Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 02:58:52 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #209 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: karatefication or arnisification (Felipe Jocano) 2. Re: And in yet another effort to wrap up my participation in this discussion , , , (Beikoku Fighter) 3. Re: Kali Records (Felipe Jocano) 4. Royce roid positive (Ray) 5. Fun 4th (Ray) 6. KDO wins (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 04:11:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] karatefication or arnisification To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi James, That's interesting. I should start looking for books or videos about goshinjutsu no kata and how closely they resemble our empty-hand defense or combat judo. It should also be noted that at least here in Metro Manila, you will find schools using the word Combat in their signs. As in Combat Aikido, Combat Judo, Combat Karate. And even Combat Arnis. The reasons should be worth looking into... Bot --- "james jr. sy" wrote: > Hi Prof, > > Might be the Goshinjutsu kata of Kodokan Judo > which is more for self defense than for sports. > > If GM Lema was in Guam in the 1950s, he might have > also engaged in Judo and Aikido there. The Engr. > Ticao of Oton, the late “Paquit” Valencia Sensei of > Iloilo City, and a few others I forgot were working > in Guam during those years and were into JD and AKD. > Tohei Sensei visited their group a number of times. > In fact, it was in this group that Benjamin > Galarpe, “The Father of Philippine Aikido,” joined > in later times. > > Just my thoughts. > > James U. Sy Jr. > Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in > alternative vehicles. > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:54:07 -0700 From: "Beikoku Fighter" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] And in yet another effort to wrap up my participation in this discussion , , , Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I agree that Kali, the "word" or "martial art" have not been disproven. Throughout ALL martial art history no one ever has been "passed down" the complete truth technically or historically. No one alive today was there to hear the words of our martial ancestors. Dialects change. On a recent trip to Spain, my mothers Castillian was out of date she had a hard time understanding most Spaniards. Also, Southern Spain was occupied by the North Africans for 800 years (before the Spaniards took their turn at power) and my Grandfathers hometown of La Adrada was one of their strongholds. "Adrada" is not a Spanish word. It is debated but it is thought to be the name of a Berber tribe which spoke their dialects and rarely wrote them down. So non-native words get mixed into the languages and are not translatable. And in the case of the "word" Kali, if it turned out to be related to Spain in some way (as Escrima and Arnis are undeniably Spanish sounding) then one might also look towards an African connection for Kali as well. I personally think that Kali, the name of martial art is a combination from 2 separate words. Naming martial arts in this fashion is not uncommon. Kara Te, Ju Do... Names are created to serve a purpose and thats it. James Kovacich On 6/29/07, Marc Denny wrote: > > Greetings Sy: > > My only points are these: > > 1) The Mirafuentes/Yambao book serves as evidence that the term "Kali" was > used in the Philippines and is not "made up in America". I'm sorry that > the book does not cite sources, but that's life. I find the argument that > the book was influenced by some sort of Filipinos-in-Stockton conspiracy > to > be too convoluted to be persuasive for me, but to each his own. > > 2) To my understanding, Guro Inosanto's principal source for the use of > the > term "Kali" is GM Lacoste. This is not to say that Kali was a term of > his > native language. It is a term he acquired elsewhere-- somewhere in the > south is my understanding. It is my understanding that he did train with > Muslims in the south even though he was not a Muslim. Whether this was > known to his Muslim teachers I do not know. MY POINT IS NOT THAT THIS > CONSTITUTES PROOF. MY POINT IS THAT THIS LINE OF EVIDENCE HAS NOT BEEN > DISPROVEN-- and probably never can be. No doubt this is frustrating for > those who wish to obliterate the name Kali from the historical record, but > there it is. > > 3) GM Largusa's words on this subject are often ascribed to Guro Inosanto. > This is not precise. Guro I. quoted GM Largusa, which is not the same > thing. While we're at it, it is worth noting that the essays that began > the > book were by Gil Johnson not Guro Inosanto-- however it is Guro I's name > that is on the cover. > > As for your other questions, by all means carry on-- but it will need to > be > without me because I haven't a clue. > > The Adventure continues! > CD > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 04:04:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Records To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I once had the opportunity to email Dr. Ambeth Ocampo, probably one of the foremost Rizal historians and arguably one of the rare few who can make history come alive through his essays and columns in the Philippine Daily Inquirer. In my email, I asked him about the supposed connection between Rizal and arnis. He told me that as far as can be determined through the available evidence (diaries, essays, notes, etc.,) that Rizal left behind, the connection between him and arnis could not be proven. Interestingly for me, this does not mean that it could not be disproven either :-) What can be clearly determined from what is available is that he was an avid fencer, European fencing that is. Bot --- ed garcia wrote: > Why haven¢t the ultra mega patriotic Dr. Jose P. > Rizal, the national > hero of > the Philippines, mention Kali in any of his novels > which > depicted war, his > autobiographies, letters to his families, and other > documents? (I can > guarantee you there was none. Rizal was required > study in the elementary, > high school, and collegiate level of > Philippine education). > > For what it's > worth, in chapter 14 of El Filibusterismo, one line > reads "the continuous > clashing of the blades from the fencing lessons". In > the Tagalog translation > of the novel, this is written as eskrima and I would > venture that the original > Spanish text would also be written as escrima. > Whether Rizal was referring to > Spanish/European fencing or FMA is anybody's guess. > Just my $0.02. > _____________________________________________________________________________ > _______ > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and > hotels with > Yahoo! FareChase. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:42:15 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] Royce roid positive Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://blogs.chron.com/fighting/2007/06/gracie_tests_positive_for_ster.html Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:44:38 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] Fun 4th Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Have a safe and fun 4th of July, from sunny New England. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] KDO wins Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net KDO tops 12th Karambunal Peter L. Magbanua 2007-07-03 Mindanao Times Team Kapatirang Doble Olisi (KDO) tallied eight gold, seven silver and four bronze medals to claim the over-all title in last weekend’s 12th Karambunal sa Davao arnis tournament held over the weekend at the Victoria Plaza. KDO’s winner performance were courtesy of Dona Panes (secondary girl’s junior extra lightweight), Rommerl Jalit (junior secondary boys flyweight), Peter Babao (junior secondary boys finweight), Paulo dela Riarte (junior secondary boys bantamweight), Emmanuel Babao (junior secondary boys featherweight), Julius Almendras (junior secondary boys extra lightweight), Rey Labasa (senior men half middleweight), and Charlie Adtoon (senior men lightweight). The silver medals were hauled by Estrella Sapa (junior secondary girls extra lightweight), John Robert Garcia (junior secondary boys flyweight), Raymund Gempero (junior secondary boys bantamweight), Andrew Saavedra (junior secondary boys featherweight), Earl Dagsan (senior men half middleweight), Jose Sapar (senior men half lightweight), and Mark Abajero (senior men lightweight) while the bronze came from Niño Joy Barreña (senior men half middleweight), Irene Divinagracia (junior secondary girls extra lightweight), Nathaniel Babao (junior secondary boys bantamweight) and Jerick Avelino (junior secondary boys featherweight). Their performance placed closest rival Golden Shield in second over-all with six gold, eight silver and six bronze medals while Mandirigma Kaliradman came in third with one gold and four bronze medals. A total of 100 players from powerhouse Tacurong City, Mati, Davao Oriental, Digos, Tagum and host Davao City saw action in the event which had specially crafted medals given to the winners. The one-day event featured seven weight categories namely extra lightweight, half lightweight, lightweight, half middle weight, middle weight, half heavy weight and heavyweight divisions for players 19 years old and below and 19 years old and above. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest