Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:58:33 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #224 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: LaCoste and Kali (iPat) 2. Re: LaCoste and Kali (james jr. sy) 3. KALI, CANNIBALS, & BGDEBUQUE (james jr. sy) 4. Re: viking fighting (Kes41355@aol.com) 5. Re: LaCoste and Kali (Ray) 6. Re: KALI, CANNIBALS, & BGDEBUQU (Beikoku Fighter) 7. Re: LaCoste and Kali (Beikoku Fighter) 8. Re: what do you think? (Jon Broster) 9. Martial arts for Marines (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:11:52 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] LaCoste and Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Is there a timeline on that? In reference to an earlier comment where you wondered how often Guro Inosanto trained with Lacoste, he states in his video series that he trained in Stockton and in Los Angleles. For those who wanted to see Grandmaster Largusa's essay: http://inosanto.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=14&Itemid=51 On 7/22/07, Ray wrote: > I received a phone call this evening from Manong Al Concepcion. ..........> So it seems we cannot place the early use of kali with LaCoste. He may > have picked it up later, but early on he did not use the name kali to > describe his art. > -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 04:21:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] LaCoste and Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net After a long silence, it’s wonderful that a very important clue to the Kali mystery had been uncovered. LaCoste’s use of Kali can be placed after 1977 since in the Filipino Martial Arts he was not associated with the term and although it was Johnson’s write up, it would be highly unlikely that the real name of his art would be left out. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Ray wrote: I received a phone call this evening from Manong Al Concepcion. It was good to hear from him. He had been traveling for several months out of the country. Being one of the earliest eskrima students in Stockton, he not only studied under Angel Cabales but also under Johnny LaCoste. Al indicated that Johnny did not call his art Kali. He just called it eskrima and/or kuntao silat. Later when others came to him to learn he also picked up the term kali and began to use that name also. So it seems we cannot place the early use of kali with LaCoste. He may have picked it up later, but early on he did not use the name kali to describe his art. --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 04:45:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] KALI, CANNIBALS, & BGDEBUQUE Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Good day Bill, QUOTING BGDEBUQUE: Someday you can perhaps demonstrate to us how to behead someone with a Spear and a shield... =[:->] END OF QUOTE Just trying to humor hard facts eh? Nice try but how can Tjakalele be the predecessor of Kali when it uses spears and shields while Kali uses a blade? Tjakalele is a war dance and is not a martial art. Both have a martial nature but one is for dancing, the other is for fighting. How can you derive a martial art from a martial dance? And presuming that happened, what “combat experience” can a dance transfer to a martial art? Even a non-martial artist can figure that one out. QUOTING BGDEBUQUE: It reminds me of the secret agent who likes to distribute his "secret agent" calling card... =[:->] Before its discovery at the confessional by a priest, the Katipunan also used to be a secret society. I am inclined to believe that a secret society which gets published will automatically cease to be one... =[:->] END OF QUOTE If it’s a secret society, why do you know of it? Yah, reminds me of Kalistas, who after being presented with research data by Americans who did research in the Philippines about Kali, have nothing to say except that Kali is a secret and why would the natives divulge it to a foreigner they do not know, and that Kali can’t be found in the cities but in the interiors of the mountains. Those may be good points until we realize that Kali tapes are spread all over the USA. It should be secret, shouldn’t it be? QUOTING BGDEBUQUE: The Goddess Kali of Hindus is depicted as someone holding a sword on One hand and the head of a demon on the other hand. He also sucks the blood of slain demons on the battlefield. Should Hindus also do the same practice?.... =[:->] END OF QUOTE You had associated Kali with headhunters and cannibals, haven’t you? It seems like you yourself are contradicting yourself. Make up your mind. And BTW, Kali is SHE, not a HE and she’s a Goddess, not a martial art. I just really have to repeat the question for you, ever heard of a Cannibal Muslim? Doesn’t make sense. QUOTING BGDEBUQUE: Now this is a slip on your part. As I remember it, it was you all along who had posted several times the phrase "Kali is Muslim". If indeed I have written the same, kindly repost what I have written... =[:->] I have only tried to establish 3 "connections" to Kali - the Indian one (Hindu through Kalaripayattu); the Indonesian one (Buddhist/Hindu thu Sri-Wijaya and animist thru the Tjakalele war dance of the Moluccas), and; the Philippine one through Kalinga (the Ibanag and Gaddang term for headhunters). END OF QUOTE It was Guro Inosanto who said Kali was Muslim. Since we are reconstructing things here, we try to piece together the different information and proofs forwarded by the different sectors but then it just shows how weak the historical foundation of Kali is. The mere fact that both your and Guro Inosanto’s facts contradict would show there are things that are not right. Add to them revelations from other Kalistas and you just end up with more confusion than answers. If Kali did exist Bgdebuque, might as well give us CONCRETE, SOLID, VALID, LEGITIMATE, and TRUE proofs rather than conjectures and assumptions. But I doubt you’ve got it. It’s nearly 3 months now since this thread started and still nothing. All you have forwarded by far are conjectures with no valid historical proof, mostly taken out of Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia that can be edited by anybody, even by you. That wouldn’t make research sense. Both Dr. Nepangue and Macachor did forward a hypothesis and they backed it up with historical proof. Up to this point, no one had successfully demolished that hypothesis. Would be a good thing if you can do the same. At least skeptics like me can be convinced too. QUOTING BGDEBUQUE: BTW in the opening sentences of Donn Draeger's Moluccas chapter he also wrote that according to the Moluccas elders he had interviewed, based on oral tradition, the ancestors of Moluccans originally came from Malabar, India. END OF QUOTE That is what’s called manipulation of historical data, at least on your part. What Draeger wrote was that they came from India. Draeger did not write that Kali came from India. The interpretation that Kali came from India just simply because the ancestors came from India is your own conjecture. It’s like saying that since many Chinese immigrated in ancient Philippines, then we can say that FMA came from Kung fu or China. Doesn’t make sense putting words into Draeger’s mouth. Or at least in a futile attempt to legitimize the name Kali. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:52:02 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: viking fighting Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Checked this site out this morning...man, "Grandmaster Sven" is one sick puppy. Where do they keep coming from? Kim Satterfield Midwest School of Eskrima (not the cheerleader girls, GM Sven, this is the real stuff) In a message dated 7/24/2007 7:13:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: http://www.vikingfighting.com/ ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour --__--__-- Message: 5 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] LaCoste and Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:13:54 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Is there a timeline on that? I'm guessing late 1960s, early 70s for Al. Al trained with Johnny prior to Danny getting involved. Danny would usually work out with Johnny, Al and others when he came to Stockton to visit his mom. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:23:59 -0700 From: "Beikoku Fighter" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI, CANNIBALS, & BGDEBUQU Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It has happened and interesting enough somewhere around the same time period. http://www.capoeirasj.com/history/index.html On 7/24/07, james jr. sy wrote: > > Tjakalele is a war dance and is not a martial art. Both have a martial > nature but one is for dancing, the other is for fighting. *How can you > derive a martial art from a martial dance? And presuming that happened, > what "combat experience" can a dance transfer to a martial art? * Even a > non-martial artist can figure that one out. > > QUOTING BGDEBUQUE: > It reminds me of the secret agent who likes to distribute his "secret > agent" calling card... =[:->] Before its discovery at the confessional by > a priest, the Katipunan also used to be a secret society. I am inclined to > believe that a secret society which gets published will automatically cease > to be one... =[:->] > END OF QUOTE > > If it's a secret society, why do you know of it? > > Yah, reminds me of Kalistas, who after being presented with research data > by Americans who did research in the Philippines about Kali, have nothing to > say except that Kali is a secret and why would the natives divulge it to a > foreigner they do not know, and that Kali can't be found in the cities but > in the interiors of the mountains. Those may be good points until we > realize that Kali tapes are spread all over the USA. It should be secret, > shouldn't it be? > > QUOTING BGDEBUQUE: > The Goddess Kali of Hindus is depicted as someone holding a sword on > One hand and the head of a demon on the other hand. He also sucks the > blood of slain demons on the battlefield. Should Hindus also do the same > practice?.... =[:->] > END OF QUOTE > > You had associated Kali with headhunters and cannibals, haven't you? It > seems like you yourself are contradicting yourself. Make up your mind. And > BTW, Kali is SHE, not a HE and she's a Goddess, not a martial art. > > I just really have to repeat the question for you, ever heard of a > Cannibal Muslim? Doesn't make sense. > > QUOTING BGDEBUQUE: > Now this is a slip on your part. As I remember it, it was you all > along who had posted several times the phrase "Kali is Muslim". If > indeed I have written the same, kindly repost what I have written... =[:->] > I have only tried to establish 3 "connections" to Kali - the Indian one > (Hindu through Kalaripayattu); the Indonesian one (Buddhist/Hindu thu > Sri-Wijaya and animist thru the Tjakalele war dance of the Moluccas), > and; the Philippine one through Kalinga (the Ibanag and Gaddang term for > headhunters). > END OF QUOTE > > It was Guro Inosanto who said Kali was Muslim. Since we are > reconstructing things here, we try to piece together the different > information and proofs forwarded by the different sectors but then it just > shows how weak the historical foundation of Kali is. The mere fact that > both your and Guro Inosanto's facts contradict would show there are things > that are not right. Add to them revelations from other Kalistas and you > just end up with more confusion than answers. > > If Kali did exist Bgdebuque, might as well give us CONCRETE, SOLID, VALID, > LEGITIMATE, and TRUE proofs rather than conjectures and assumptions. But I > doubt you've got it. It's nearly 3 months now since this thread started and > still nothing. > > All you have forwarded by far are conjectures with no valid historical > proof, mostly taken out of Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia that can be > edited by anybody, even by you. That wouldn't make research sense. > > Both Dr. Nepangue and Macachor did forward a hypothesis and they backed it > up with historical proof. Up to this point, no one had successfully > demolished that hypothesis. Would be a good thing if you can do the > same. At least skeptics like me can be convinced too. > > QUOTING BGDEBUQUE: > BTW in the opening sentences of Donn Draeger's Moluccas chapter he also > wrote that according to the Moluccas elders he had interviewed, based > on oral tradition, the ancestors of Moluccans originally came from > Malabar, India. > END OF QUOTE > > That is what's called manipulation of historical data, at least on your > part. > > What Draeger wrote was that they came from India. > > Draeger did not write that Kali came from India. > > The interpretation that Kali came from India just simply because the > ancestors came from India is your own conjecture. It's like saying that > since many Chinese immigrated in ancient Philippines, then we can say that > FMA came from Kung fu or China. > > Doesn't make sense putting words into Draeger's mouth. Or at least in a > futile attempt to legitimize the name Kali. > > James U. Sy Jr. > Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:34:20 -0700 From: "Beikoku Fighter" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] LaCoste and Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It seems that Grandmaster Largusa's "word" as stated here http://inosanto.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=14&Itemid=51 predates those that rare to disprove Kali the art. It does make sense that the if there is or was a mother art or "forerunner" art, that it would not have a Spanish sounding name. James Kovacich On 7/24/07, iPat wrote: > > Is there a timeline on that? > In reference to an earlier comment where you wondered how often Guro > Inosanto trained with Lacoste, he states in his video series that he > trained in Stockton and in Los Angleles. > > For those who wanted to see Grandmaster Largusa's essay: > > http://inosanto.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=14&Itemid=51 > > > On 7/22/07, Ray wrote: > > I received a phone call this evening from Manong Al > Concepcion. ..........> So it seems we cannot place the early use of kali > with LaCoste. He may > > have picked it up later, but early on he did not use the name kali to > > describe his art. > > > > > -- > Pat Davies > www.amag.org.uk > Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:11:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Jon Broster Subject: Re: [Eskrima] what do you think? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi I trained under Richard de Bordes for about 7 years (only stopped because of family commitments, and then a bad knee injury) He can do it!! I have a friend who won a silver medal at the European BJJ championships who used to tell me to "Take him down, tap him out!" not a chance. Training under Richard involves lots of fighting, so the students really know how do it and the system is so simple, there is no lingering doubt in your mind as to whether or not it works. The last time I trained with Richard I caught one of his instructors in a front head chancery (guilotine choke). The guy was a lot smaller than me and could not get out, so he asked Richard what to do. The answer was simple - 1.Do not try to wrestle this man (me), he is a wrestler. 2.But if he gets you again do this; with which he shoulder pressed me (I'm around 190 lbs) whilst holding my testicles, dropped me over his head, turned and dropped on me in Satu Kuda (shin across my throat). Well worth checking out. Jon Subject: [Eskrima] what do you think? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net what do you guys think of this silat clip? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-OckbTj_18&mode=related&search= Jye "There's nothing more dangerous than a blunt knife" http://www.pecahan.net --__--__-- Message: 9 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:55:03 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] Martial arts for Marines Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Fowarding... http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htinf/articles/20070723.aspx Now Mandatory For Marines To Master Martial Arts July 23, 2007: The U.S. Marine Corps now requires all its troops qualify for the lowest level belt (tan) of its six year old martial arts program. That goal was to have been achieved three years ago, but proved more difficult than anticipated. The marine martial arts effort is a program of well, street fighting. The Martial Arts Training Program is taught like most other martial arts, allowing for degrees of proficiency, and colored belts to indicate how far a marine has gone from tan (the lowest level) to grey, green, brown and black (the highest.) The marine program is notable for elements that accurately represent actual combat conditions. For example, before doing the actual combat fighting, trainers wear the marines out with vigorous physical exercise. In combat you are likely to encounter the enemy face to face only after a lot of running around. Another realism element is the random introduction into the training area of items that could be used as weapons (a knife, pipe, piece of lumber). These realism touches make the Marine Corps Martial Arts Training Program popular and effective. The fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan has reinforced the importance of this program. So all marine infantry must achieve the green belt by the end of 2008. All combat support marines must get the grey belt by early 2009. The first (tan) belt only requires about 28 hours of training, but the others need more (from 47 to 72 hours for each level). And, you have to be in very good shape to even get started on the tan belt. But the skills obtained have proved to be lifesavers, especially in raids and search operations, where a nearby civilian often turns into an armed hostile on very short notice. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest