Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:58:32 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #211 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fun 4th (Michael Gallagher) 2. Re: Kali Records (Red Gonzales) 3. Re: And in yet another effort to wrap up my participation in this discussion , , , (Red Gonzales) 4. Re: Fun 4th (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 22:10:55 -0400 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Michael Gallagher Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Fun 4th Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net At 03:44 PM 7/3/2007, you wrote: >Have a safe and fun 4th of July, from sunny New England. Thanks! Where in New England? I ask because I went to school in Maine and vacation there every August. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 05:06:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Red Gonzales Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Records To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ed Garcia is correct in his quote of the El Filibusterismo and the assumption that the art described was Eskrima, whether the Spanish or Filipino variety. Further bolstering the observation of James Sy that Rizal made no mention of Kali in any of his writings. Again, a historical fact that the Kali movement needs to refute. Red Gonzales Felipe Jocano wrote: I once had the opportunity to email Dr. Ambeth Ocampo, probably one of the foremost Rizal historians and arguably one of the rare few who can make history come alive through his essays and columns in the Philippine Daily Inquirer. In my email, I asked him about the supposed connection between Rizal and arnis. He told me that as far as can be determined through the available evidence (diaries, essays, notes, etc.,) that Rizal left behind, the connection between him and arnis could not be proven. Interestingly for me, this does not mean that it could not be disproven either :-) What can be clearly determined from what is available is that he was an avid fencer, European fencing that is. Bot --- ed garcia wrote: > Why haven¢t the ultra mega patriotic Dr. Jose P. > Rizal, the national > hero of > the Philippines, mention Kali in any of his novels > which > depicted war, his > autobiographies, letters to his families, and other > documents? (I can > guarantee you there was none. Rizal was required > study in the elementary, > high school, and collegiate level of > Philippine education). > > For what it's > worth, in chapter 14 of El Filibusterismo, one line > reads "the continuous > clashing of the blades from the fencing lessons". In > the Tagalog translation > of the novel, this is written as eskrima and I would > venture that the original > Spanish text would also be written as escrima. > Whether Rizal was referring to > Spanish/European fencing or FMA is anybody's guess. > Just my $0.02. > _____________________________________________________________________________ > _______ > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and > hotels with > Yahoo! FareChase. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://ph.mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 05:10:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Red Gonzales Subject: Re: [Eskrima] And in yet another effort to wrap up my participation in this discussion , , , To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net James Kovacich (a.k.a. British Fighter), Nothing in your post constituted convincing proof of the authenticity of kali. Could you offer any historical proof aside from mere conjecture? Countless concrete historical evidences had been given against kali but yet nothing significant and substantial for kali. Whilst the others failed to refute them, maybe you can, one by one. Yes, names are created to serve a purpose, to revise history would be one of them. Or to hype and market is another. Red Gonzales Beikoku Fighter wrote: I agree that Kali, the "word" or "martial art" have not been disproven. Throughout ALL martial art history no one ever has been "passed down" the complete truth technically or historically. No one alive today was there to hear the words of our martial ancestors. Dialects change. On a recent trip to Spain, my mothers Castillian was out of date she had a hard time understanding most Spaniards. Also, Southern Spain was occupied by the North Africans for 800 years (before the Spaniards took their turn at power) and my Grandfathers hometown of La Adrada was one of their strongholds. "Adrada" is not a Spanish word. It is debated but it is thought to be the name of a Berber tribe which spoke their dialects and rarely wrote them down. So non-native words get mixed into the languages and are not translatable. And in the case of the "word" Kali, if it turned out to be related to Spain in some way (as Escrima and Arnis are undeniably Spanish sounding) then one might also look towards an African connection for Kali as well. I personally think that Kali, the name of martial art is a combination from 2 separate words. Naming martial arts in this fashion is not uncommon. Kara Te, Ju Do... Names are created to serve a purpose and thats it. --------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://ph.mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Fun 4th To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 15:22:11 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >>Have a safe and fun 4th of July, from sunny New England. > > Thanks! > > Where in New England? I ask because I went to school in Maine and vacation > there every August. Newport, Rhode Island. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest