Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 02:58:29 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #195 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. KALI RECORDS (james jr. sy) 2. Cockpit & Salakab (james jr. sy) 3. Re: karatefication or arnisification (james jr. sy) 4. Re: Karate & Arnis (james jr. sy) 5. Re: Weapon vs Kamot, Doing Forms with Weapons (james jr. sy) 6. Gladiator Style?!? He's kidding right? (B Katz) 7. ILOCANO AND PANGASINAN (Aurelio Devera) 8. Re: Church Manuscripts & Yambao's Boo (iPat) 9. Re: ILOCANO AND PANGASINAN (ed garcia) 10. Re: KALI RECORDS (iPat) 11. Good Point Red (GatPuno@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 04:23:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] KALI RECORDS Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Pat, I agree with you. GM Lacoste is as important as GM Villabrille in this discussion on Kali. GM Lacoste, as you shared, had used terms from the elder Inosanto’s dialect. Unfortunately, we don’t know what that dialect is. We can guess it’s Cebuano because of kamot lihok but then that is GM Villabrille’s definition. And we know that ancient Cebuanos didn’t use contractions. We also know that it is not Hiligaynon, Karay-a, or Ilocano because Kali in these languages means “to dig.” Then we’ll just have to wait until somebody tells us what that language/dialect was. “Many ancient manuscripts were destroyed or removed by the Spanish” would not necessarily be accurate since most of Filipino records were written in leaves and other biodegradable materials so time itself were their greatest enemy. However, there is a wealth of records from surrounding countries like China and even from the colonizers from which we can get a glimpse of the culture in a specific era. This is one method used by archaeologists, historians, etc. in cross referencing. Now if we really want to insist that there were no records to talk of, we need to answer the question why is it that in the 334 years that Spain ruled the Philippines, we don’t see any mention of the term Kali in Spanish records, even once? It was said that Kali was banned. If it was banned indeed then there should be mention of it in the documents. But why none? This is what I mean when we ask for historical proof. We talk about facts, not opinion or speculation. As with regards “a lot that cannot be proven,” I can tell you that we who live here in the Philippines are first hand witnesses of how our country is being Kali-fied with countless attempts at forcing the term to become one with our culture. It would be too long to include all of those here but Bo Kaner’s post is one graphic example. After more than one month of discussion, so many evidences were presented why Filipinos are not convinced that Kali is an ancient name and is the Mother Art but it seems these are not enough. Maybe one of these days, I can present the whole picture of this discussion. What we are doing so far was segmented analysis but once the pieces of the puzzle are all in, I believe everything will be clearer. Sometimes it’s kinda funny because it’s the critic(s) who give proofs, not the other way around. Normally, claims are backed up by proofs. I’m sorry but I have to disagree with you on this, “yes some will over exaggerate but it all adds to the wealth of the arts.” The current debate on Kali only served to divide people; real wealth unites people. And it also served to downgrade Arnis/Escrima, the supposedly Spanish stick-based, incomplete, diluted systems that derive from a Mother Art. You’re right, it was Mirafuente who wrote the historical section on Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis, not Yambao. I have a different post on the matter because I believe it would require deeper analysis. But for the purpose of this post, suffice to say that the techniques talked about in Yambao’s book (which Yambao called Arnis) are from the Northern Philippines (Luzon) while those taught by GM Villabrille or GM Lacoste were from Central Philippines (Visayas). If one would propose Yambao’s book as proof for the use of the term Kali in the US, then one needs to show proof that the techniques mentioned in Yambao’s book are basically the same as those used by GM Villabrille or GM Lacoste, not by physical action alone but by terminology and nomenclature. Presuming that Mirafuente wrote the historical section of the book 30 years prior to the publication of the book, that would have been written in 1927. But still that comes up short by 96 years vs Florante at Laura, which was published in 1838. The points I have raised are very basic to this discussion. We can not just sweep it aside and say, we don’t need to talk about it, take it for what it is. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 04:25:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Cockpit & Salakab Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi PG Mat, Arnis had been fought in Cockfighting arenas in Negros but more were fought in the mountains and the farmlands as well as the seashores. And not only Arnis, but also Boxing and Dumog. To add to the definition, salakab, when used as a verb, would mean something like “paano mahuhuli” (how to catch). For example, gagawa tayo ng patibong para natin siya masalakab (we will make a trap so that we can catch him). James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 04:27:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] karatefication or arnisification To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Prof Bot, When I was newer to the martial arts, I had come across the fact that GM Lema did learn Karate but it was not specified which particular style. It would not be a surprise that it would be Shorin-Ryu since it was the predominant style of Karate in Panay, thanx to GM Latino Gonzales. GM Ondillo gave my group a short seminar last February when they were visiting our place for the Western Visayas Regional Athletic Association (WVRAA) Meet. When he taught LSAI empty handed disarming techniques, he called it American Combat Judo, which I hypothesize has something to do with WWII combatives taught to the USAFFE (but I may be mistaken). Please correct me if I am wrong but I think GM Lema was a soldier or guerilla in WWII. BTW, GM Ondillo did Shotokan. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 04:29:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Karate & Arnis To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Prof Bot, When the Philippine Karate Association (PKA) was still the governing body for Karate in the Philippines the tendency would have been for Karate practitioners to come from more not-so-well-to-do origins considering the full contact ruling of the association. In local tournaments held in Negros, Karatekas normally go home with a reddish fist imprints in their chests. This would usually discourage the richie ones. It was because of this that Taekwondo became popular since although it was full contact, it has a lot of protective gears whereas old school PKA had none. Since the Philippine Karate Federation (PKF) took over as the recognized ruling body for Karate, more richie people are into Karate. PKF is based on the point fighting system. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan once dominated the tournament circuit in Negros. The Tang Soo Do people of that time under GM Casimiro A. Grandeza and Chief Instructor Elmer V. Montoyo would face against Shotokan stylists from different clubs. It was always the favorite of TSD guys to head hunt and kick KOs were common. Not even Taekwondo dared enter Moo Duk Kwan tournaments. Today, GM Grandeza is retired and has designated his trusted nephews in Davao to continue the Philippine Moo Duk Kwan Inc.-Korea Soo Bahk Do Inc. Association (PMDKI-KSBDA). Meanwhile Master Montoyo opened his own school, the Philippine Integrated Martial Arts Academy-Filipino Tang Soo Do Association (PIMAA-FTSDA), to propagate his Filipino Tang Soo Do. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. eskrima@martialartsresource.net --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 04:31:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Weapon vs Kamot, Doing Forms with Weapons To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Prof Bot, Flesh and bone doesn’t stand a chance against inanimate wood or shining steel. The same concept of holding a weapon(s) while doing a form (hyung/poomse/kata/kune) was taught in Taekwondo Grandmaster Kim Bok Man’s book which showed the older traditional TKD patterns. As an example, a knife hand block with closed fists (I forgot the name already), one arm blocking outward in front of the body and the other raised to the level of the forehead, is interpreted as a cover or block with a long stick held by both hands. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 05:59:33 -0700 (PDT) From: B Katz To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Gladiator Style?!? He's kidding right? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this one is bunk! I am an amatuer hoplogist and in my YEARS of reading about the Romans have I ever come across any mention of the techniques used by the gladiators. There were a multitude of armor-weapon combinations, each using their unique tactics and techniques. To say that this is a "new" find is silly! The discovery of a gladiator training manual would have at least made a ripple in the archaeology community, and most likely would have warranted a spot on the news as well. And as for learning it in THREE DAYS... How many of us have been to a seminar and can remember everything that we learned in a class room situation, let alone in a street combat setting with terminal hydraulic failure on the line? I have been taught by more than one instructor that it requires somewhere in the neighborhood of 3000 repititions of a technique for it to become "muscle memory". I hate to think of how much coffee it would take for me to stay awake for the three days required to become a certified gladiator bad-ass! Who knows... he might be the real deal, but it's not often that the real deal runs down Bruce Lee while promising to make you a street figher in three days... I'm spending my $70 on a date with my wife! :) Give me a stick and a skull to swing it at! --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 08:10:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Aurelio Devera To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] ILOCANO AND PANGASINAN Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I was born in Hawaii - but I grew up in Bonuan Gueset, Dagupan City, Pangasinan. as a young buck, I remember some old timers from there (old friends and cousins of my late Father Ignacio Villanueva de Vera, SR., demonstrating forms and teaching medium range and short range - a few of them left - late 60's (pre WWII era) just like my DAD...they did show us some solo daga but not much... but they do train with solo daga (barang),... from what they told me from their childhood years the History in that northern part region - Arnis de mano is more emphasize in training from Ilocos norte, Iocos Sur, La union, Pangasinan, all the way down to Pampanga... Pangasinan Arnis show Power - not much into twirlings fancy stuff, my family does have history of bastoneros from what I hear, in La union and Magaldan, Pangasinan. btw dont ask me what their names are because I dont remember :-) Mabuhay and salamat (just putting in my two cents that I can remember) --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:50:38 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Church Manuscripts & Yambao's Boo Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net no i disagree with your point. We are not in court and the comments are direct quotes (where i previously provided links) from authorities one of which has been party to this discussion. If you wish to take them to task for the point then do so, but you've jumped on the back of the discussion, taken things out of context, accused me of insulting people and have no understanding on the nature of my involvement in the thread. You do so with a patronising manner (Pat my friend/Will excitedly await your reply) that does you no favours nor to any point that you may put forward validly. Now please do not waste my time with this self indulgent bs. On 6/17/07, Red Gonzales wrote: > Pat my friend, > > You are right I am entitled to my own opinion, I just don't feel comfortable with how you put things across. And I don't see any humor there. Might just be me. > > Based from your reply, I would surmise that .. > With that said Mr. Davies I hope you can give more concrete/solid evidences for the use of the term. What has been posted here just doesn't just add up to something logical. > > Will excitedly await your reply. > > Salamat po. > > Red Gonzales -- Pat Davies --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:14:55 -0700 (PDT) From: ed garcia Subject: Re: [Eskrima] ILOCANO AND PANGASINAN To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi! I also grew up in Dagupan City, Pangasinan. From what I recall back then, arnis had a shady reputation, a skill reserved only for neighborhood toughies. These guys did not teach the art to anyone, not even close friends or family members, and practiced in secret. For good reason, I knew one who was an ex-convict from Muntinglupa and another, the head of the local barangay tanod (village watch/security) who was shot to death by his enemies from behind.The only indication they had knowledge of the art was the kamagong stick (garrote) they always carried with them. The art was called arnis de mano, armas de mano, garrote, sikbatan, barangan, panagbarang etc. I was fortunate to learn the basics from a farmer in Labrador, Pangasinan. He taught 4 strikes and one thrust, the blocks for each strike and some footwork. All this was done with the barang (bolo machete to non-filipinos). I agree that there is very little twirling done, mostly power hacking and slashes. Back then, I had no idea what he taught was FMA. He just called it sikbatan (hacking) which is like saying shotokan karate is about fighting. Just my two centavos worth of childhood memories. a To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 8:10:19 AM Subject: [Eskrima] ILOCANO AND PANGASINAN I was born in Hawaii - but I grew up in Bonuan Gueset, Dagupan City, Pangasinan. as a young buck, I remember some old timers from there (old friends and cousins of my late Father Ignacio Villanueva de Vera, SR., demonstrating forms and teaching medium range and short range - a few of them left - late 60's (pre WWII era) just like my DAD...they did show us some solo daga but not much... but they do train with solo daga (barang),... from what they told me from their childhood years the History in that northern part region - Arnis de mano is more emphasize in training from Ilocos norte, Iocos Sur, La union, Pangasinan, all the way down to Pampanga... Pangasinan Arnis show Power - not much into twirlings fancy stuff, my family does have history of bastoneros from what I hear, in La union and Magaldan, Pangasinan. btw dont ask me what their names are because I dont remember :-) Mabuhay and salamat (just putting in my two cents that I can remember) --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:28:26 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI RECORDS Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net James, On 6/17/07, james jr. sy wrote: > > Then we'll just have to wait until somebody tells us what that language/dialect was. my time with Guro is short and i do not like to dwell on things that are probably of little consquence in the big picture of my training under him. The next time, i f i get the oppertunity i will ask more about Lacoste and the relationship with Inosanto senior. > > "Many ancient manuscripts were destroyed or removed by the Spanish" would not necessarily be accurate since most of Filipino records were written in leaves and other biodegradable materials so time itself were their greatest enemy. i accept this, i have seen the same thing in Thailand. > > However, there is a wealth of records from surrounding countries like China and even from the colonizers from which we can get a glimpse of the culture in a specific era. This is one method used by archaeologists, historians, etc. in cross referencing. Accepted > > Now if we really want to insist that there were no records to talk of, we need to answer the question why is it that in the 334 years that Spain ruled the Philippines, we don't see any mention of the term Kali in Spanish records, even once? > Well i accept your point, but my point earlier in the discussion is based on my own historical interests in the Celtic history of the british isles and how the church would change words from pagan roots and never utter the origional word as it had been cleansed. This practice has been seen where the church (i am trying not to insult any people who may be members of the said church) has religiously cleansed. Do they refer to other ancient practices out of interest? > It was said that Kali was banned. If it was banned indeed then there should be mention of it in the documents. But why none? This is what I mean when we ask for historical proof. We talk about facts, not opinion or speculation. > of course, but there are also two prongs to this fork. There is enough speculation (let us not include the kalification practices allegedly used more recently as they are not the point in question here) to suggest that there is value in the term in older times. Now, to return to an emphasis i made earlier on in the thread, while it is important to be historically correct the fables of the blind princess give a wealth to the art and the country as a whole. There are fables in my roots that are woven in my culture which are so far from the truth it is silly but the fables are part of the rich tapestry of life. I may jest to the scots i live amongst that their Braveheart is a hollyification of the truth but would they be richer or poorer without the Loch Ness monster? > As with regards "a lot that cannot be proven," I can tell you that we who live here in the Philippines are first hand witnesses of how our country is being Kali-fied with countless attempts at forcing the term to become one with our culture. It would be too long to include all of those here but Bo Kaner's post is one graphic example. And i for one fully accept that and condemn it. My father was forced at school not to speak welsh so i have sympathies here. But i think this is a seperate point from our discussion although i understand it would put fire in the belly! > > After more than one month of discussion, so many evidences were presented why Filipinos are not convinced that Kali is an ancient name and is the Mother Art but it seems these are not enough. Maybe one of these days, I can present the whole picture of this discussion. What we are doing so far was segmented analysis but once the pieces of the puzzle are all in, I believe everything will be clearer. Maybe because i have seen the passion in one mans eyes who stands by that statement and wouldnt make it lightly. Remember as the discussion has pointed out, the term came from Filipinos origionally, well schooled Filipinos with a great respect to their culture and a great passion for their homeland. > > Sometimes it's kinda funny because it's the critic(s) who give proofs, not the other way around. Normally, claims are backed up by proofs. > > I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on this, "yes some will over exaggerate but it all adds to the wealth of the arts." The current debate on Kali only served to divide people; real wealth unites people. And it also served to downgrade Arnis/Escrima, the supposedly Spanish stick-based, incomplete, diluted systems that derive from a Mother Art. i dont see it that way, but my experience of several arts is that they are all bits of a jigsaw, not one has it all and they all add to each other. Therefore they can never be dilluted systems. > > You're right, it was Mirafuente who wrote the historical section on Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis, not Yambao. I have a different post on the matter because I believe it would require deeper analysis. > > But for the purpose of this post, suffice to say that the techniques talked about in Yambao's book (which Yambao called Arnis) are from the Northern Philippines (Luzon) while those taught by GM Villabrille or GM Lacoste were from Central Philippines (Visayas). If one would propose Yambao's book as proof for the use of the term Kali in the US, then one needs to show proof that the techniques mentioned in Yambao's book are basically the same as those used by GM Villabrille or GM Lacoste, not by physical action alone but by terminology and nomenclature. > > Presuming that Mirafuente wrote the historical section of the book 30 years prior to the publication of the book, that would have been written in 1927. But still that comes up short by 96 years vs Florante at Laura, which was published in 1838. > > The points I have raised are very basic to this discussion. We can not just sweep it aside and say, we don't need to talk about it, take it for what it is. > the emphasis of the discussion has served to establish that the term was established in the Phillipines. Where these scholars got the term from needs further investigation. What i cannot do is turn around and simply reject the validity as i respect to much those from whence i first learnt the term. that to me would be a crime i couldnt live with, doesnt mean i blindly follow but i know that the sources are not fools. Now im off to walk the dog (called? you guessed it!) -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 11 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:18:44 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Good Point Red Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Red, Thank you for your concern.. I will make sure to listen very carefully to what GT Gaje would have to say in regardds of this mess. Dont worry, I am a good listener and I am not easy to convince by anybody. I would like to meet him, like he want to meet me and probably have a quality time to know him, just to talk to him and be around him I can easily gauge there what type of one person is. So thak you for your concern. I am looking forward to meet the man, and he is looking forward to meet me. He is is not the first person I will ask this question. When I met GM Bo Iasked him many questioned, and he is not happy to some of them but I get by and really down to my point with him. He loves me like hes Son, like GM Remy Presas love me like his son. The things is I am not affraid of anything what gonna happen in the other end of the. I will ask him like man and I am expecting an answer like man. I earned respect from GM Bo as we spend more time together in Seminar and sharing arts, I earned respect from GM Remy Presas the day he meet me on 1974 in Manila. I know deep inside I earned his respect from declining to be his right hand in the US, offering me to be the Highest Modern Arnis practitioner in the US and Europe. He was dissapointed after I declined that offer and he also offered me a $10,000 to open the Modern Arnis Headquarter here in Florida. I was treated both of GM to be my adopted father, as both GM openly claimed I am their adopted son. I calledboth of them "Ama" (Father) and GM Bo called me anak (Son) and GM Presas called me "Dodong" Anak (I assume is Son in Visaya) It might be a little different if I dont know GT Gaje prior of this meeting. I heard of him, more than he knows, I was dissapointed once, when he dont show up in the Seminar on 1992 that GM Bo arrange for him as a peace offerinbg Seminar. Thiis is the year that GM Bo said it over their friendship totally. Red, I am ready to face the consequence, wherever this question might bring me.. One way or the other someone has to ask this question and let me do the "honor" and I will respect the answer, I dont need to agree with it I just have to heard from him. A lot of the member know where I stand on the term.. I know Arnis-Eskrima and Estokada, I dont know Kali and I am interested where the origin of this so called FMA,from the man himself. We have a way in Laguna, if you want to know a particular techniques or defences to one angle of attack, or how to to this and that. Ask and you will get the answer, meaning you will get the answer. A lot of Maestro dont like question, its sign of doubt, doubt trigger their 'ego' pride that make them show you more than you asked. I do that to to my own student, and I am willing to take this again, if he is willing to give the answer.. I will let you know, but first I will be meeting GT Gaje and his host Dino for a Karaoke night, I heard that he is a good Karaoke Player. Well, I will face him to Karaoke too, I will share with him my Singing talent too. He doesnt know that I was sixteen times Singing Champion in Laguna & Rizal province, I was schedule to sing in National Television Show "Bagong Kampeon" (New Champion) similar to American Idol type of deal , when I got a job offered that I cannot refuse, to work on board the ship of Carnival Cruise Lines. That was also my passport to meet my wife and later become US resident. Anyway, I cant wait to meet the old man, and finally face to face share with him all of the question I have.. Wish me luck my friend.. Keep posting good stuff.. Salamat Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 > The old generation Eskrimadores here can attest to that fact.  The only > thing is visiting foreigners don't get to met these old men who can tell them > the truth because the visitors are "quarantined." >    >   You are right, GT Gaje is one of those who had made a large impact in the > propagation of FMA abroad.  However, together with success comes some > unacceptable practices.  >    >   It might not be a good idea to talk to him about that but on second > thought it's better to hear it from the horse's mouth.  You will find GT Gaje to be > very eloquent and good in explaining things.  Listen to what he says and > please compare it to what you know.  Your gut feel will tell you what is really > is.    >    >   Salamat po.    > >   Red Gonzales >   > www.garimot.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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