Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 02:58:34 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #201 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: three sayings (bgdebuque) 2. FW: three sayings response (Balintawak Arnis) 3. Combatives against FMA (Guro Dennis Servaes) 4. Re: Combatives against FMA (RichaCec@aol.com) 5. Re: three sayings (for ray terry) (maurice gatdula) 6. Re: Decuerdas Eskrima (James Judy) 7. Re: Re: three saying (for maurice) (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:17:04 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] three sayings Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To my knowledge, my teacher in Iloilo City, Larry Santos Guatelara, has never awarded a black belt to anybody after about 30 years of teaching MA. The last time I saw him about 3 years ago, he has stopped teaching MA altogether and is already teaching Practical Shooting. Obviously, his teaching style won't work for somebody who wants to earn a full-time living teaching MA. I studied for about 2 years under him and he only charged me about $1.50 a month for the first 6 months. He stopped charging me anything starting the 7th month. If you are always absent, he will kick you out even if you pay your dues regularly. Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:52:49 -0700 (PDT) > From: maurice gatdula > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] three sayings > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > other teachers are different. you will only become an expert under him if > you are one of the best, and this teacher is struggling to make his fighters > the best. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Balintawak Arnis" To: Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:31:37 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] FW: three sayings response Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm usually content to lurk and just observe the discussions so, I'll apologize in advance for any ranting but, the hubris of some people never ceases to amaze me. And I really have difficulty with people who continuously speak in absolutes. > i met teachers who became very old men, and they are still holding parts of their system because they have no one to show it to. its not that there folks out there who dont want to learn it--the teacher doesnt have any student he wants to teach it to. in my kung fu style, i teach, i know more than 40 forms, but in 15 years of business i have never taught more than 10 of them. when masters take secrets (yes, there are many secrets in the martial arts. those who say there are none, just dont know them) to the grave, there is a good reason why. < Fine, let their "secrets", their art, and their legacy die with them. The world got along just fine before they came along with their "secrets" and I'm sure the world will continue to get along just fine after they and their "secrets" are dead and gone. Good riddance. > if a master told me, he has a hundred black belter students, i can show you at least 90 that cant hold a stick. even the best well known masters around will be lucky to have 10 true dedicated students, and maybe 5 of the dedicated ones will excel enough to be good representatives. < That's a pompous generalization. Are you implying that someone must be world-class in order to be considered dedicated or a good representative? Or that someone who trains a lot of people is by default producing substandard quality? Or are you confusing being a good representative with being a prodigy? Many excellent trainers have trained dozens of good, professional fighters over their careers without producing a world champion. And some trainers who have produced world champions haven't been world champions themselves. Since you made a reference to Floyd Mayweather, Jr., I'll reference Teddy Atlas, Freddie Roach, and Emanuel Steward as contemporary trainers of champions who weren't themselves champions. And there are great fighters/sportsmen/competitors who are lousy teachers. Ted Williams was one of the greatest hitters in baseball but, he made for a lousy batting coach. > competition is still fighting. take a streetfight. are you going to *kill* your opponent? how about if you got into a fight with a neighbor? are you going to try to break his neck? < Like Ray said - it depends on what's being fought for: fun, money, or blood? > every fight, even streetfights, have rules and limits. < Maybe where you come from, they do. Some of us travel in places where practically everyone is armed, any fight can be a deadly affray, and the only dirty fight is the one you lose. The only "rule" in those places is that the first one to die, loses. > ask a cop, how many people have he shot, he will probably tell you none. ask a soldier how many people did he shot, he will probably tell you none too. so how does he know that he can fight with a gun? < Another gross generalization mixed with uninformed speculation. Over my career, I've known many police, soldiers/sailors/Marines, and private citizens who've been in life or death fights. Most survived, most weren't involved in competitions prior to being involved in a fight, and most credit their training and luck with getting them through it. What soldiers have you been talking to? The cooks and bottlle washers? You know any Marine infantrymen who were in Fallujah, Iraq in November 2004? How about anyone from Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan in March 2002? > any man who builds his reputation by talking about a bunch of streetfights (or fights in prison), i'll show you a liar, or a man who is not mature enough to be a martial arts teacher, so he must be lying too. want to test his truthfulness? challenge him to a match right on the spot. he will never accept. < You advise people to proffer challenges so, whom have you challenged? Anyone recognizable or noteworthy? The fact that you would make such statements says to me that you must be very good and have never lost. I know a few people in certain circles who've earned reputations as street fighters. Some of them read the ED. I'm very curious to know if any of them are counted on your list of lying, immature, cowards. Robert --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 12:38:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Guro Dennis Servaes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Combatives against FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I want to forward this eMail from a guy that is promoting his DVDs by attempting to bad mouth FMA. Train hard and have fun! Dennis >Hi Dennis, Every culture throughout history has created some form of martial art so their >people can defend themselves in a time of crisis. But as we already know; the only true >test of a martial art is in actual combat. Known as Kali in Europe and the United States, >the knife and stick fighting based art is actually called Eskrima or Arnis by the Filipino >people. It is said that the art was developed over centuries during many intertribal >conflicts and wars with outside invaders. Those who practice Kali claim that is more then >just a cultural art and remains an effective form of self defense that can be taught to >someone quickly. And while on paper Kali seems like it has a lot to offer, both its >historical data and self defense methodology say otherwise. Many Filipino martial artists >cite the Battle of Mactan, which occurred on April 27, 1521 as proof that their system >works in battle. Warriors of Lapu-Lapu, a chieftain of Mactan Island, defeated a landing >force of Spanish sailors and soldiers under the command of Portuguese explorer >Ferdinand Magellan. Magellan's forces were armed with crossbows and muskets, but >were heavily outnumbered by the natives. The overwhelming tribal force cut them down >and the famous explorer was killed. The major flaw with this isolated example, is that it >is the only successful battle of hundreds throughout the sad but true history of a >conquered people. The Spanish Conquistadors went on to conquer all of the islands with >ease and held them until the United States invaded in 1898. The conquistadors were >skilled warriors even without muskets and cannons, because they forged their skills on >the battlefields of Europe for centuries fighting the also highly skilled Muslim >invaders???Not a bunch of tribal natives. Spain's fighting men conquered huge amounts >of territory, and destroyed ancient empires with discipline, superior tactics, and hard >training. The unfortunate tribal warriors of the Philippines (and their cultural fighting art >of Kali) were no different than any other native conquest to the Conquistadors. But >historical insignificance is not the only chink in the Kali armor. While it isn't fair to >discount Kali simply because its practitioners main focus is blades and sticks (they also >do practice some grappling and empty hand techniques), but this kind of training is >hampered in the real world. It has not been socially acceptable to carry a sword in public >in over 100 years and there are many restrictions on smaller bladed weapons. And >although Kali stick fighting looks impressive to the untrained eye, I have yet to hear of >one person beaten to death by a pair of Escrima sticks. All said and done, someone >armed with an ordinary wooden baseball bat or axe handle, could undoubtedly finish off >one of these so called ???dangerous?? stick fighters in a heartbeat. Like any cultural >fighting art, I don't condemn anyone for spending their time practicing Kali because it >seems like a decent physical conditioning method and a heck of a lot of fun. And while >weapons training can be a great addition to your close combat toolbox, learning from >these conquered people is not the answer as it is clearly not a legitimate method of self >defense. Train Smart, Chris "Lt. X" Pizzo www.TopSecretTraining.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: RichaCec@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 19:21:29 EDT Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Combatives against FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net What a misguided nay sayer!! ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:53:29 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: three sayings (for ray terry) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net 1. my point about the type of streetfight is not, would you kill an opponent, but to say that theres different kinds of streetfights. if a 15 year old jumps on you, you will not fight him like you will fight a grown man. if your SON wants to fight you, you will not fight him like you are going to fight a person who is home invasion robbery. if you are fighting your brother in law, this fight is not like fighting the punk who wants your wallet. in every fight you have rules. not every fight is a fight to the death. just like not every fight is a full-contact fight (doesnt matter if its a streetfight or competition). if you have a knife, you are not even going to fight every opponent the same way. these, like tournaments are rules. either you can fight or you cant. so, the more experience you get, the better for you. you know, martial artists like to say "i am only training for streetfighting". oh yeah? how? by fighting in the street? or by hitting targets? or maybe by doing drills? any kind of fighting you do, no matter if its in the street, in the school, or in a tournament, improves some part of your ability. even a point fight will develop your speed and distancing. 2. many people train with no fear at all. mostly because, they take too much control over his own training with this "make your own path" garbage. so, when a martial arts student has training with avoiding the things he is afraid of, he ends up doing things like, self-promoting, changing organizations like underwear, passing the schools to study by seminar, and making excuses so he doesnt have to go to competition. shit theres even some people who will not ever spar because "its not realistic enough"! a martial artist must face his fears, conquer them, and become convinced that no one can hurt him, if he ever wants to be able to be fearless on the street. 3. there is a BIG truth to this BJJ saying. many of us are unbeaten, because we never fought in a fight. some of us "train for" fighting two or three men, but they will never attempt it in a strong match. guarantee the guy who is afraid to fight ONE guy LIGHT CONTACT, has no chance of becoming successful in a fight vs 3. 4. tournament fighters know the difference between real fighting and competition. but excuse my rudeness for saying, that, they have a better idea how to fight, than the seminar junkie who spends his time hitting focus mitts and slapping hands. tournaments is nothing more than a simulated fight. no way around it, you have to have it.sparring with classmates is good, but sparring with strangers is better. people think that competition fighters will try the blitz backfist on the street. but the thing is, he will have a faster right cross than what most of us on this list have ever saw. i tell my students, beat the point fighter at his game before you put him down, cause remember just like you can hit the groing and punc full power, so can he. but the differnce is, you been hitting bags and mitts, he been chasing opponents and landing on them. tournament fighters have an advantage over non-competitors, because they have the skill of motion and timing. there is only one way to get it, and you wont get it in a seminar, i dont care if bruce lee taught it himself. we know the weakness of tournament fighting. now, to my eskrima brothers, what are you doing that is BETTER than fighting matches, that prepares you for fighting? From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net 1. Yes, that could unfortunately occur. (about killing an opponent) 2. Am I in fear for my life? Or the life of a loved one? (question about how much damage are you willing to do) 3. Reminds me a bit of the standard GJJ/BJJ claim; "if you can't beat one person then how can you ever expect to beat two or three". There is limited, yet a wee bit of truth in these statements. 4. Tournaments have their place. There are things to learn. But one may also very easily develop a false sense of superiority thinking that just because they 'kill' people in tournaments will mean they will do likewise in a street encounter. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:35:06 -0700 (PDT) From: James Judy Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Decuerdas Eskrima To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm all the way down in Victorville, too far from Stockton to train with him. I'm going to be getting some Decuerdas vids from a friend of mine & I was looking for some quality instruction for somewhere down the road. Is there anyone around down here in SoCal that represents Decuerdas Eskrima? Thanks. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: three saying (for maurice) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:56:00 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Lots of unusual questions, statements and generalities... > 1. my point about the type of streetfight is not, would you kill an > opponent, but to say that theres different kinds of streetfights. if a > 15 year old jumps on you, you will not fight him like you will fight a > grown man. Of course I will. I'm not checking an ID to see if I should sell him a beer. In many cases a 15 year old is just as dangerous, perhaps more so in some situations, as a 17 year old or a 22 year old. > in every fight you have rules. not every fight is a fight to the death. True. You have one rule in every fight. Stay alive. > you know, martial artists like to say "i am only training for > streetfighting". Actually, I don't know too many martial artists that make that claim. For better or worse, most martial artists that I know aren't all that focused on streetfighting. > a martial artist must face his fears, conquer them, and become convinced > that no one can hurt him, if he ever wants to be able to be fearless on > the street. I think not... The martial artist much face his/her fear so that they will NOT be fearless on the street. It is good to have fear. It is smart to have fear. Face your fear. Realize that there is good reason for fear. That fear may help you to live a bit longer. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest