Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 02:58:30 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #252 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Mark Wiley Seminars in England (Felipe Jocano) 2. Re: Mark Wiley (Kes41355@aol.com) 3. Re: NG and Bob Spour and open hand techniques (iPat) 4. Jack Santos (Eric Taimanglo) 5. Re: Re: Mark Wiley (Felipe Jocano) 6. (no subject) (Keith Slatoff (SP FTA)) 7. Re: Re: Mark Wiley (Ray) 8. RE: Jack Santos (Jeremiah Hosch) 9. Charity auction on eBay (B Katz) 10. Re: Re: Manong Lacoste and Kali (Steve Kohn) 11. NG and Bob Spour and open-handed techniques (Michael Koblic) 12. Re: Charity auction on eBay (Jonathan Kessler) 13. Re: Re: Manong Lacoste and Kali (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:52:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Mark Wiley Seminars in England To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, This also touches upon your later response concerning the claims I'm talking about... I joined the list way after these issues about Mark came out here. So, I'm clueless about what you posted. Hence my request for additional information re the basis for your statement about his pretense, etc. I know Mark personally also, and while I believe he can defend himself in a forum like this if he wants to, I am well and truly ignorant about this particular issue. I am not certain if you mean that things are truly self-evident, but since I don't know nuthin' about nuthin' (and I truly mean that), I would really like to know some details. If they can't be shared over this list, maybe off-list? Curiousity bump itching madly... Bot --- Ray wrote: > > ... I read here and > > there about Mark, both negative and positive and > in > > this case, since a statement has been written > about > > his motives and actions, I am really curious as to > the > > basis for the statement, especially the part about > the > > pretense in order to obtain the inheritor title. > > I'm not sure what more can be said that hasn't > already been said. > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:57:04 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Mark Wiley Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, The source for these claims is Mark Wiley himself...he declared himself "Master" of Cabales Serrada Eskrima after Angel Cabales gave him the certificate, and he also claims to have knowledge given to him by Angel (Cabales Serrada "secrets") that Angel did not give to his earlier generation of students. Yes, Angel did give him a Masters certificate, but Vincent Cabales himself said that the intention was for each of these "Masters" to grow into the rank, and to continue training, as was his father's wish (on matters concerning the accuracy of Angel Cabales and his art, I respectfully defer to Vincent. I mean, the man would know). Vincent has stated emphatically that he has offered to continue their training in order for them to fit the rank, so to speak, but I know of no one who has taken his offer. If this were to happen, it would be common knowledge in the Serrada community, and Vincent himself has said several times that none of the later masters that Angel promoted have contacted him to continue training (if I am wrong here, I will gladly retract this statement). I also remember reading an interview conducted with Wiley in which he said he would no longer teach or be associated with Cabales Serrada Eskrima, due to the nature of the politics of Cabales Serrada. So, there you have it. We are just quoting Wiley. Kim Satterfield In a message dated 8/20/2007 7:12:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: What's the source for these claims about Mark Wiley? ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:26:45 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] NG and Bob Spour and open hand techniques Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On 8/19/07, Michael Koblic wrote: I understand that for > professionals this is a way to protect hands for the transition to weapons. > However, I often wondered if this is somewhat of a trade-off. A few problems of punching to the face: tooth cuts - leads to infection broken bones - leads to abstinence trauma to the face - leads to evidence Its not just about transition to weaponry. Our hands are our tools and if they are impaired it affects our livlihood. Any of the three mentioned above would affect me financially and emotionally. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:18:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Taimanglo To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Jack Santos Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I remember reading in Dan Inosanto's "Absorb what is useful" about a one Jack Santos; he says that after a initial brusque introduction, he served as an adviser in his Academy. I'd like to hear from anyone who was training at the IMB at that time who has anything to share about this man. What kind of advice did he give, any interesting anecdotes, etc. That aside, anyone in LSA Anaconda, Iraq care to smack sticks? Eric Taimanglo --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:04:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Mark Wiley To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Kim, As I've posted earlier, I really don't know nuthin' about nuthin'. Yes I know the man personally. I've heard his side. Now I hear another side of the story. Well, okay that's issues you guys in the serrada community have with him, so after hearing you, and knowing what he had to say, out of respect for all of you serrada guys, I won't comment further about it. What I'm still curious about, though, is what Ray said about Mark and GM Binas and Binas arnis. Details? Clarifications?? Any enlightenment for this poor benighted list member??? Bot --- Kes41355@aol.com wrote: > Hi, > The source for these claims is Mark Wiley > himself...he declared himself > "Master" of Cabales Serrada Eskrima after Angel > Cabales gave him the certificate, > and he also claims to have knowledge given to him by > Angel (Cabales Serrada > "secrets") that Angel did not give to his earlier > generation of students. > Yes, Angel did give him a Masters certificate, but > Vincent Cabales himself said > that the intention was for each of these "Masters" > to grow into the rank, > and to continue training, as was his father's wish > (on matters concerning the > accuracy of Angel Cabales and his art, I > respectfully defer to Vincent. I > mean, the man would know). Vincent has stated > emphatically that he has offered > to continue their training in order for them to fit > the rank, so to speak, but > I know of no one who has taken his offer. If this > were to happen, it would > be common knowledge in the Serrada community, and > Vincent himself has said > several times that none of the later masters that > Angel promoted have contacted > him to continue training (if I am wrong here, I > will gladly retract this > statement). > > I also remember reading an interview conducted with > Wiley in which he said > he would no longer teach or be associated with > Cabales Serrada Eskrima, due to > the nature of the politics of Cabales Serrada. > > So, there you have it. We are just quoting Wiley. > > Kim Satterfield > > > In a message dated 8/20/2007 7:12:13 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, > eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > What's the source for these claims about Mark > Wiley? > > > > > > > > ************************************** Get a sneak > peek of the all-new AOL at > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:09:55 -0500 From: "Keith Slatoff (SP FTA)" To: Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Check it out... Inmates in a prison Cebu, Philippines. Is this rehabilitation or punishment? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnk7lh9M3o Keith Slatoff Associate Store Team Leader Whole Foods Market Ft. Apache 8855 W. Charleston Blvd. Las Vegas, NV 89117 702-254-8655 This message may contain confidential and proprietary information. If it has been sent to you in error, please reply to advise the sender of the error and then immediately delete this message. --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Mark Wiley To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:05:35 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > What I'm still curious about, though, is what Ray said > about Mark and GM Binas and Binas arnis. Details? > Clarifications?? Any enlightenment for this poor > benighted list member??? I pulled all of Mark's books out of my library to do a look-see, and yes, I see where you do know Mark... :) I'm thinking now that he made these claims in an interview someone did with him instead of something he authored himself. I used to keep all those old magazines for times just like this, but now all I keep are the books. Quickly looking several of Mark's books reminded me of another issue that the CSE group has with him. The "Letter of Permit for Mark Wiley" that appears in The Secrets of Cabales Serrada Escrima and which again appears as a foreward in Filipino Martial Arts, Cabales Serrada Escrima are claimed to have been written by Angel. Apparently Angel did not write them, nor did he review and approve them. That according to Angel's son, Vincent Cabales. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Jeremiah Hosch" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Jack Santos Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:28:06 -0500 Organization: Strategic Defense Systems Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, Do you still have a copy of Dan's book absorb what is useful? And would you be willing to sell? JJ Hosch -----Original Message----- From: Eric Taimanglo [mailto:aresattendant@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:18 AM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Jack Santos I remember reading in Dan Inosanto's "Absorb what is useful" about a one Jack Santos; he says that after a initial brusque introduction, he served as an adviser in his Academy. I'd like to hear from anyone who was training at the IMB at that time who has anything to share about this man. What kind of advice did he give, any interesting anecdotes, etc. That aside, anyone in LSA Anaconda, Iraq care to smack sticks? Eric Taimanglo --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:15:39 -0700 (PDT) From: B Katz To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Charity auction on eBay Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just wanted to pass on some info about an auction co-sponsored by Guro Kim Satterfield of the Midwest School of Eskrima and myself. Please stop by and help us raise a little money for the family of a fallen kareteka. She was 11 and dropped from a heart failure while here in the States. The whole story is posted with the auction. Thanks to all. Brandon www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:50:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Manong Lacoste and Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I'm nearly a month late in responding to this but I have to quote the musician Elvis Costello. He was talking about music in his quote...but I think it applies to all of the arts. He said: "Talking about music is like dancing about architecture". I take this to mean that anything other than actually doing your art is really just B.S. Take it with a grain of salt of course as discussing philosophy is indeed imortant, but at the end of the day...JUST DO IT (I hope Nike doesn't sue me for this). Frank Zappa was even more to the point: "Shut up and play your guitar (or swing your stick - my addendum). I tend to use english terminology more often than not when I teach these days. The Inosanto/Lacoste base that I came up through draws from so many sources and dialects that trying to be faithful to all of them is really just confusing to new students. Additionally, I hate to butcher the languages of other cultures. I'd rather just give credit to the entire country by referring to what we do as "FMAs" I think the below points by Kim and Michael are dead on BTW If i missed the point...nevermind. Be well everyone. Steve Kohn Torrance, CA Michael Gallagher wrote: At 10:36 AM 7/25/2007, you wrote: >.... I have to admit, though, that in all this discussion about the >origins and >legitimacy of the usage of the word "Kali", I am a bit confused on why >this is >an issue (no disrespect intended toward any contributors to this >discussion) .... The word "Kali" >didn't just come out of thin air; I do believe Dan when he says that he >learned >of the term from his teachers and predecessors. I learned a lot of the >history of the Filipino arts, particularly the development of the >arts here in >America, from Dan, and my take on all this is that "Kali" is a term that >came >down from Floro Villabrille and Ben Largusa, and was the term given to the >conglomeration that Villibrille developed from his travels and studies, and >passed down to Largusa. I don't have a problem at all with the >term.....In my opinion, Dan, as well as >Villabrille and Largusa, can call their art anything they want. To me, >these >guys are at the top of the mountain, and concerning matters on their art, I >will defer to them. What the art is called isn't as important to me as the >content of the art. But then again, I'm a pragmatic sort of person, and >substance >over symbolism has always been my priority. > >Kim Satterfield >Midwest School of Eskrima > AMEN! And as to the question of whether the word Kali was used 400 years ago, ok, maybe it wasn't. It wouldn't be the first time a martial art changed names; karate-do springs to mind. The art still existed even if we can not agree on what it may have been called at the time. Beyond that, I prefer to go along with a very wise man who once said, "I'd rather practice." Respects, Michael Gallagher Cortland, New York USA _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:53:30 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] NG and Bob Spour and open-handed techniques Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bob Spour has written (via Pat Davies :-) "Bob Spour here! I am currently teaching at Pat's gym in Scotland and he just showed me your post. Thanks for your kind comments about my work. In my experience the open palm is stronger, safer and more effective than any of the closed fist techniques available. " Thanks. You have essentially confirmed what I heard. One has to wonder why these techniques are not used more widely. In a common-or-garden brawl one usually sees fists rather than open hands. Yet you yourself say that open hands are easier to train. Is it some sort of primal atavistic instinct? Is it the concern of the extra reach of a fist over a palm heel strike? But that would not really apply to the circular techniques you seem to prefer as the "conversation opener". Is there a God in the details? For instance, do most people when using the open hand, strike with the distal portion of the palm and fingers (where the power is rapidly dissipated) rather than the proximal portion (the heel) which should deliver almost all the power generated by the body turn into the target even better than a closed fist? Is it the targeting, i.e. most people when striking with the open hand slap the cheek rather hitting the jaw below (as I believe you advocate in your video)? After all, if one hit the cheek with the fist, knockout is less likely than if the targeting is correct. And so on. I am sure a CSF leak is a small price to pay for answers to all these questions :-) Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC P.S. You need to make a DVD on the head manipulation. With details, multiple views and slow motion, please! P.P.S. I am supposed to ask: Were you in the TV series with Sgt. Eddie Stone? --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:45:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Kessler Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Charity auction on eBay To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I will add that the link for the fundraiser auction is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150153144641 JK B Katz wrote: Just wanted to pass on some info about an auction co-sponsored by Guro Kim Satterfield of the Midwest School of Eskrima and myself. Please stop by and help us raise a little money for the family of a fallen kareteka. She was 11 and dropped from a heart failure while here in the States. The whole story is posted with the auction. Thanks to all. Brandon www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 13 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Manong Lacoste and Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:49:06 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I'm nearly a month late in responding to this but I have to quote the > musician Elvis Costello. He was talking about music in his quote...but I > think it applies to all of the arts. He said: "Talking about music is like > dancing about architecture". There is very little music heard when one visits www.elviscostello.info. You mostly just see words and pictures... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest