Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 02:58:29 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #197 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. And to the proposition part three (Marc Denny) 2. Re: And to the proposition part three (jay de leon) 3. Filipinos using Kali (maurice gatdula) 4. Re: An Ilonggo barrio named "Kali" (bgdebuque) 5. Re: "TE" and the FMA (bgdebuque) 6. Re: Filipinos using Kali (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 05:38:31 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] And to the proposition part three Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Jay wrote: > >CD: "Yambao's book is cited for the proposition that Kali was a term in the > Philippines, thus disproving the assertion by some that it is a word > made-up Filipinos in America/Filipino Americans." > > Crafty: > > My own take, not speaking for anybody. > > It is not our assertion that Kali is a word made up > by either Filipinos or Filipino Americans or even > Americans in the US. > So Yambao, Mirafuentes and presumably > Bishop Aglipay used the term, as referring to > FMA. The question is where is the proof of > kali as FMA in the Phil--what town or province, > who were the practitioners, what techniques or > weapons were used, etc.? > I personally have always had an open mind about > this. Logically, one would suspect Mindanao. > By the process of elimination, it appears unlikely > kali was used in Luzon (not in Nueva Ecija, > Pangasinan, Laguna, Ilocos, etc.) Many Visayans > do not subscribe to the kali existence, especially > after the many ongoing researches being conducted > by Macachor, Nepangue, and our own James Sy > and Ramon Rubia and other independent writers. Guro I. has spoken of GM Lacoste being unusually well travelled and trained in the south, including with some Muslim groups, for someone of his background, so the theory that "Kali" was from Mindanao sounds plausible to me. > But the bottom line is until somebody presents > tangible historical or empirical proof that kali existed > as an FMA name and style, we will always at the least > be skeptical of any kali claims. Here I am baffled. You write "Yambao, Mirafuentes and presumably Bishop Aglipay used the term as referring to FMA". Why is this not "proof that Kali existed as an FMA name and style"? What am I missing? yip! CD --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:01:56 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] And to the proposition part three To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Crafty: You are missing the hard proof. If for you the fact that somebody avers something is proof enough, then fine, kali existed. But where did this kali exist in the Philippines-- geographically, practitioners, etc. Just from the forum, we can glean a lot of information. Let's take the town of Mangaldan, Pangasinan. Somebody mentioned names--sikbatan, barangan, panagbarang. Though I am not a native Pangasinense speaker, that sure sounded logical to me. Barang is bolo. He remembered 4 strikes and a thrust. GP Abon deduces that sounds like cinco teros to him, since cinco teros was prevalent in Luzon. I am sure if enough scholarly research was done, you can dig deep enough to come up with the arnis history of Mangaldan, Pangasinan. I would guess that PG Mat knows personally the arnis history of his town in Gapan, Nueva Ecija. So does Abon regarding certain towns in Laguna. I said I am keeping an open mind. I am still waiting for the historian or individual who can say, we found these town(s) in say, Palupandan or Tawi-tawi, and found elders who remembered practicing some martial arts in their youth, and they called it kali. All I am saying is, absent that kind of proof, I am skeptical as to the kali claims. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com Marc Denny wrote: Woof All: Jay wrote: > >CD: "Yambao's book is cited for the proposition that Kali was a term in the > Philippines, thus disproving the assertion by some that it is a word > made-up Filipinos in America/Filipino Americans." > > Crafty: > > My own take, not speaking for anybody. > > It is not our assertion that Kali is a word made up > by either Filipinos or Filipino Americans or even > Americans in the US. > So Yambao, Mirafuentes and presumably > Bishop Aglipay used the term, as referring to > FMA. The question is where is the proof of > kali as FMA in the Phil--what town or province, > who were the practitioners, what techniques or > weapons were used, etc.? > I personally have always had an open mind about > this. Logically, one would suspect Mindanao. > By the process of elimination, it appears unlikely > kali was used in Luzon (not in Nueva Ecija, > Pangasinan, Laguna, Ilocos, etc.) Many Visayans > do not subscribe to the kali existence, especially > after the many ongoing researches being conducted > by Macachor, Nepangue, and our own James Sy > and Ramon Rubia and other independent writers. Guro I. has spoken of GM Lacoste being unusually well travelled and trained in the south, including with some Muslim groups, for someone of his background, so the theory that "Kali" was from Mindanao sounds plausible to me. > But the bottom line is until somebody presents > tangible historical or empirical proof that kali existed > as an FMA name and style, we will always at the least > be skeptical of any kali claims. Here I am baffled. You write "Yambao, Mirafuentes and presumably Bishop Aglipay used the term as referring to FMA". Why is this not "proof that Kali existed as an FMA name and style"? What am I missing? yip! CD _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:01:56 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Filipinos using Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net part of the problem with "Kali" is that we now (actually we BEEN) have filipinos at home using the word, as a way to say "my art is older and better than those other guys". they are getting lots of foreigners to study with them, because the story they tell sounds pretty good, even that the instructors himself, is good too. but lets call a spade a spade, and name them, huh? * leo gaje * nene tortal * yuli romo * tony diego * all the other guys who jump on the wagon of kali, muslim clothing, and mysterious art. i am a muslim, born and raised. i even read those stories, and argued with my own family, that our art should be called "kali" instead of eskrima, and "silat" instead of kuntaw. after all, were muslim, so it must be true! so lets start with me, i used the name myself about 10 years ago. part of the reason, some of us do not criticise other filipinos, is that we do not want to be in public against our countrymen. but like i said, spade is a spade... kuya abon, i am curious to see what gaje will say to you about his use of kali. his argument is pretty good, and he uses lots of big words. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:05:26 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] An Ilonggo barrio named "Kali" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Honestly Red, I don't really know how the name came about. And I also doubt whether anybody can give an accurate account of the same. The name has been around as far back as the late 1800s though. While it does not prove that Kali is the Mother Art, it does prove that it would be totally acceptable to Ilonggo culture to call a place "Kali" or "Cali" (if you prefer the colonial spelling). Which, in turn, means that Tuhon Gaje's "KALInog" and "KALIbo" theories are not really that "far out" (a favorite Ilonggo street term during my time)... =[:->] > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:39:54 -0700 (PDT) > From: Red Gonzales > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] An Ilonggo barrio named "Kali" > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Bgdebuque, > > Are you suggesting that this is the link to the lost evidence of Kali the > Mother Art? > > So what's the etymology of the name of said barrior? > > Yah, better tell the supreme grandmaster. > > Red Gonzales > > > bgdebuque wrote: > Well, somebody should inform Tuhon Gaje that there is a Barrio in > Dumangas, > Iloilo named "Kali". > > Dumangas is probably one of the oldest Malay settlements in Panay, as well > as probably the 2nd oldest Spanish settlement in the Philippines (Cebu is > the oldest). It is supposedly also the site of the 1st Catholic church in > Panay (courtesy of the Agustinian Fathers). > > Interestingly, it is also probably one of the few towns in the Philippines > where the majority of the inhabitants converted to the Philippine > Independent Church of Father Aglipay during the heyday of the First > Philippne Republic. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:12:30 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] "TE" and the FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hhhhmm... It seems that the list I originally prepared on prominent FMA practitioners with a "TE" have gotten much longer. I now have the following: 1. MirafuenTE 2. CaneTE 3. SuliTE 4. LacosTE 5. TEnio 6. TErry =[:->] > > Does anyone here have any knowledge on Decuerdas > Eskrima from Gilbert Tenio? Who is currently reputable > in the art, after GM Tenio's passing? --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:30:45 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Filipinos using Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Maurice: I agree with the point you are making. That is the ugly side of kali. I condemn the practice, but I personally would hesitate criticizing anybody in particular, having been far removed from the Philippine scene for a long time now. Take Yuli Romo, for instance. I do not know if he belongs to that group. Although one of the pillars of Kali or Kalis Ilustrisimo, he now flies under his own banner of Sugbu Baraw. I am not sure if that banner is still cut from the same cloth as kali, or Kali Ilustrisimo, or muslim or indigenous tribal Filipino. And he seems to have been forever wearing those Muslim-looking clothes (could be indigenous tribal). In the interest of full disclosure, I happen to know and like Yuli Romo--a very down-to-earth, engaging individual. I do not personally know the others in your list. The other point I like to make is, I make a distinction between the kali believers in the Phil. and the U.S. I feel that most of the American kali believers in the U.S. are those that have always known their FMA as kali. I consider them as honest and true believers of kali, but a few of them have gotten suckered into defending the kali claim in the Phil. and as a result, gotten tarnished with the same brush. Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com maurice gatdula wrote: part of the problem with "Kali" is that we now (actually we BEEN) have filipinos at home using the word, as a way to say "my art is older and better than those other guys". they are getting lots of foreigners to study with them, because the story they tell sounds pretty good, even that the instructors himself, is good too. but lets call a spade a spade, and name them, huh? * leo gaje * nene tortal * yuli romo * tony diego * all the other guys who jump on the wagon of kali, muslim clothing, and mysterious art. i am a muslim, born and raised. i even read those stories, and argued with my own family, that our art should be called "kali" instead of eskrima, and "silat" instead of kuntaw. after all, were muslim, so it must be true! so lets start with me, i used the name myself about 10 years ago. part of the reason, some of us do not criticise other filipinos, is that we do not want to be in public against our countrymen. but like i said, spade is a spade... kuya abon, i am curious to see what gaje will say to you about his use of kali. his argument is pretty good, and he uses lots of big words. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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