Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 02:58:32 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #196 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Decuerdas Eskrima (James Judy) 2. And to the proposition for which it stands (Marc Denny) 3. Re: Shotokan and TSD - Filipino style (bgdebuque) 4. The Sulong Championships, Sept 16, Chicago, IL (Van Harn, Steve) 5. Re: Decuerdas Eskrima (jay de leon) 6. Re: And to the proposition for which it stands (jay de leon) 7. RCinco Teros of Ilocos and Pangasinan (GatPuno@aol.com) 8. Re: Kali in Panay: Bastoneros (Felipe Jocano) 9. Re: karatefication or arnisification (Felipe Jocano) 10. Re: ILOCANO AND PANGASINAN (jay de leon) 11. Re: Number of dialects (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 04:36:51 -0700 (PDT) From: James Judy To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Decuerdas Eskrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Does anyone here have any knowledge on Decuerdas Eskrima from Gilbert Tenio? Who is currently reputable in the art, after GM Tenio's passing? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:31:01 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] And to the proposition for which it stands Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net James Jr. Say: > Pat, > > I agree with you. GM Lacoste is as important as GM Villabrille in this > discussion on Kali. GM Lacoste, as you shared, had used terms from the > elder Inosanto's dialect. Unfortunately, we don't know what that dialect > is. > > We can guess it's Cebuano because of kamot lihok but then that is GM > Villabrille's definition. And we know that ancient Cebuanos didn't use > contractions. We also know that it is not Hiligaynon, Karay-a, or Ilocano > because Kali in these languages means "to dig." > > Then we'll just have to wait until somebody tells us what that > language/dialect was. FWIW my impression from listening to Guro I. over the years is that GM Lacoste had picked up the term during his extensive travels, which included time and training in the south. Concerning the language(s) of Guro's father, I had the honor of meeting him when he was 100. Apparently, like many Filipinos, he spoke many languages. His work in agriculture in the Stockton area with many Filipinos from many different groups probably developed that multi-lingual capability. What was interesting to me was that it was more comfortable for us to speak in Spanish, which he had learned in his youth during the Spanish era, than English, which he had learned later in life. > > As with regards "a lot that cannot be proven," I can tell you that we who > live here in the Philippines are first hand witnesses of how our country > is being Kali-fied with countless attempts at forcing the term to become > one with our culture. It would be too long to include all of those here > but Bo Kaner's post is one graphic example. > > After more than one month of discussion, so many evidences were presented > why Filipinos are not convinced that Kali is an ancient name and is the > Mother Art but it seems these are not enough. Maybe one of these days, I > can present the whole picture of this discussion. What we are doing so > far was segmented analysis but once the pieces of the puzzle are all in, I > believe everything will be clearer. James, perhaps I have missed it but I have not seen one single person here assert Kali is the Mother Art. Nor can I think of anyone here claiming it to be an ancient name. What I have seen asserted is that the Mirafuentes/Yambao book shows it to be of Filipino origen. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the impression I get is that the real disagreement is with your fellow Filipino, GT Gaje, not us. > > But for the purpose of this post, suffice to say that the techniques > talked about in Yambao's book (which Yambao called Arnis) are from the > Northern Philippines (Luzon) while those taught by GM Villabrille or GM > Lacoste were from Central Philippines (Visayas). If one would propose > Yambao's book as proof for the use of the term Kali in the US, then one > needs to show proof that the techniques mentioned in Yambao's book are > basically the same as those used by GM Villabrille or GM Lacoste, not by > physical action alone but by terminology and nomenclature. Please forgive me, but I disagree with this logic. Yambao's book is cited for the proposition that Kali was a term in the Philippines, thus disproving the assertion by some that it is a word made-up Filipinos in America/Filipino Americans. To my understanding it is NOT being cited for the proposition that the systems/arts of GM Villarbrille or GM Lacoste descended from Yambao. The Adventure continues, Crafty Dog/Marc --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:07:57 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Shotokan and TSD - Filipino style Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The original style GM Chinggi was actually Shotokan (the White Kimono days). When he migrated to TSD, some of his proteges chose to remain with the Shotokan style. The most prominent one was GM Enrique "Enrik" Maguad. His Shotokan school carried the name Renbukan. GM Enrik was a well-known knock-out artist in both streetfights and dojo challenge matches, courtesy of his devastating straight punch and front kick (bread-and-butter techniques of Shotokan). The other Shotokan loyalist I have heard of was a certain Manuel Cuizon. The best TSD exploit I have personally witnessed was during the First Iloilo City Open Kickboxing Championship in 1985 when the lone TSD entry (a 6-month white belt) TKOed a blackbelt in 38 seconds of the 1st round with his very first kick. The blackbelt was courageous enough to want to continue. The ring doctor thought otherwise though. He had a 3-inch cut under the chin and blood was gushing freely out of it... which made the Ring Doctor suspect that his chin had been fractured. Luckily, it was not. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan once dominated the tournament circuit in > Negros. The Tang Soo Do people of that time under GM Casimiro A. Grandeza > and Chief Instructor Elmer V. Montoyo would face against Shotokan stylists > from different clubs. It was always the favorite of TSD guys to head hunt > and kick KOs were common. Not even Taekwondo dared enter Moo Duk Kwan > tournaments. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:43:10 -0500 From: "Van Harn, Steve" To: Subject: [Eskrima] The Sulong Championships, Sept 16, Chicago, IL Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I didn't want to post this until I had a website to point towards for more details. They've got the details and rules for all four events posted now. Just go to http://bushido-martial-arts.com/tourney.html and click on the specific division box and the rules/details will come up in pdf. I tried the sparring division (Pacific Island) last year for the first time with that style of rules/fighting and had an absolute blast. Very safe using the smack sticks. Just gloves and a WEKAF type helmet. Although one of my opponents neglected to wear a cup and that didn't turn out too well ;-) The scoring is set up to more accurately simulate blade on blade encounters. One is able to find a pace and a rhythm and it is very enjoyable. Much preferable to stop point fighting. We are also going to try padded knife style fighting at my request this year. Please consider attending and pass this along. Hopefully I'll be healed enough to participate as we're planning to have trophy swords for the adult winners in some of the Pacific Island divisions. Feel free to share any comments you have from looking at the site. Steve --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:09:30 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Decuerdas Eskrima To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The current inheritor is Master Arthur Gonzalez, Sr. who calls his style "Tenio Decuerdas Arnis" out of Stockton, California. He was one of the featured instructors at my seminar Tipunan sa Disneyland http://www.tipunan.com/Events/tipunan-sa-disneyland/tipunan-disneyland_main.html I would have to look at my notes (in storage) but he either co-inherited with Gilbert Tenio's son or he succeeded Gilbert Tenio's son who retired. Hope this helps in your quest. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com James Judy wrote: Does anyone here have any knowledge on Decuerdas Eskrima from Gilbert Tenio? Who is currently reputable in the art, after GM Tenio's passing? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:28:00 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] And to the proposition for which it stands To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Yambao's book is cited for the proposition that Kali was a term in the Philippines, thus disproving the assertion by some that it is a word made-up Filipinos in America/Filipino Americans." Crafty: My own take, not speaking for anybody. It is not our assertion that Kali is a word made up by either Filipinos or Filipino Americans or even Americans in the US. So Yambao, Mirafuentes and presumably Bishop Aglipay used the term, as referring to FMA. The question is where is the proof of kali as FMA in the Phil--what town or province, who were the practitioners, what techniques or weapons were used, etc.? I personally have always had an open mind about this. Logically, one would suspect Mindanao. By the process of elimination, it appears unlikely kali was used in Luzon (not in Nueva Ecija, Pangasinan, Laguna, Ilocos, etc.) Many Visayans do not subscribe to the kali existence, especially after the many ongoing researches being conducted by Macachor, Nepangue, and our own James Sy and Ramon Rubia and other independent writers. But the bottom line is until somebody presents tangible historical or empirical proof that kali existed as an FMA name and style, we will always at the least be skeptical of any kali claims. As I have written before, the use of kali as an interchangeable name in the US is an entirely different matter. Kali is now in the FMA lexicon, probably on a worldwide basis. Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com Marc Denny wrote: James Jr. Say: > Pat, > > I agree with you. GM Lacoste is as important as GM Villabrille in this > discussion on Kali. GM Lacoste, as you shared, had used terms from the > elder Inosanto's dialect. Unfortunately, we don't know what that dialect > is. > > We can guess it's Cebuano because of kamot lihok but then that is GM > Villabrille's definition. And we know that ancient Cebuanos didn't use > contractions. We also know that it is not Hiligaynon, Karay-a, or Ilocano > because Kali in these languages means "to dig." > > Then we'll just have to wait until somebody tells us what that > language/dialect was. FWIW my impression from listening to Guro I. over the years is that GM Lacoste had picked up the term during his extensive travels, which included time and training in the south. Concerning the language(s) of Guro's father, I had the honor of meeting him when he was 100. Apparently, like many Filipinos, he spoke many languages. His work in agriculture in the Stockton area with many Filipinos from many different groups probably developed that multi-lingual capability. What was interesting to me was that it was more comfortable for us to speak in Spanish, which he had learned in his youth during the Spanish era, than English, which he had learned later in life. > > As with regards "a lot that cannot be proven," I can tell you that we who > live here in the Philippines are first hand witnesses of how our country > is being Kali-fied with countless attempts at forcing the term to become > one with our culture. It would be too long to include all of those here > but Bo Kaner's post is one graphic example. > > After more than one month of discussion, so many evidences were presented > why Filipinos are not convinced that Kali is an ancient name and is the > Mother Art but it seems these are not enough. Maybe one of these days, I > can present the whole picture of this discussion. What we are doing so > far was segmented analysis but once the pieces of the puzzle are all in, I > believe everything will be clearer. James, perhaps I have missed it but I have not seen one single person here assert Kali is the Mother Art. Nor can I think of anyone here claiming it to be an ancient name. What I have seen asserted is that the Mirafuentes/Yambao book shows it to be of Filipino origen. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the impression I get is that the real disagreement is with your fellow Filipino, GT Gaje, not us. > > But for the purpose of this post, suffice to say that the techniques > talked about in Yambao's book (which Yambao called Arnis) are from the > Northern Philippines (Luzon) while those taught by GM Villabrille or GM > Lacoste were from Central Philippines (Visayas). If one would propose > Yambao's book as proof for the use of the term Kali in the US, then one > needs to show proof that the techniques mentioned in Yambao's book are > basically the same as those used by GM Villabrille or GM Lacoste, not by > physical action alone but by terminology and nomenclature. Please forgive me, but I disagree with this logic. Yambao's book is cited for the proposition that Kali was a term in the Philippines, thus disproving the assertion by some that it is a word made-up Filipinos in America/Filipino Americans. To my understanding it is NOT being cited for the proposition that the systems/arts of GM Villarbrille or GM Lacoste descended from Yambao. The Adventure continues, Crafty Dog/Marc _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:35:21 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] RCinco Teros of Ilocos and Pangasinan Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ed Garcia, The arts that your father practice is the "Cinco Teros", and its the original arts of Luzon. > > Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:14:55 -0700 (PDT) > From: ed garcia > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] ILOCANO AND PANGASINAN > > Hi! I also grew up in Dagupan City, Pangasinan. From what I recall back > then, arnis had a shady reputation, a skill reserved only for neighborhood > toughies. These guys did not teach the art to anyone, not even close friends or > family members, and practiced in secret. For good reason, I knew one who was an > ex-convict from Muntinglupa and another, the head of the local barangay > tanod (village watch/security) who was shot to death by his enemies from > behind.The only indication they had knowledge of the art was the kamagong stick > (garrote) they always carried with them. The art was called arnis de mano, armas > de mano, garrote, sikbatan, barangan, panagbarang etc. > I was fortunate to learn the basics from a farmer in Labrador, Pangasinan. > He taught 4 strikes and one thrust, the blocks for each strike and some > footwork. All this was done with the barang (bolo machete to non-filipinos). I > agree that there is very little twirling done, mostly power hacking and slashes. > Back then, I had no idea what he taught was FMA. He just called it sikbatan > (hacking) which is like saying shotokan karate is about fighting. > Just my two centavos worth of childhood memories. > > Devera, During World War II, the art of Arnis was shortened to what they call is "Laban Tulisan" from Medio to Corto and Corto to Medio and vice versa.. But remember the medio range, was only used fro bridging the Gap between Largo range to Corto range. It basically the fighter was intentionally to get in and killed his opponent with quick strike to the "killing" part of the body. As soon as they close the used of stabbing, thrusting and slashes to the most sensitive part of the body. Hope you practiced them continuesly, is jewel of our culture.. Salamat, > a > Subject: [Eskrima] ILOCANO AND PANGASINAN > > > I was born in Hawaii - but I grew up in Bonuan Gueset, Dagupan City, > Pangasinan.  as a young buck, I remember some old timers from there (old friends and > cousins of my late Father Ignacio Villanueva de Vera, SR., demonstrating > forms and teaching medium range and short range - a few of them left - late 60's > (pre WWII era) just like my DAD...they did show us some solo daga but not > much...  but they do train with solo daga (barang),... from what they told me > from their childhood years the History in that northern part region - Arnis de > mano is more emphasize in training from Ilocos norte, Iocos Sur, La union, > Pangasinan, all the way down to Pampanga...  Pangasinan Arnis show Power - not > much into twirlings fancy stuff, my family does have history of bastoneros > from what I hear, in La union and Magaldan, Pangasinan. btw dont ask me what > their names are because I dont remember :-) >   Mabuhay and salamat (just putting in my two cents that I can remember) > This is worth more than two cent my friend. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:46:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali in Panay: Bastoneros To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Red; My dad referred to them as bastoneros. Interestingly, Cabatuan is next to Jelicon/Janiuay, an area known for two things: bandidos and bastoneros! :-) A locally published book on the history of Cabatuan shows a photograph of two old men doing what is labeled the Sinulog. One is holding a stick, the other a sword. I was there last 1995, but unfortunately, I wasn't able to stay long enough to find out if there were any bastoneros around. Sayang. Bot --- Red Gonzales wrote: > Hi Bot, > > Your father Landa Jocano was from Cabatuan, right? > > > Do you have any idea if they did indeed use the > term Kali in that part of the Philippines? > > Thanx. > > Red Gonzales > > > --------------------------------- > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://ph.mail.yahoo.com > > --------------------------------- > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://ph.mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:08:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] karatefication or arnisification To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi James: When I learned from GM Lema and maestro Ybanez, the term they used was combat judo. I'm not sure why GM Ondillo uses the term American combat judo. What I do know is that GM Lema was indeed a guerilla during WWII. After the war, he was one of those personnel who went to the Kodokan for the intense training course in judo. GM Lema was also a member of the Air Force Fire Department in Guam for a while. One of my friends is also a 2nd dan in judo and 3rd in shorin ryu. When training under Mang Ben, the combat judo techniques were familiar to him, being very similar to the judo he had learned already. --- "james jr. sy" wrote: > Hi Prof Bot, > > When I was newer to the martial arts, I had come > across the fact that GM Lema did learn Karate but it > was not specified which particular style. It would > not be a surprise that it would be Shorin-Ryu since > it was the predominant style of Karate in Panay, > thanx to GM Latino Gonzales. > > GM Ondillo gave my group a short seminar last > February when they were visiting our place for the > Western Visayas Regional Athletic Association > (WVRAA) Meet. When he taught LSAI empty handed > disarming techniques, he called it American Combat > Judo, which I hypothesize has something to do with > WWII combatives taught to the USAFFE (but I may be > mistaken). Please correct me if I am wrong but I > think GM Lema was a soldier or guerilla in WWII. > > BTW, GM Ondillo did Shotokan. > > James U. Sy Jr. > Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. > > > --------------------------------- > Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email > wherever you're surfing. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:00:19 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] ILOCANO AND PANGASINAN To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hi gordon: IMAFP has an excellent instructor based in Baguio who is also the national commissioner for IMAFP Cordillera. His name is lakan Nile Jordan. At one time we used to email each other. I will have to look up his email address but you can go to the IMAFP website (imafp.com, under national commissions) and see if you can contact him directly. I am under international commissions :) You might also want to check out this arnis school right in the heart of Dagupan City: http://www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com/Articles/deleon/martial_arts/garciano_arnis.html good luck. Jay de Leon www.tipunan.com Gordon Walker wrote: hi, I will be eventually making my way to baguio one of these days and my family there is from dagupan. I havent heard of the ilocano or pangasinan styles of filipino martial arts before. My family speaks both ilocano and pangasinan and the regions are right next to each other and blend in some areas, linguistically speaking, like baguio city. just wondering if there is any resource or practitioner of these styles that could point me towards an instructor. either in dagupan or baguio or somewhere easily accessible. I also just found out that the baguio City barangay I went to train in is one of the worst areas for crime. And there I was walking down the street with my sticks in hand. Kind of lucky I didnt get jumped I guess!! I was also wondering why my family was so concerned when I left. mind you guro/mr. meijia is a former police officer Regards, gord _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:22:07 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Number of dialects To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net James: I am not a native Pangasinense speaker. Acatalos ak, daysit labat (I understand and speak a little bit. Hablo un poquito.) I was a Manila boy. Another poster (Ed Garcia) just mentioned the following names used in Pangasinan--sikbatan, barangan, panagbarang. The first term is pretty close to your terms. Also, I remember them using the term barang for bolo, so the second and third terms also make sense. My father, born and raised in Pangasinan, told me many tales of seeing arnisadors in action in street encounters in Pangasinan. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com "james jr. sy" wrote: Hi Sir Jay, More like the case of an Ilonggo who can understand Cebuano and vice versa without really knowing the other language. Also applies to Filipino and Spanish to some extent. Tagalog is convenient to have around when it reaches a point where both can’t understand each other. Tagalog can easily bridge the gap. Please correct me if I am wrong but Arnis/Escrima is called Singkatan or Singkaw in Pangasinan? God bless. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest