Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 03:02:28 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #213 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: karatefication or arnisification (Felipe Jocano) 2. Re: Kali and Marc Denny (kali warrior) 3. Escrima Instruction in Central Ohio/Columbus Ohio (Brian Johns) 4. More Kali (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 02:31:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] karatefication or arnisification To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Pre-start technique: Step 1: find the book first Step 2: see if I can afford it Step 3: save the money for it Step 4: buy it and read it :-) Reality intrudes on our practice. Ah well... Bot --- "james jr. sy" wrote: > Hi Prof, > > A good place to start would be Kodokan Judo by > Prof. Kano, Jigoro, published by Kodansha > International Ltd., © 1986. > > Kodokan Judo Goshinjutsu no kata, established in > 1958, is composed of 21 techniques (12 against an > armed attacker, the remaining against an armed > opponent - stick, knife, pistol). Aikidokas would > recognize the nikkajo and the ikkajo (the judo > interpretation) found in the kata. > > > James U. Sy Jr. > Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for earth-friendly autos? > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' > Green Center. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 05:16:11 -0700 (PDT) From: kali warrior Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali and Marc Denny To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sy, May I offer some references If you try to read Arnis Lanada by Amante P. Marinas, it says, “Arnis evolved from kali, an ancient martial art practiced by early Filipinos. Kali, generally believed to have come from Indonesia, is a highly systemized form of fighting which was taught in tribal schools called bothoan prior to 1521." And in Pananandata by the same author, “Prior to 1610, kali was known by many names depending upon the dialect of the warrior. Kali was known as pananadata in Tagalog, pagakalikali in Ilbanag, kalirongan in Pangasinan, kaliradman in Visayas,…" "Indeed by 1853 the word kali had almost disappeared, replaced by the word "arnes" which later became "arnis" " "Kali was orginally practiced by the royalty of the Visayan and the Tagalog regions, by the Amandakwas of Pangasinan and the Baruwangs of Cagayan." GM Marinas is one of the most respected guros in the US. "james jr. sy" wrote: Greetings Marc, Marc Denny’s points were: 1. The Mirafuentes/Yambao book serves as evidence that the term "Kali" was used in the Philippines and is not "made up in America". Without proper citation, the book did mention Kali but that would not constitute proof that Kali was indeed used in pre-Hispanic Philippines. Remember, Yambao’s book was published only in 1957 and no pre-Hispanic or Colonial documents made mention of Kali. Mirafuente himself only assumed, without historical or archaeological proof, that Kali was brought to the islands by the migrating Malays. Furthermore, I have pointed out the various historical flaws in Mirafuente’s piece. If he was mistaken in the dates and the other details, how could we hope that the information on Kali in the essay are indeed historically accurate. The argument that Kali existed in the Philippines just because the term was mentioned in the Yambao book, inspite of Mirafuente’s historical errors, is at best questionable and can not be taken as academic proof. Up to this point, no historical, literary, hoplological, archaeological, anthropological, and cultural proofs had been forwarded by the Kalistas for the historical validity, repeat historical authenticity, of the supposedly ancient term Kali. Kali as in “kamot lihok,” inspite of being Cebuano, was never traditionally used by the Cebuanos or any of the ethnic groups in the Philippines, more so by the Muslims in the South. Kamot lihok has been documented to first surface from JKD Kali. Eskrima is the term for FMA in Cebu. Mirafuente did mention Kali as an ancient name for FMA but did not say that Kali was 1. The Mother Art, 2. It was Muslim, 3. It was related to Silat, 4. It was the oldest form of weaponry in the Philippines, 5. It is mother to and is older to Escrima 6. It is the source from which all the Escrima styles developed 7. The other FMAs are all phases of Kali. These suppositions were first recorded in The Filipino Martial Arts. Kindly read Yambao’s book. ========== 2. Guro Inosanto's principal source for the use of the term "Kali" is GM Lacoste…It is a term he acquired elsewhere-- somewhere in the South…THIS LINE OF EVIDENCE HAS NOT BEEN DISPROVEN. It doesn’t matter if the term Kali was derived from GM Lacoste or Villabrille. The fact still remains Kali, as advertised as the Mother Art in the US, is not a historical reality in pre-Hispanic Philippines or even in today’s republic. Kali could have been derived from GM Lacoste but the question is, why is Guro Inosanto using the kamot lihok definition by GM Villabrille? Has not been disproven…simply because no specific details have been given. It would be very helpful if you can tell EDers: In what part of Mindanao did GM Lacoste train in Kali? >From what ethnic language/dialect did he get the word Kali? Who was his teacher? Who was his teacher’s teacher? What was his teacher’s ethnic and religious background? What was the religion of GM Lacoste? Giving these details could easily back up your statement that GM LaCoste did train in Mindanao and the same can be checked. It is a known fact that Muslims have Silat and Kuntaw, not Kali and they only teach these to their family members. It is also a given that a Muslim will not teach his art to people outside of his family, more so to a Visayan, their no. 1 enemies during the Muslim wars in the Spanish Era. Your statement has not been disproven, at least not yet, but the countless counter proofs for the historicity of Kali forwarded have not been refuted satisfactorily by the Kalistas. More than a hundred proofs have already been given, left unanswered, simply because they are hard facts too difficult to be contorted. Unless solid historical proof can be forwarded to legitimize Kali there will always be debates on its authenticity, at least the name and its history. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Marc Denny wrote: Greetings Sy: My only points are these: 1) The Mirafuentes/Yambao book serves as evidence that the term "Kali" was used in the Philippines and is not "made up in America". I'm sorry that the book does not cite sources, but that's life. I find the argument that the book was influenced by some sort of Filipinos-in-Stockton conspiracy to be too convoluted to be persuasive for me, but to each his own. 2) To my understanding, Guro Inosanto's principal source for the use of the term "Kali" is GM Lacoste. This is not to say that Kali was a term of his native language. It is a term he acquired elsewhere-- somewhere in the south is my understanding. It is my understanding that he did train with Muslims in the south even though he was not a Muslim. Whether this was known to his Muslim teachers I do not know. MY POINT IS NOT THAT THIS CONSTITUTES PROOF. MY POINT IS THAT THIS LINE OF EVIDENCE HAS NOT BEEN DISPROVEN-- and probably never can be. No doubt this is frustrating for those who wish to obliterate the name Kali from the historical record, but there it is. 3) GM Largusa's words on this subject are often ascribed to Guro Inosanto. This is not precise. Guro I. quoted GM Largusa, which is not the same thing. While we're at it, it is worth noting that the essays that began the book were by Gil Johnson not Guro Inosanto-- however it is Guro I's name that is on the cover. As for your other questions, by all means carry on-- but it will need to be without me because I haven't a clue. The Adventure continues! CD --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 09:29:35 -0400 From: "Brian Johns" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Escrima Instruction in Central Ohio/Columbus Ohio Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net George, I would recommend Guro Dan McConnell in Hilliard. He's a good one and regularly brings in other instructors for seminars. His website is www.teamhmac.com I used to live in Columbus until I recently moved to Toronto with my wife. Good luck ! Take care, Brian Johns > > Message: 5 > From: > To: > Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 13:53:38 -0400 > Subject: [Eskrima] Eskrima Instruction in the Columbus/Central Ohio > Area... > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Hello. > > I just joined to learn more about FMA. > > Can anyone please tell me if there are any Eskrima Instructors in the > Columbus/Central Ohio Area? > > Thank You. > > George Ashburn - Reynoldsburg, Ohio USA > http://www.angelfire.com/planet/jam-dawg/index.html > http://www.myspace.com/georgeashburn > http://www.myspace.com/coachwoodyhayes > http://www.westervillebrownsbackers.com/ > http://www.geocities.com/westsidersbb --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 18:16:24 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] More Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > GM Marinas is one of the most respected guros in the US. And if you read Guro Marinas' posts in the list archives from May and June on this same topic you'll see his current views on the matter as well as those of many others. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest