mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:49:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Red Gonzales Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Correction Gen Emilio Jacinto and Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello GP Abon, The old generation Eskrimadores here can attest to that fact. The only thing is visiting foreigners don't get to met these old men who can tell them the truth because the visitors are "quarantined." You are right, GT Gaje is one of those who had made a large impact in the propagation of FMA abroad. However, together with success comes some unacceptable practices. It might not be a good idea to talk to him about that but on second thought it's better to hear it from the horse's mouth. You will find GT Gaje to be very eloquent and good in explaining things. Listen to what he says and please compare it to what you know. Your gut feel will tell you what is really is. Salamat po. Red Gonzales GatPuno@aol.com wrote: Hello, Red Gonzales, Thank you for sharing the GT Tuhon Gaje are the one who claim the the "Mother and the Purest", He will be here this next weekend, and i was invited to meet him and have dinner with him. Its is my honor to meet the one of the most influencial GMA in FMA. While I am there, I will asked him about that, and see what he said about it. In regards of my my last post, I jus twant to correct the name of General Emilo Jacinto of Magdalena, Laguna. the original post is down below. I intent to not change the "mistake".... Gen. Emnilio Aguinaldo is the First President of the Philippines and he is from Kawit, Cavite.. > The the Doce Pares of Luzon is not a system at all in the beginning, it > is an organization developed during the rule of Spain. It was late > 1800's when the Doce Pares of Laguna become the system, based on "Doce > Strata of Cinco Teros. I am also found that the Cinco Teros is the most > practiced art from the old days up to this days. Siete Pares Arnis > (Stand for the Seven Provinces Style of Arnis) was born during the Peak > of KKK (katipunan Revolution) which is taught to the Katipunero by the > group of General Emilio Aguinaldo which native of Magdalena, Laguna. > The "Laban Tulisan Arnis" was born on the 1940's created by the > HUKBALAHAP. Mainly practiced in Laguna Hukbalahap, which my Uncle > Leocadio Baet as "Kumader Sabo" ng Laguna was the head of his > Laguna/Quezon Hukbalahap Groups. > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://ph.mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:52:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Red Gonzales Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ken my friend, Yambao was co-founder and president at one point of the Kapisanang Dunong at Lakas. Red Gonzales ken jo wrote: james jr. sy wrote [in Eskrima Digest Vol.14#169]: “..Florante at Laura by Francisco Balagtas - 1831 - First record of Arnis. Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis by Placido Yambao - 1957 - First record of Kali.." -- thank you for the input james.. Florante at Laura was actually published in 1838 upon the release of Francisco Baltazar from prison.. – that aside, I think I need to reiterate my question to the body again.. and perhaps this time, perhaps somebody out there can help me out with my inquiry.. I would like to know if anybody has information as to which organization/system/style Mr. Yambao and Mr. Mirafuente belonged to or were practicing at that time that they agreed to acknowledge the terminology "KALI" in the book "Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis" which was published in 1957? -- matagal ko na po sanang gustong itanong ito noon pa.. ano po ba ang grupo/sistema/istilo ni manong mirafuente at manong yambao noong panahong yun at pumayag sila na bigyan pansin ang terminolohiyang "KALI" sa panahong 1957? -- dugay na unta nako ni gusto ipangutana, unsa diay ang grupo/sistema/istilo nila noy mirafuente ug noy yambao ngadtong panahona nato nga nisugot man sila na gamitun ang "KALI" niadtong 1957? daghang salamat.. PS: I am looking for this particular information because this would indicate which organization(s)/system(s)/style(s) were in possession of knowledge about KALI the term of an indigenous Martial Arts of our land at that time.. perhaps this group is still existing and is an actual living repository of extensive knowledge re: our native fighting arts/martial culture long before 16 March 1521 when the expedition of Portuguese explorer Ferdinand Magellan sighted the island of Samar - where he was welcomed by Raja Kolambu and Raja Siagu, and where he named the islands the Archipelago de San Lazaro (the islands of Saint Lazarus).. [-- as to where Mr. Mirafuente got his info – that would be the subject of debates - but it would seem logical to assume that the use of that word has been in existence long before the publishing of the book -as the draft document, i heard, was 20-30 years in the making - we can only surmise that the word KALI was in existence at least in the 1900s or a minimum of 100++ years.. but if we are to be strict, legalistic, and technical about it, then the published word KALI is at least 50 years old this year --] -- and very big thanks to Manong Abon "Garimot" Baet for pointing out [in Eskrima Digest Vol.19#171] that Mr. Mirafuente actually cited the founder of Iglesia Filipina Independiente (Philippine Independent Church), Fr. Gregorio Aglipay [8 May 1860 – 1 September 1940], as Mr. Mirafuente’s source for the word KALI – [i wonder what the connection was between Mr. Mirafuente, Mr. Yambao and Fr. Aglipay?] -- I maybe wrong, but from what I gathered from the information that Manong Baet shared with the group - Mr. Yambao quoted Fr. Aglipay as giving the following timeline for the evolution of terms for the Filipino Martial Arts that we know today: from #### B.C. [?] to 1610 : Kali from 1610 to 1860 : "Pananandata" in Tagalog, "Pagkalikali" in Cagayan by the Ibanags, "Kalirongan" in Pangasinan, "Kaliradman" in Visaya, and; "Pagaradman" in Ilongo 1853 (sic) / [1838] : Arnis [as specified by Balagtas in Florante at Laura] from 1860 to 1872 : "Didya" in Ilocos, "Kabaroan" -- anyway, thanks a lot for all of the inputs guys.. appreciate it big time.. hope somebody out there can trace the specific kali-eskrima-arnis organization/system/style of Mr. Yambao and Mr. Mirafuente and perhaps Fr. Aglipay himself?.. Mabuhay ang Pilipinas! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://ph.mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 01:35:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Red Gonzales Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Kali Attn. James To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bo my friend, If you are not still aware of it, this kind of pangawat modus operandi that takes advantage of the local Arnis grandmasters for the gain of Kali has been going on as early as the late 1970s and the early 1980s. There was a move to rewrite FMA history by "persuading" grandmasters to use "Kali" instead of the Spanish stick based Arnis/Eskrima. Problem was most won't buy it. Many foreigners had visited Negros but only a few of them get to met the majority of the elder Arnisadores because the visitors were always "quarantined." Hmmm...good plot. Using Arnis GMs to popularize Kali. Reminds me of Jigoro Kano using Shiro Saigo of Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu to fight the old Jujitsu ryu-ha and proclaim the dominance of Kodokan Judo. Much in the same way the spaniards one Filipino ethnic group to fight against another Filipino ethnic group. Red Gonzales Bo Kaner wrote: James, have a good day! this is in reference to what i posted re: foreigners videoing our local masters and telling them to call it Kali. >From what I gathered, they (foreigners with filipino collaborators) waited for Mr. Jose Aguilar, the local oido grandmaster after the old man attended a mass. The old man did not recognize Leo G. but recognized Jeff M. who wanted the old man to demonstrate his art. They were with two foreigners I believed americans who SECRETLY took videos of the old man. Now this is what we locally call "Pangawat" without the permission of the old man. Not satisfied with their deed, Jeff M. instructed the old man to call his art KALI. In which the old man retorted that, "Ano, Kali kamote". Kindly translate this na lang. I dont know if what the old man did really uttered those words. This is disrespect to our indgenous Negrense art. Kindly try to verify this. This is the same thing that happend during the Japanese occupation wherein the collaborators turned in their filipino guerillas to the Japanese. Your fellow negrense. Bo --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://ph.mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://ph.mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 03:00:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Bastoneros Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A hypothesis I can offer for such use of the word bastonero by the Tagalogs is that in the past many of those in the service and also the offenders are into baston, as necessitated by the environment during those times. In the prisohan (jail), those with pangamut (hand skills) reign. Good examples from Negros would be Grandmasters Casimiro A. Grandeza (Bacolod), Ibarra Lopez (Bacolod), and Estanislao T. Guarra (Bago) who had served in the Integrated National Police (INP)/Philippine National Police (PNP). Others who had served as security guards include Grandmasters Benefredo M. Lobrido, Felix A. Guinabo, and the Tanique brothers. Since Manila is the capital of the Philippines, it is an employment haven for those from the provinces. Many bastoneros found their way to Manila in search of work, some of them landing a job in Jail Management and Penology. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Felipe Jocano wrote: Ilonggo gid! My father is Ilonggo (for our nonPinoy borthers, he's from Iloilo, a province in the Visayas) and yes in his part of the country, arnisadores were also called bastoneros. I find it interesting that in Tagalog, a bastonero is either the prison mayor (big boss in jail) or the warden or the warden's enforcer...A pity I don't speak much Ilonggo, since I grew up in Manila... Bot --- bgdebuque wrote: > Hi Gat Abon! > > Don't forget our small corner of the Philippines > where stickfighters are > originally called "Bastoneros".... =[:->] > ____________________________________________________________________________________Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 03:05:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] James Sy Jr. & Kali (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #168 - 7 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Than you for the compliment on the arguments good sir. It was indeed a wise choice on your part PG Mat not to use the term Kali. You dont have the burden of proving the historicity of and/or explaining the term. Pananandata, on the other hand, best reflects your ethnic roots and the Tagalogs particular approach to FMA. I agree on that no other had worked hard to have the term Pananandata as a standard in FMA lexicon. Me myself, having gone through countless books, magazines, websites, and other references, could only trace the intensive use of the name Pananandata back to you. Word contractions are unheard of in the Cebuano dialect, at least in the pre-modern era and the traditional form of the dialect. Familiar Cebuano contractions such as Eskrido and Olisitrisimo are 20th Century practices. The Cebuanos, like the Ilonggos, Karay-as, Ilocanos, used the term Kali for digging. The Cebuanos as an ethnic group did not create the term kamot lihok Kali to refer to their martial arts. Escrima was the term used by the Cebuanos. The Labangon Fencing Club, founded in the 1920s, and its reincarnation the Doce Pares, founded in 1932, used the term Escrima as well as the other Eskrimadores not connected to these organizations. Doce Pares went on to become the first national and international level FMA organization from the Philippines, if Im not mistaken. However, it was a Cebuano, the late Grandmaster Floro Villabrille, who started the use of the term kamot lihok Kali when he was in Hawaii. Tip toes or tip tonguesthat was a good one :p Although spelt the same, the Cebuano and Ilonggo kamot hand and the Tagalog kamot scratch differ in how they are pronounced, having to do with which syllable is emphasized (sorry dont know how to put it in a comparative phonetic format). The Dance of Death was originally known as Yao Yan Karate. OK Po. Will keep you posted when it would be out. For the meantime, I need to go to more mountains or beach communities to add more insights into my research. My auntie is an expert in swimmingin the table! Yah, shes into mahjong too :p James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Pananandta@aol.com wrote: Hi James, Great arguments all over. (A) I think that problems will always arise when the two following issues are not kept separate. (1) kali being claimed to be "the mother art" and (2) attempts at explaining the origin and meaning of the word kali. I would not dare discuss the the origin of the art kali. I wouldn't know. If I considered kali better, I would have used it as part of the name of my family's system. I didn't. I chose a name that I can easily explain. But I will always be willing to discuss kali's meaning and try to explain it (a) in the context of the culture of the Filipinos, (b) in the words derived from Sanskrit that are still in use, (c) the mental and physical focus displayed by its practitioners and (d) the results of the practice of the art. In a message dated 5/27/2007 11:58:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: What’s in a name? If we accept the logic that it’s just a name, then why would a Muslim find it offensive to be called Moros? then why would a black man find it offensive to be called Negro? then why is it improper for a Chinese to call a helper huanapo? (B) The official explanation from this lineage of Kali is indeed the Cebuano words kamot “hand” and lihok “movement/motion” no doubt about it. A child, before birth, will usually come into the world with a name. Among Filipinos, one of the potential sources for a child's name is a Catholic calendar - the name of a Saint or the name of a very important Catholic event. It did not work for me. I was born February 11 a big day among Catholics - Our Lady of Lourdes. I could have been named Lou but I wasn't - too foreign. About kali: The Cebuanos would not have gotten one syllable from "kamot" and another sylabble from "lilok" to come up with the word "kali" for no reason. They wanted to give a name to something that already existed. The art already existed but there was no name. Hence, the need to find a name. The conclusion is: the art existed before it had a name. The problem arises when the time line between the very beginning of the art and the coining of it's name are made identical. BTW, in Tagalog, "Kamot" means "to scratch". This is typical among Philippine dialects. It gets bad sometimes. One word in one dialect could mean pleasant things. In another dialect after you said the same word, you might have to run for your life! So one has always to be on "tip toes" or "tip tongues??" A more recent example in the FMA is YawYan. Founder Nap (Fernandez) was my younger aikido brother. His art was born but it didn't have a name. He had to find a very appropriate name. Hence, the art is older than the name. By the way James, (a) I would like to get a copy of your book when it gets published (b) Most of those I play mahjong with are Cebuanas who are family friends. I get to play when they need to fill a chair :-) APMarinas Sr. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 04:01:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Number of dialects Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Sir Jay, More like the case of an Ilonggo who can understand Cebuano and vice versa without really knowing the other language. Also applies to Filipino and Spanish to some extent. Tagalog is convenient to have around when it reaches a point where both cant understand each other. Tagalog can easily bridge the gap. Please correct me if I am wrong but Arnis/Escrima is called Singkatan or Singkaw in Pangasinan? God bless. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 04:02:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Sir Jay, Im sorry, I dont mean to say that you started the Kali debate again. I was just using your post as a point of reference. Actually, it all started from the original inquiry on the meanings of Guru, Massaguru, and Tujon last April 21 or earlier (I forgot who was the inquirer). Regards. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 04:04:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - Going Back to the Baginning To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Red Baron, And to add The term Kali could not have encompassed the totality of FMA because the Philippine archipelago was not yet unified as a nation before the Spaniards arrived. Rather the ancient Filipinos lived in small barangays and did not have far reaching contacts with other barangays. --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 04:19:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Salakab/tungya (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #184 - 13 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi PG Mat, Im from Negros Occidental, from Western Visayas (Region 6). I agree with you that there are words with the same spelling from different Philippine languages/dialects which may or may not have the same meanings and words that are totally foreign to each language/dialect. Here are some samples that the CMAS Documentation Team had gathered: Libang (Cebuano) - Deficate Libang (Tagalog) - Recreation Lingkod (Cebuano) Sit Lingkod (Tagalog) - Serve Sabot (Cebuano) - Understand Sabot (Ilonggo) - Pubic hair Usa (Cebuano) - One Usa (Ilonggo) - Dear Usa (Tagalog) - Dear Of course, there are also words that have the same spellings but are pronounced in a different way or with a different accent/syllabic emphasis from each language/dialect, such as: Buno (Tagalog) - Wrestling Buno (Ilonggo) - Stab Kamot (Cebuano) - Hand Kamot (Ilonggo) - Hand Kamot (Tagalog) - Scratch Suko (Cebuano) - Angry Suko (Tagalog) - Surrender The issue is not that the term Kali did not exist in the Philippines because the term did exist in the different languages/dialects but not in reference to FMA. The issue is Kali as used as an ancient name for a martial art or Mother Art do not have any historical, literary, archaeological, hoplological, anthropological, linguistic, etc. basis except for the chapter on Mirafuentes Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis, which in itself do not have any bibliography or references. (Which was strange considering that the book by Yambao was published by the University of the Philippines Press.) Prof. Bots frustration over the lack of references is not without basis. In a separate future post I will explain why bibliography will establish the credibility of Mirafuente. In a future post, I will share with EDers my take on the Yambao book. Although a noble task, the creation of a database of all dialects created separately, then merged, then sorted alphabetically would be laborious, time consuming, expensive, and not necessary to solve the Kali myth. With more than 179 languages/dialects in the archipelago, FMAers, as some posters would say, will no longer have time to train. At this point, many researches had narrowed down the searching field for Kali the ancient Mother Art to a few languages/dialects in the Philippines as to wit: Cebuano - Based on the definition kamot lihok. Ilonggo - Based on the theory that Kali was brought by the 10 Bornean Datus to Panay. Tagalog - Based on Yambaos book (although the historical events referred to in the section also included Visayan historical figures). Muslim dialects - Based on the theory that Kali is Muslim. If we want to extend it further, we can include non-Philippine languages such as: Bahasa Indonesia - Based on the theory that Kali is related with Silat or was derived from Silat. Indian language - Based on the theory that Kali is of Indian origin. However, we have learned that Kali is To dig Ilonggo as well as in Karay-a and Ilocano. Sword as in kalis in Tagalog and some Muslim dialects such as Tausug. River, Multiplication in Indonesian Goddess, Black, Times in Indian. So at this point, we are into a dead end, no Kali the ancient name for FMA is found either in modern usage or in eras gone by when we check the historical, literary, folkloric, archaeological, etc. documentation or preservations. As Ms. Starburger previously posted, The fact that the word "kali" exists in a number of different languages in various forms and with various meanings would be totally irrelevant and coincidental in this case. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Pananandta@aol.com wrote: Hi Dong, Jay, James, Dong's guess was peripheral. The salakab is used downward and the tungya is used upward. James is right. Both are fishing tools. Jay hit it on the button. Salakab is cylindrical and made of bamboo sticks (the diameter of barbeque spits but much longer) arranged around 4 rings with an open top (as the 4th ring). The salakab is used in the shallow waters of rice paddies. It is about 2 feet high designed for even young boys to reach down to touch the ground. Hence it cannot be used in river waters. It is thrust into the water to trap a fish. The fish is then grab through the open top and put in a buslo (a basket woven container made of crisscrossing patterns of thin bamboo strips that has a narrow waist provided with a cover and a strap for carrying on the shoulder). A number of things comes to light. Dong's province Pampanga has a common boundary with my province Nueva Ecija. He would be expected to get very close with his guess. His guess was peripheral. James is from Southern Philippines and is very well travelled and I didn't expect him to have a clue. James from the scholarly way he writes must also be a wide reader. Jay, from what I can gather, from the scholarly way he writes must also be a wide reader. Jay, I think is also well traveled having lived in Cotabato but went to school in Manila. Dong is a craftsman of great skill. Their knowledge of the meanings of the words are of different degrees. By the same token, the knowledge of the existence of the names of the words used to refer to Philippine stick and knife fighting can be blurry for some, almost known to some and very definite for some others. If there is a dictionary for all the dialects in the Philippines, there will be common words with the same spelling that might have the same meanings but then there are also words that might have acquired different meanings (over time) such as kali. There will be also words that are totally foreign to each dialect. Hence, it will not be safe to make the conclusion that a word does not exist because it is not in a particular dialect's dictionary. A good way to check would be to create a database of all dialects separately, then merged, then sorted alphabetically. (Fields names could include:word, meaning, name of dialect; primary sort will be word and the secondary sort will be dialect) But then there will be words that could fall between the cracks. Kali, with the meaning that has been attached to it as a martial art, could be one of these words. This could lead to the conclusion that the word kali does not exist. APMarinas Sr. --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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