Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 02:58:37 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #253 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Manong Lacoste and Kali (jay de leon) 2. Re: Re: Mark Wiley (Felipe Jocano) 3. Re: Re: Mark Wiley (Ray) 4. Re: Mark Wiley (Afern27@aol.com) 5. Re: NG and Bob Spour and open-handed techniques (iPat) 6. Re: FYI (Ray) 7. Re: Mark Wiley (Jon Broster) 8. fundraising auction (Kristine Strasburger) 9. Larry Hartsell (Ray) 10. Re: Re: Mark Wiley (Ray) 11. Re: fundraising auction (B Katz) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 00:16:08 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Manong Lacoste and Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Y'all are cool, even though y'all keep arguing FOR something that nobody is arguing AGAINST. In fact, both GP Abon Baet and I singled out the Inosanto people and gave them props for defending what they learned from their guro. Also, while it is true that it is extremely difficult if not impossible to describe the essence of arnis in words, like music, what is wrong with having an intelligent discussion about the cultural, philosophical and historical background and origin of arnis as the art, or the etymology of arnis terms themselves? On the other hand, I don't remember anybody posting that talking about it is far more beneficial and enlightening than swinging the sticks themselves. To my kapatid Abon, James Sy and Rocky, I swear, I AM NOT trying to start the thread again. Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com Steve Kohn wrote: Hi all, I'm nearly a month late in responding to this but I have to quote the musician Elvis Costello. He was talking about music in his quote...but I think it applies to all of the arts. He said: "Talking about music is like dancing about architecture". I take this to mean that anything other than actually doing your art is really just B.S. Take it with a grain of salt of course as discussing philosophy is indeed imortant, but at the end of the day...JUST DO IT (I hope Nike doesn't sue me for this). Frank Zappa was even more to the point: "Shut up and play your guitar (or swing your stick - my addendum). I tend to use english terminology more often than not when I teach these days. The Inosanto/Lacoste base that I came up through draws from so many sources and dialects that trying to be faithful to all of them is really just confusing to new students. Additionally, I hate to butcher the languages of other cultures. I'd rather just give credit to the entire country by referring to what we do as "FMAs" I think the below points by Kim and Michael are dead on BTW If i missed the point...nevermind. Be well everyone. Steve Kohn Torrance, CA Michael Gallagher wrote: At 10:36 AM 7/25/2007, you wrote: >.... I have to admit, though, that in all this discussion about the >origins and >legitimacy of the usage of the word "Kali", I am a bit confused on why >this is >an issue (no disrespect intended toward any contributors to this >discussion) .... The word "Kali" >didn't just come out of thin air; I do believe Dan when he says that he >learned >of the term from his teachers and predecessors. I learned a lot of the >history of the Filipino arts, particularly the development of the >arts here in >America, from Dan, and my take on all this is that "Kali" is a term that >came >down from Floro Villabrille and Ben Largusa, and was the term given to the >conglomeration that Villibrille developed from his travels and studies, and >passed down to Largusa. I don't have a problem at all with the >term.....In my opinion, Dan, as well as >Villabrille and Largusa, can call their art anything they want. To me, >these >guys are at the top of the mountain, and concerning matters on their art, I >will defer to them. What the art is called isn't as important to me as the >content of the art. But then again, I'm a pragmatic sort of person, and >substance >over symbolism has always been my priority. > >Kim Satterfield >Midwest School of Eskrima > AMEN! And as to the question of whether the word Kali was used 400 years ago, ok, maybe it wasn't. It wouldn't be the first time a martial art changed names; karate-do springs to mind. The art still existed even if we can not agree on what it may have been called at the time. Beyond that, I prefer to go along with a very wise man who once said, "I'd rather practice." Respects, Michael Gallagher Cortland, New York USA _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 01:23:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Mark Wiley To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, Ah...And the basis for saying he made false promises to GM Binas in order to get the inheritor title are...? Interviews with him? Subsequent actions?? Did GM Binas disavow him? Because there has to be a basis for the statement that he made false promises to his teacher... Again please excuse my curiousity inasmuch as I'm still a benighted listmember :-) Curiousity bump reddening with itch...:-) Bot --- Ray wrote: > > What I'm still curious about, though, is what Ray > said > > about Mark and GM Binas and Binas arnis. Details? > > Clarifications?? Any enlightenment for this poor > > benighted list member??? > > I pulled all of Mark's books out of my library to do > a look-see, and > yes, I see where you do know Mark... :) > > I'm thinking now that he made these claims in an > interview someone > did with him instead of something he authored > himself. I used to keep > all those old magazines for times just like this, > but now all I keep > are the books. > > Quickly looking several of Mark's books reminded me > of another issue > that the CSE group has with him. The "Letter of > Permit for Mark Wiley" > that appears in The Secrets of Cabales Serrada > Escrima and which again > appears as a foreward in Filipino Martial Arts, > Cabales Serrada Escrima > are claimed to have been written by Angel. > Apparently Angel did not > write them, nor did he review and approve them. > That according to > Angel's son, Vincent Cabales. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/ --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Mark Wiley To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:27:56 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Curiousity bump reddening with itch...:-) > > Bot At this point I suggest you see a Doctor about that red bump as it seems nothing said here will help you in that regard. :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Afern27@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:18:40 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Mark Wiley Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "I'm thinking now that he made these claims in an interview someone did with him instead of something he authored himself. I used to keep all those old magazines for times just like this, but now all I keep are the books." If you do find the source please do post it. Seems out of character to forsake everything else he trained in just get his hands on lineage to Binas Arnis, but you never know... ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:27:06 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] NG and Bob Spour and open-handed techniques Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net ON BEHALF OF BOB SPOUR: Hi Michael when striking with the palm I hit with the heel portion of the hand because it is harder and therefore less likely to break. If you hit higher up toward the fingers I guess that would be a slap and may even break your hand... I have however bruised my hand on a couple of occasions! Slightly less damage than was done to the opponent. Although I personally prefer to throw the technique like a hook punch I have one or two friends who have used it toward the front of the head and/or the chin like a piston. One of the guys I served with used multiples...very flashy! It of course, did the job.(lots of CFS) The target is of course crucial but very simple to strike and therefore easy to master...look at the line of the jaw and then strike it. It's not really rocket science, although some martial artists would have you believe otherwise. If it misses the jaw, which is unlikely, it will catch the neck, the ear or the temple. That still seems to get the job done too. We intend putting together more footage on head controls soon, so keep an eye out on www.streetfightsecrets.com and my site www.sassurvival.co.uk ... and no I was not in the series with Eddie Stone, although I do know a man who was! Take it Easy Bob On 8/21/07, Michael Koblic wrote: > > P.S. You need to make a DVD on the head manipulation. With details, multiple > views and slow motion, please! > P.P.S. I am supposed to ask: Were you in the TV series with Sgt. Eddie > Stone? -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win. --__--__-- Message: 6 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:27:50 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] Re: FYI Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Presented here for completeness. Enjoy. Ray "The Agitator" Terry ======================================================== Greetings Master Darren G. Tibon, as always it was very good to speak with you over the telephone yesterday...Your letter to Mr. Rey Terry was well stated and respectfulluy presented. As you know I have also received unfavorable publicity from this same character. In my opinion Mr. Rey Terry is an agitator regarding certain Serrada Escrima people that he is not in favor of. Mr. Terry comes off as if he is some type of an official authority regarding the late GGM Angel Cabales. From my understanding, Mr. Terry is but one out of many students of Mike Inay, who himself was but one out of many students of GGM Angel Cabales. When Mike Inay was alive, I never read or heard him say anything disrespectful about GGM Angel Cabales or about any of his students. So from what I can see Mr.Terry is on his own smear campaign agenda. Mr. Terry uses GGM Angel Cabales' great image in order to highlight Mike Inay along with himself. Mr. Terry pretends that he truly respects the golden legacy of GGM Angel Cabales, but in reality everything that he says and prints regarding GGM Cabales always has a slanderous hidden intent. I do not know Mr. Terry personally, but I do not like him as far as his disrespectful and spiteful remarks. This man prints information in his "Forum" about certain people without first making anykind of direct contact with the various people that he co-slanders in order to confirm his stories before he prints them. To me! Mr. Terry is an irresponsible amateur wanna be journalist, and I for one do not recommend that anyone read his Digest publications because he is too willing to create havoc in the world of FMA. If Mr. Terry continues on to operate in this fashion, then I predict that his Eskrima Digest will have a short shelf life...and it is just a matter of time before Mr.Terry has a dark day coming. So my Brother hold fast and strong to what GGM Angel Cabales taught us personally, and just view Mr.Terry for the underhanded person that he really is. As you said it is not about the paper; "the floor tells the truth, not the title". 'Take Great Care' and I'll see you after my co-workshop is over with one of GGM Angel Cabales' 1st. generation graduate students, the legendary GM Richard S. Bustillo. Highest Regards! GM Anthony Davis/ President World Serrada Escrima Federation DARREN TIBON wrote: ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: DARREN TIBON Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 8:11:27 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Mark Wiley Mr. Terry, I never wanted to get involved with the politics on your forum, but it seems that every time the art of Serrada or a Serrada Master's name is brought up-right away-you promote negativity. It seems as though you are very misinformed on many counts with regards to Serrada. The information which is broadcast on this forum can only be known by those who were actually present. For example, regarding the below message about the "Letter of Permit for Mark Wiley". It states GM Angel did not write this letter, you are correct, my wife and I wrote this letter. We presented it to GM Angel at his house. Those present were GM Angel, his wife Tess, my wife and myself. He put his glasses on and reviewed the letter and said he would mail it to Mark Wiley. I am the 11th Master under the late GM Angel Cabeles. I was a senior instructor to several of the last Masters. The active Masters that were around the academy during this time also served as head instructors. We all helped train Mark Wiley. He worked hard and also trained under several other former students throughout Chicago and the east coast before he even came to GM Angel. I am responding to this email for the good of Serrada, and for that matter, to all FMA in hopes of a positive outlook on the art as a whole. Also, GM Angel was never a sell out and the brothers of Serrada would appreciate some respect to his honor and not spread these rumors any further. Nobody knows exactly what GM Angel taught anybody in private training for his Masters Degree. "The training was private". It is going on 17 years since his passing, the most important thing is that we continue to teach what we learned from GM Angel. The bottom line is....the floor tells the truth, not the title. Regards, Darren G. Tibon President, USFMAF Co-Founder Angels Disciples Escrima Association www.usfmaf.org --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:30:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jon Broster To: Eskrima Digest Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Mark Wiley Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, I made the original post on this thread the night before I went away, so I have missed all the fun & games since then ;-) Rather than speculate on matters regarding: 1. Mark Wiley's time spent training with Angel Cabales 2. His inheritance of the Binas system I will ask him directly when he comes over and I'll post his answers here on ED. A couple of observations on Mark: He is very good at what he does (I have seen a lot of good eskrima people from Europe, USA & PI and I rate him very highly) so maybe he did "grow into his rank"! He has almost single handedly put FMA on the map with publishers. He has been to the PI and trained with people most of us have only read about. Jon >> ... I read here and >> there about Mark, both negative and positive and in >> this case, since a statement has been written about >> his motives and actions, I am really curious as to the >> basis for the statement, especially the part about the >. pretense in order to obtain the inheritor title. >>>I'm not sure what more can be said that hasn't already been said. One good thing that did come from Mark's brief exposure to Angel and Serrada is that it obviously sparked a keen interest in the FMAs that has stayed with Mark all the years since. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com <<< "There's nothing more dangerous than a blunt knife" http://www.pecahan.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:12:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Kristine Strasburger To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] fundraising auction Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Kim, Johnathan and Brandon, What a good idea to help out the family of this girl. Such a sad story. I have visited your ebay link below, and placed a bid. I challenge all of the list members to check out your auction, and place a bid if able to. >Just wanted to pass on some info about an auction co-sponsored by >Guro Kim Satterfield of the Midwest School of Eskrima and myself. Please > stop by and help us raise a little money for the family of a fallen > kareteka. She was 11 and dropped from a heart failure while here in the > States. The whole story is posted with the auction. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150153144641 Kristine Strasburger www.HeartlandEskrimaSchool.com --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. --__--__-- Message: 9 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:31:41 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] Larry Hartsell Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sifu Larry Hartsell has passed away; Monday, August 20. http://www.martialinfo.com/comments/LarryHartsell Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Mark Wiley To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:39:26 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I will ask him directly when he comes over and I'll post his answers > here on ED. Thanks. Perhaps that will finally help Bot with his itch. :) > A couple of observations on Mark: > He is very good at what he does (I have seen a lot of good eskrima > people from Europe, USA & PI and I rate him very highly) so maybe he did > "grow into his rank"! > He has almost single handedly put FMA on the map with publishers. > He has been to the PI and trained with people most of us have only read > about. One thing I would like to know... Did, in fact, his time with Angel spark the obvious intense interest in the FMAs that has seemed to develop into a career for him? Or was that spark already a flame when he sought out Angel? I believe he has said that he was 20 years old or so when he first started his Master's diploma under Angel. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:46:02 -0700 (PDT) From: B Katz Subject: Re: [Eskrima] fundraising auction To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Kristine- I can't take any credit for the auction. I only don'ted the lock and block set. Guro Kim and Mr Shelton are behind all this. I just happen to run with some pretty good guys. Salamat, Brandon --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest