Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 02:58:34 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #212 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Kali and the Path of the Warrior (James Judy) 2. Re: Kali and Marc Denny (james jr. sy) 3. karatefication or arnisification (james jr. sy) 4. back in CA (Ray) 5. Eskrima Instruction in the Columbus/Central Ohio Area... (jamdawg1@peoplepc.com) 6. RE: Eskrima Instruction in the Columbus/Central Ohio Area... (junk) 7. Re: Eskrima Instruction in the Columbus/Central Ohio Area... (Guru Mike Casto) 8. August in Maine (geezer88@localnet.com) 9. Re: August in Maine (jo moran) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 13:32:47 -0700 (PDT) From: James Judy Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali and the Path of the Warrior To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You know, I was looking at the list for possible sources for the use of the word Kali in FMAs, & connected to Arnis & Eskrima. One point I wanted to make is that FMA Historians, I believe one of which was Mark Wiley, tracked the movement of Silat up into the Philippines from the Celebes or Borneo. Well, anyway, they noted that Silat came into the South Philippines some time back in antiquity. One of the trends for some of the Javanese styles of Silat is to have names like Tjimande, Tjikabon, Tjimatjan, & Tjikalong. The Tji- prefix means "river" or "water from the river", which is attached to the suffix of an animal name. With it being mentioned that Kali also means River in Malay, I just thought that the correlation beared some noting. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 03:27:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali and Marc Denny To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings Marc, Marc Denny’s points were: 1. The Mirafuentes/Yambao book serves as evidence that the term "Kali" was used in the Philippines and is not "made up in America". Without proper citation, the book did mention Kali but that would not constitute proof that Kali was indeed used in pre-Hispanic Philippines. Remember, Yambao’s book was published only in 1957 and no pre-Hispanic or Colonial documents made mention of Kali. Mirafuente himself only assumed, without historical or archaeological proof, that Kali was brought to the islands by the migrating Malays. Furthermore, I have pointed out the various historical flaws in Mirafuente’s piece. If he was mistaken in the dates and the other details, how could we hope that the information on Kali in the essay are indeed historically accurate. The argument that Kali existed in the Philippines just because the term was mentioned in the Yambao book, inspite of Mirafuente’s historical errors, is at best questionable and can not be taken as academic proof. Up to this point, no historical, literary, hoplological, archaeological, anthropological, and cultural proofs had been forwarded by the Kalistas for the historical validity, repeat historical authenticity, of the supposedly ancient term Kali. Kali as in “kamot lihok,” inspite of being Cebuano, was never traditionally used by the Cebuanos or any of the ethnic groups in the Philippines, more so by the Muslims in the South. Kamot lihok has been documented to first surface from JKD Kali. Eskrima is the term for FMA in Cebu. Mirafuente did mention Kali as an ancient name for FMA but did not say that Kali was 1. The Mother Art, 2. It was Muslim, 3. It was related to Silat, 4. It was the oldest form of weaponry in the Philippines, 5. It is mother to and is older to Escrima 6. It is the source from which all the Escrima styles developed 7. The other FMAs are all phases of Kali. These suppositions were first recorded in The Filipino Martial Arts. Kindly read Yambao’s book. ========== 2. Guro Inosanto's principal source for the use of the term "Kali" is GM Lacoste…It is a term he acquired elsewhere-- somewhere in the South…THIS LINE OF EVIDENCE HAS NOT BEEN DISPROVEN. It doesn’t matter if the term Kali was derived from GM Lacoste or Villabrille. The fact still remains Kali, as advertised as the Mother Art in the US, is not a historical reality in pre-Hispanic Philippines or even in today’s republic. Kali could have been derived from GM Lacoste but the question is, why is Guro Inosanto using the kamot lihok definition by GM Villabrille? Has not been disproven…simply because no specific details have been given. It would be very helpful if you can tell EDers: In what part of Mindanao did GM Lacoste train in Kali? From what ethnic language/dialect did he get the word Kali? Who was his teacher? Who was his teacher’s teacher? What was his teacher’s ethnic and religious background? What was the religion of GM Lacoste? Giving these details could easily back up your statement that GM LaCoste did train in Mindanao and the same can be checked. It is a known fact that Muslims have Silat and Kuntaw, not Kali and they only teach these to their family members. It is also a given that a Muslim will not teach his art to people outside of his family, more so to a Visayan, their no. 1 enemies during the Muslim wars in the Spanish Era. Your statement has not been disproven, at least not yet, but the countless counter proofs for the historicity of Kali forwarded have not been refuted satisfactorily by the Kalistas. More than a hundred proofs have already been given, left unanswered, simply because they are hard facts too difficult to be contorted. Unless solid historical proof can be forwarded to legitimize Kali there will always be debates on its authenticity, at least the name and its history. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Marc Denny wrote: Greetings Sy: My only points are these: 1) The Mirafuentes/Yambao book serves as evidence that the term "Kali" was used in the Philippines and is not "made up in America". I'm sorry that the book does not cite sources, but that's life. I find the argument that the book was influenced by some sort of Filipinos-in-Stockton conspiracy to be too convoluted to be persuasive for me, but to each his own. 2) To my understanding, Guro Inosanto's principal source for the use of the term "Kali" is GM Lacoste. This is not to say that Kali was a term of his native language. It is a term he acquired elsewhere-- somewhere in the south is my understanding. It is my understanding that he did train with Muslims in the south even though he was not a Muslim. Whether this was known to his Muslim teachers I do not know. MY POINT IS NOT THAT THIS CONSTITUTES PROOF. MY POINT IS THAT THIS LINE OF EVIDENCE HAS NOT BEEN DISPROVEN-- and probably never can be. No doubt this is frustrating for those who wish to obliterate the name Kali from the historical record, but there it is. 3) GM Largusa's words on this subject are often ascribed to Guro Inosanto. This is not precise. Guro I. quoted GM Largusa, which is not the same thing. While we're at it, it is worth noting that the essays that began the book were by Gil Johnson not Guro Inosanto-- however it is Guro I's name that is on the cover. As for your other questions, by all means carry on-- but it will need to be without me because I haven't a clue. The Adventure continues! CD --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 03:31:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] karatefication or arnisification Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Prof, A good place to start would be Kodokan Judo by Prof. Kano, Jigoro, published by Kodansha International Ltd., © 1986. Kodokan Judo Goshinjutsu no kata, established in 1958, is composed of 21 techniques (12 against an armed attacker, the remaining against an armed opponent - stick, knife, pistol). Aikidokas would recognize the nikkajo and the ikkajo (the judo interpretation) found in the kata. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 08:48:34 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] back in CA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sorry for the show list the past week. We're back home in sunny California again, so things should be returning to normal. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: To: Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 13:53:38 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Eskrima Instruction in the Columbus/Central Ohio Area... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello. I just joined to learn more about FMA. Can anyone please tell me if there are any Eskrima Instructors in the Columbus/Central Ohio Area? Thank You. George Ashburn - Reynoldsburg, Ohio USA http://www.angelfire.com/planet/jam-dawg/index.html http://www.myspace.com/georgeashburn http://www.myspace.com/coachwoodyhayes http://www.westervillebrownsbackers.com/ http://www.geocities.com/westsidersbb --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "junk" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Eskrima Instruction in the Columbus/Central Ohio Area... Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 15:40:25 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net There are at least three places that I know of: http://www.imb-columbus.com/ (where I train) http://www.teamhmac.com/ - Modern Arnis http://asianfightingarts.com/home/ I believe these guys have an instructor in Columbus -----Original Message----- From: jamdawg1@peoplepc.com [mailto:jamdawg1@peoplepc.com] Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 1:54 PM To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Eskrima Instruction in the Columbus/Central Ohio Area... Hello. I just joined to learn more about FMA. Can anyone please tell me if there are any Eskrima Instructors in the Columbus/Central Ohio Area? Thank You. George Ashburn - Reynoldsburg, Ohio USA http://www.angelfire.com/planet/jam-dawg/index.html http://www.myspace.com/georgeashburn http://www.myspace.com/coachwoodyhayes http://www.westervillebrownsbackers.com/ http://www.geocities.com/westsidersbb _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 15:06:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Guru Mike Casto Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Eskrima Instruction in the Columbus/Central Ohio Area... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Yes, we (Asian Fighting Arts) do have an instructor there in Columbus. His name is Steve Hacht. Very skillful, an excellent teacher, and he specializes in blade work. There's also Tre Hockett in Grove City - as far as I know, he's still actively teaching though I haven't talked to him in a couple of years. Of course, my first recommendation would be Guru Steve because he's my friend/brother so I have a bit of a bias there but Tony (at imb-columbus) and Tre are both good guys and good instructors. I think I've met Mr. McConnell (teamhmac) too - but I'm not sure. His lineage looks solid, though, so he's probably a safe bet. I would recommend checking them all out and seeing which one suits your tastes/personality/attitude the best. Mike ----- Original Message ---- From: junk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2007 3:40:25 PM Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Eskrima Instruction in the Columbus/Central Ohio Area... There are at least three places that I know of: http://www.imb-columbus.com/ (where I train) http://www.teamhmac.com/ - Modern Arnis http://asianfightingarts.com/home/ I believe these guys have an instructor in Columbus -----Original Message----- From: jamdawg1@peoplepc.com [mailto:jamdawg1@peoplepc.com] Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 1:54 PM To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Eskrima Instruction in the Columbus/Central Ohio Area... Hello. I just joined to learn more about FMA. Can anyone please tell me if there are any Eskrima Instructors in the Columbus/Central Ohio Area? Thank You. George Ashburn - Reynoldsburg, Ohio USA http://www.angelfire.com/planet/jam-dawg/index.html http://www.myspace.com/georgeashburn http://www.myspace.com/coachwoodyhayes http://www.westervillebrownsbackers.com/ http://www.geocities.com/westsidersbb _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 20:33:10 -0400 From: geezer88@localnet.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] August in Maine Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello to the list, also Michael Gallagher    If you are around Bridgton, Maine give me a hollar. I never get enough stick time since moving to back to Maine.                                      Bob Kobell geezer88@localnet.com[1] Links: ------ [1] mailto:geezer88@localnet.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 19:13:29 -0700 (PDT) From: jo moran Subject: Re: [Eskrima] August in Maine To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net used to live in maine there is a guy does/teaches sticks/jujitsu in sanford/shapleigh (name is frank) if you're near there. geezer88@localnet.com wrote: Hello to the list, also Michael Gallagher If you are around Bridgton, Maine give me a hollar. I never get enough stick time since moving to back to Maine. Bob Kobell geezer88@localnet.com[1] Links: ------ [1] mailto:geezer88@localnet.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest