Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 02:58:30 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #202 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: three sayings (james jr. sy) 2. Mark Harrell & Kali River (james jr. sy) 3. Shotokan and TSD - Filipino style, Grandmaster Casimiro “Chingi” A. Ggrandeza (james jr. sy) 4. RE: three sayings (Ste Ormerod) 5. Re: Combatives against FMA (Michael Gallagher) 6. Re: Shotokan and TSD - Filipino style, Grandmaster Casimiro (Ray) 7. Re: three sayings / robert (maurice gatdula) 8. Re: Combatives against FMA (Patrick Pace) 9. FMA in Madison, WI (tim) 10. Re: Combatives against FMA (Jonathan Kessler) 11. Re: three sayings (bgdebuque) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 03:19:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] three sayings To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net And to add, Sir Guatelara is a man of principles. It's always principles over favors. His "kick-out" policy is a trademark of TSD MDK which is the same practice used by Master Elmer V. Montoyo of Bacolod. bgdebuque wrote: To my knowledge, my teacher in Iloilo City, Larry Santos Guatelara, has never awarded a black belt to anybody after about 30 years of teaching MA. The last time I saw him about 3 years ago, he has stopped teaching MA altogether and is already teaching Practical Shooting. Obviously, his teaching style won't work for somebody who wants to earn a full-time living teaching MA. I studied for about 2 years under him and he only charged me about $1.50 a month for the first 6 months. He stopped charging me anything starting the 7th month. If you are always absent, he will kick you out even if you pay your dues regularly. Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:52:49 -0700 (PDT) > From: maurice gatdula > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] three sayings > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > other teachers are different. you will only become an expert under him if > you are one of the best, and this teacher is struggling to make his fighters > the best. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 03:26:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: Eskrima Digest Subject: [Eskrima] Mark Harrell & Kali River Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mark Harrell wrote: “I do not subscribe to the “Mother Art.” “I do not have any interest in that part of the Kali issue period.” “my interest is in learning more about the history and origin of older terms.” “It is my hope that the discussions would evenly produce a contribution to our collective understanding as well as create an exchange of ideas and opinions that might shed a little more light on the topic.” Point well taken Mark. My interest, as well as other Filipinos, lies in correcting the myths and misconceptions that have been transplanted (and expanded) to the west and that threaten to erode and downplay our real martial culture. Any right minded Filipino would feel a need to defend and expose the truth. It has been said time and again, Kali was never a term used for our pre-Hispanic Martial Arts. Why would there be a need to force Filipinos to acknowledge and accept this term as it is hyped? For centuries Filipinos had fought against imperialism, most of the time giving up their lives. What the Filipinos fought for was their rights and to be free from being commanded what to do or what is proper. You may not understand the frustrations of a Filipino because it is not your culture. When the September 11 tragedy happened, the Americans were the ones most shocked and hurt. Even if other nations sympathized with them, no other race can comprehend and appreciate the real pain the Americans felt during those times. The same is true with the Kali myth. Westerners may not give a fuss about it (it’s just a name) but for Filipinos it’s another story. The Kali myth is largely a 20th Century phenomenon whereas the other martial arts myths were developed centuries ago, especially those involving Bodhidharma. Since it is a relatively new myth it is still easier to disprove as opposed to debunking it a century or millennium after. I’m just one of several Filipino researchers who are working on debunking this myth. Dr. ned Nepangue and Celestino Macachor had already finished their book and the book will surely start people thinking. As this continues, I think more Filipinos will go out of the woodwork. As such, I work with facts, those obtained from historical documentation, credible cultural practices, first hand experience, etc. Opinions are good but until they are backed up by proof, they can not figure in a scholastic research such as this. Since we differ in our focus, I hope that somebody here at ED can supply you with the things you want to know. Good luck. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 03:29:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: Eskrima Digest Subject: [Eskrima] Shotokan and TSD - Filipino style, Grandmaster Casimiro “Chingi” A. Ggrandeza Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Agree to that Bgdebuque. For the added info of EDers, GM Grandeza’s White Kimono (founded: 1950) started out as a school for Arnis and Combat Judo (Jujutsu). Karate was introduced in 1958 (closed door training). White Kimono was then affiliated with the All Japan Karate Federation (AJKF) when Kondo, Koichi Sensei was its president. In 1968, GM Grandeza was sent by the Bacolod City Government to Seoul, South Korea for a study grant to attend the Top Masters Karate Course which was offered only once in every 10 years. GM Grandeza was promoted to 6th dan black belt after the intensive training. He was licensed to establish Moo Duk Kwan in the Philippines and as Black Belt Commissioner, he was authorized to promote and revoke black belts. The White Kimono was affiliated with the World Moo Duk Kwan-Korea Tang Soo Do Association and was renamed to the Philippine Moo Duk Kwan Inc.-Korea Tang Soo Do Association. Grandmaster Casimiro “Chingi” A. Ggrandeza, “The Father of Karate in Negros” and “The Father of Tang Soo Do in the Philippines,” is the first Filipino grandmaster of Korean Tang Soo Do. Some of the students of GM Grandeza who went on to become prominent instructors in their own right include the late George A. Gargalicano Sensei, 7th dan (Hiraken Tang Soo Do), the late “Berting” Garde Sensei, 6th dan (Masthodon Karate), Enriquito B. Maguad Jr. Sensei, 6th dan (Prokap, Renbukan), Elmer V. Montoyo Sabumnim, 6th dan (Philippine Integrated Martial Arts Academy-Filipino Tang Soo Do Association), and Asian Karate champion Jimmy Magbanua. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Ste Ormerod" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:08:45 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: three sayings Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, May I put my opinion forward? I can hear what you are saying Mr Gatdula, but personally I think there are some kinds of tournament 'fighting' that are a world apart from fighting in the real world. For instance, some techniques are applied improperly in a tournament setting, because it scores more points on someone in full WEKAF armour. Then when attempted to apply that same way in the street, it quickly turns into a nightmare. I agree, you can't be a real fighter without sparring. Just by taking notes and absorbing all a teacher has to teach gives you the theory, but you need the application. The key is balance. Ste _________________________________________________________________ Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:32:12 -0400 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Michael Gallagher Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Combatives against FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net At 03:38 PM 6/24/2007, you wrote: > I want to forward this eMail from a guy that is promoting his DVDs by > attempting to bad mouth FMA. > Train hard and have fun! > Dennis > > > ..... learning from >these conquered people is not the answer as it > is clearly not a legitimate method of self >defense. Train Smart, Chris > "Lt. X" Pizzo www.TopSecretTraining.com >_______ Whatever. To each his own. Send him an e-mail that says "Thanks for sharing." Other than that ... whatever. --__--__-- Message: 6 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Shotokan and TSD - Filipino style, Grandmaster Casimiro To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:22:35 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > GM Grandeza’s White Kimono (founded: 1950) started out as a school for Arnis and Combat Judo (Jujutsu). Karate was introduced in 1958 (closed door training). White Kimono was then affiliated with the All Japan Karate Federation (AJKF) when Kondo, Koichi Sensei was its president. > > In 1968, GM Grandeza was sent by the Bacolod City Government to Seoul, South Korea for a study grant to attend the Top Masters Karate Course which was offered only once in every 10 years. > > GM Grandeza was promoted to 6th dan black belt after the intensive training. He was licensed to establish Moo Duk Kwan in the Philippines and as Black Belt Commissioner, he was authorized to promote and revoke black belts. > > The White Kimono was affiliated with the World Moo Duk Kwan-Korea Tang Soo Do Association and was renamed to the Philippine Moo Duk Kwan Inc.-Korea Tang Soo Do Association. > FWIW, it seems this training would have been very MDK focused, given the date and org names given. By this time in Korea (1968) the vast majority of the top 'karate' masters were affiliated with Taekwondo, not Tang Soo Do, since Taekwondo had the backing of the Korean government. Being a MDKer myself, my guess is that this training would have been under MDK founder Hwang Kee and would have taken place in his school next to the Seoul City train station. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 09:18:45 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: three sayings / robert Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net is this robert klampfer? my comments are below. From: "Balintawak Arnis" To: Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:31:37 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] FW: three sayings response Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm usually content to lurk and just observe the discussions so, I'll apologize in advance for any ranting but, the hubris of some people never ceases to amaze me. And I really have difficulty with people who continuously speak in absolutes. Fine, let their "secrets", their art, and their legacy die with them. The world got along just fine before they came along with their "secrets" and I'm sure the world will continue to get along just fine after they and their "secrets" are dead and gone. Good riddance. ME: robert, you have to understand, not everyone is willing to share martial arts knowledge with just anyone, just because you paid for the seminar. dont be so angry. That's a pompous generalization. Are you implying that someone must be world-class in order to be considered dedicated or a good representative? Or that someone who trains a lot of people is by default producing substandard quality? Or are you confusing being a good representative with being a prodigy? Many excellent trainers have trained dozens of good, professional fighters over their careers without producing a world champion. And some trainers who have produced world champions haven't been world champions themselves. Since you made a reference to Floyd Mayweather, Jr., I'll reference Teddy Atlas, Freddie Roach, and Emanuel Steward as contemporary trainers of champions who weren't themselves champions. And there are great fighters/sportsmen/competitors who are lousy teachers. Ted Williams was one of the greatest hitters in baseball but, he made for a lousy batting coach. ME: your idea then, of what makes someone an expert is much lower than mine. so, in your classes, go ahead and "certify" average fighters. thats your business. BTW, floyd mayweather's uncle and father were VERY good fathers. yes, atlas, roach and steward are not known as boxers, but you are arguing another excuse people use to explain there own weaknesses. they dont need to be champions, but they were good fighters, who understands how to fight. freddie roach boxing record was 39 wins, 13 losses and that is still not too bad. teddy atlas record was 85 wins, 9 losses. emanual steward was 94 wins, 3 losses. so what's your point? do you believe that a man who doesnt know how to fight can teach others to fight? you been looking at the internet too long. some people think because they heard some great trainers couldnt fight, they can do it too. maybe its true, but its not a good idea. but i do agree with you that many good fighters made bad teachers. but all teachers have to know how to fight, and be good at it. would you give a college degree to a man with F's all his days in school? me, i dont like to reward average students. either they earn it or they dont. and i believe a student with the right attitude will learn how to fight. i never seen it any other way. why does my philosophy get you so pist off? btw, in my opnion, a good representative is only the best students i can develop. average is not good enough. Like Ray said - it depends on what's being fought for: fun, money, or blood? ME: it doesnt matter when we are talking about training. you have to be able to do all of them. my questions is, you fight each fight differently, depends to the situation and your opponent. these are like the different kinds of competition fights. > every fight, even streetfights, have rules and limits. < Maybe where you come from, they do. Some of us travel in places where practically everyone is armed, any fight can be a deadly affray, and the only dirty fight is the one you lose. The only "rule" in those places is that the first one to die, loses. ME: come on, your not talking to a girl in a bar. we know this, so lets talk like experts please! Another gross generalization mixed with uninformed speculation. Over my career, I've known many police, soldiers/sailors/Marines, and private citizens who've been in life or death fights. Most survived, most weren't involved in competitions prior to being involved in a fight, and most credit their training and luck with getting them through it. What soldiers have you been talking to? The cooks and bottlle washers? You know any Marine infantrymen who were in Fallujah, Iraq in November 2004? How about anyone from Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan in March 2002? ME: i know plenty, i use to be a soldier. whats your point? you know many people who been in life or death fights? sailors? come on! please look at my last comment....how did you get to meet so many people who fought to the death? and, yes, i do know people who been to iraq AND afghanistan. my point is, they did not have to shoot people in training, just like you dont STREETFIGHT in training. simulated combat is part of training--for all those "not realistic enough" people out there. You advise people to proffer challenges so, whom have you challenged? Anyone recognizable or noteworthy? The fact that you would make such statements says to me that you must be very good and have never lost. I know a few people in certain circles who've earned reputations as street fighters. Some of them read the ED. I'm very curious to know if any of them are counted on your list of lying, immature, cowards. Robert ME: first, answer this question. are you robert klampfer? in north carolina? im asking because i will be in raleigh this summer to teach. thank you for the compliment. if you know anyting about challenges and filipino culture, it is something you do one to one, not on the internet, and you talk about it face to face. maybe we will get to meet this summer when i come to NC, i'll tell you about my "challenges". sometimes, people been living behind teachers, reputations and computers too long. this is bad for the martial artists, because it makes the martial artist closet cowards, mouthy only in public, never face to face. so you have FMA people bad mouth each other in forms, magazine articles, and with their friends. you forget there is real people out there. sometimes you talk trash so much, you forget there's people out there who will back his trash up. this is one of the problems with "selling" martial arts. people learn to swing sticks, but not much more than that. and, too many people have rank that do not deserve it. if you dont agree with that, FMA is in bad shape. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:24:39 -0700 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Combatives against FMA From: Patrick Pace To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You will probably find that he feeds off drama and creating turmoil....opinions are like poo holes, everyone has one, some leak crap....LOL He probably wants everyone in the FMA community to ban his DVD's so he can call himself a Renegade....he's just trying to create hype for his product....ignore him but in a good way Patrick PS. those who are interested I am planning on bringing Datu Kelly Worden down for a seminar in Burbank/Los Angeles......anyone interested? Thinking of around July 28th...contact me for more details On Monday, June 25, 2007, at 08:32 AM, Michael Gallagher wrote: > At 03:38 PM 6/24/2007, you wrote: >> I want to forward this eMail from a guy that is promoting his DVDs >> by attempting to bad mouth FMA. >> Train hard and have fun! >> Dennis >> >> > ..... learning from >these conquered people is not the answer as >> it is clearly not a legitimate method of self >defense. Train Smart, >> Chris "Lt. X" Pizzo www.TopSecretTraining.com >> _______ > > Whatever. To each his own. Send him an e-mail that says "Thanks for > sharing." Other than that ... whatever. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:27:43 -0700 (PDT) From: tim To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA in Madison, WI Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'll be in Madison, WI for a business trip in a few weeks- can anyone recommend a school or instructor in the area? Thanks, Tim ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:37:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Kessler Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Combatives against FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Better still, read his website and marketing hyperbole. Have a beer first. And have a bottle of RID on hand - I hear it's good for nits... JK Michael Gallagher wrote: At 03:38 PM 6/24/2007, you wrote: > I want to forward this eMail from a guy that is promoting his DVDs by > attempting to bad mouth FMA. > Train hard and have fun! > Dennis > > > ..... learning from >these conquered people is not the answer as it > is clearly not a legitimate method of self >defense. Train Smart, Chris > "Lt. X" Pizzo www.TopSecretTraining.com >_______ Whatever. To each his own. Send him an e-mail that says "Thanks for sharing." Other than that ... whatever. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:58:55 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] three sayings Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net One of the gifts you can get from martial arts training is the ability to accurately size up a potential opponent... This discourages you from slugging it out with potential opponents who obviously are beneath you in terms of physical strength and technical skill...unless of course there's a sadist streak in your personality... =[:->] This also discourages you from slugging it out with potential opponents who obviously will beat the crap out of you... again, unless of course there's a masochist streak in your personality... =[:->] Inasmuch as the number of people who more or less are a perfect match for your strength and skills and at the same time will want to fight you will statistically be very few, you will be guaranteed a fight-free environment for the rest of your life... =[:->] > > Message: 7 > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: three saying (for maurice) > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:56:00 -0700 (PDT) > From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > > > you know, martial artists like to say "i am only training for > > streetfighting". > > Actually, I don't know too many martial artists that make that claim. For > better or worse, most martial artists that I know aren't all that focused > on streetfighting. > > > > a martial artist must face his fears, conquer them, and become convinced > > that no one can hurt him, if he ever wants to be able to be fearless on > > the street. > > I think not... The martial artist much face his/her fear so that they > will > NOT be fearless on the street. It is good to have fear. It is smart to > have > fear. Face your fear. Realize that there is good reason for fear. That > fear > may help you to live a bit longer. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > > > -- __--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima > > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com > Standard disclaimers apply. > Remember September 11. > > End of Eskrima Digest --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest