Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:00:39 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #267 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Remy Presas and Wing Chun (ABANICO) 2. Re: Re: Training tools for kids... (steven.armstrong1@us.army.mil) 3. Re: Re: Re: Remy Presas and Wing Chun (jay de leon) 4. Kids training for Eskrima Thoughts and Supplies (Lawrence, Marc J.) 5. Re: Re: Re: Remy Presas and Wing Chun (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 15:01:58 +0200 From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (ABANICO) Organization: ABANICO GmbH & Co KG To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Re: Remy Presas and Wing Chun Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I just want to clarify something: The original question was, that GM Remy Presas developed Modern Arnis IN THE PHILIPPINES out of several styles including Wing Chun. Quote: >"It's a combination of balintawak, arnis, karate, judo and wing tzun" And I am very sure this is not the case. Surely, GM Remy was a very open person. When he saw new things that he found valuable, he incorporated these techniques or principles into his Modern Arnis. This is, why his Modern Arnis evolved all the time. So he learned from many people, why not from his later wife Yvette Wong? And of course, other Modern Arnis Masters and instructors added their influences to their Modern Arnis, like Bram Frank did. So I do not say, that there are no Wing Chun influences in the way, some people teach Modern Arnis. And I think this is ok. That is why it is MODERN Arnis. By far Modern Arnis is not the same with different instructors. Many instructors added their personal approach to their Modern Arnis. So some might have some Wing Chun influence, some not. Just In the Philippines, during his time in Manila, from 1969 to 1975, I am very sure, that then, there were no Wing Chun influences in GM Remy Presas' Modern Arnis. Quote Jay de Leon: > I agree that wing chun is not normally mentioned as a component > of Remy's Modern Arnis, but in his later years in Manila, was he > not exposed to all those kung fu masters/practitioners in > Chinatown, either on a friendly or not-so-friendly basis? > > I guess we can draw a parallel in that in his later years in the > United States, was he not influenced by his touring partners > Wally Jay and maybe even George Dillman? There is one big difference: We KNOW, that GM Remy worked with Wally Jay and George Dillman and that he was influenced by them. We have NO data, if he had contact to Wing Chun in the Philippines during that time or not. I have talked to a lot of his students, that were there during that time. (Rodel Dagooc, Jerry Dela Cruz, Christino Vasquez, Ernesto Presas, Roberto Presas, Willie Annang, Roland Dantes, etc.) In Manila, he was heavily involved spreading, demonstrating and teaching his Modern Arnis. He did not even go back to Cebu to continue his Balintawak. None of these Masters ever mentioned anything, that had something to do with Wing Chun. I don't even know, if there was Wing Chun in Manila at this time at all. But even if there was, then we could also say, that he was influenced by all the styles that were in Manila or the Philippines at that time, because he MAY have met or fought against them and he MAY has learned something from that. But in my opinion one can not say, that Modern Arnis was FOUNDED on the base of "balintawak, arnis, karate, judo and wing tzun" Just my 2 cent Regards Dieter Knuettel datu@modern-arnis.de --__--__-- Message: 2 From: To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:12:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Training tools for kids... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the help I will try to implement these tools I still have 2 daughters and one on the way so I will be teaching my kids for a long time. Thanks a bunch Respectfully SSG ARMSTRONG ----- Original Message ----- From: B Katz Date: Sunday, September 2, 2007 11:02 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Training tools for kids... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > SSGT Armstrong, > > I am the father of a 12 year old who began his training this > summer. Strangely enough, I also make custom training implements. > At the risk of sounding like I'm blowing my own horn... they are > quite nice. I encourage you, and anyone else looking for good > training tools, to take a look at my website > www.eskrimacustoms.com I love creating custom pieces for kids! > > Mabuhay ang Eskrima! > > Brandon > > > www.eskrimacustoms.com > Fine hand-crafted hardwood > bastons and training knives > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 09:05:31 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Re: Remy Presas and Wing Chun To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I agree 100% with Dieter's conclusions. Very logical and rational exposition. I just want to point out that, like PG Mat Marinas, I was around the martial arts scene in Manila from 1969-1974, the years Remy was in Manila. I did not meet Remy until both of us came to the US. Kung-fu was alive and well in the Philippines during this time. The problem was, almost all if not all kung-fu schools in Chinatown were closed schools. I trained in kung-fu for a short while (less than a year) under two brothers, Lito Vito and Teddy Vito, at separate times. Both were Filipino sifus who had trained extensively in Chinatown. I believe Lito Vito is still active in kung-fu to this day. I ain't no kung-fu expert, but I saw some very high-level kung-fu during those times. I saw Tsinoy teen-agers perform kung-fu katas, with flowery names something like "Lotus Flower Opening Up." I am almost sure that wing chun was taught in Chinatown around this time, and Remy probably had "peripheral interaction" with some of these kung-fu masters (not necessarily wing chun). FWIW, I learned wing chun only after coming to the US, as part of my Inosanto Kali. Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com ABANICO wrote: Hi all, I just want to clarify something: The original question was, that GM Remy Presas developed Modern Arnis IN THE PHILIPPINES out of several styles including Wing Chun. Quote: >"It's a combination of balintawak, arnis, karate, judo and wing tzun" And I am very sure this is not the case. Surely, GM Remy was a very open person. When he saw new things that he found valuable, he incorporated these techniques or principles into his Modern Arnis. This is, why his Modern Arnis evolved all the time. So he learned from many people, why not from his later wife Yvette Wong? And of course, other Modern Arnis Masters and instructors added their influences to their Modern Arnis, like Bram Frank did. So I do not say, that there are no Wing Chun influences in the way, some people teach Modern Arnis. And I think this is ok. That is why it is MODERN Arnis. By far Modern Arnis is not the same with different instructors. Many instructors added their personal approach to their Modern Arnis. So some might have some Wing Chun influence, some not. Just In the Philippines, during his time in Manila, from 1969 to 1975, I am very sure, that then, there were no Wing Chun influences in GM Remy Presas' Modern Arnis. Quote Jay de Leon: > I agree that wing chun is not normally mentioned as a component > of Remy's Modern Arnis, but in his later years in Manila, was he > not exposed to all those kung fu masters/practitioners in > Chinatown, either on a friendly or not-so-friendly basis? > > I guess we can draw a parallel in that in his later years in the > United States, was he not influenced by his touring partners > Wally Jay and maybe even George Dillman? There is one big difference: We KNOW, that GM Remy worked with Wally Jay and George Dillman and that he was influenced by them. We have NO data, if he had contact to Wing Chun in the Philippines during that time or not. I have talked to a lot of his students, that were there during that time. (Rodel Dagooc, Jerry Dela Cruz, Christino Vasquez, Ernesto Presas, Roberto Presas, Willie Annang, Roland Dantes, etc.) In Manila, he was heavily involved spreading, demonstrating and teaching his Modern Arnis. He did not even go back to Cebu to continue his Balintawak. None of these Masters ever mentioned anything, that had something to do with Wing Chun. I don't even know, if there was Wing Chun in Manila at this time at all. But even if there was, then we could also say, that he was influenced by all the styles that were in Manila or the Philippines at that time, because he MAY have met or fought against them and he MAY has learned something from that. But in my opinion one can not say, that Modern Arnis was FOUNDED on the base of "balintawak, arnis, karate, judo and wing tzun" Just my 2 cent Regards Dieter Knuettel datu@modern-arnis.de _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:11:26 -0700 From: "Lawrence, Marc J." To: Subject: [Eskrima] Kids training for Eskrima Thoughts and Supplies Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I was wondering about training aids for youth. I have a 9 year old son who has a lord of the rings video game for his TV and it came with a sword he is able to practice all his basic strikes and parries with it. I was able to make it a fun learning experience for him. I was wondering if there were any suggestions for other training aids for kids. I have 4 Kids and I would like to have all of them learn ESCRIMA as it has been a large part of my life. Any suggestions will be helpful THANKS SSG ARMSTRONG Sgt.Armstrong, I saw your post in the Eskrima Digest. I teach children as well as adults in public classes as well as two of my own 8 and 12 as well as neighborhood kids and my wife's nephew age 9. My sons, my nephew and their friends compete also. I am not sure of your training so I will answer it as best as I can. I would recommend the following things- first is the correct size of the stick -diameter should be no larger then the inside measurement of users thumb nail and first finger nail. The stick should be no longer then from armpit to the tip of the finger. The sticks should be made of rattan as is it soft semi- flexible wood that absorbs shock, for more information go to the (www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com under articles) If you have problems finding stick small enough you can order the material to make them from a number of suppliers. If that is not possible where you are, I do make custom sticks and training blades- traditional Bolo style at reasonable prices (contact me @ mjlawrence@sbcglabal.net). (Until recently I only made them as gifts.) Second- My kids do not like complicated things when training I can recommend 1 book that co-authored (PAKAMUT-The Original Filipino Fighting System of Stick, Knife and Empty Hands- available at www.valleymartialarts.com ) and a video Doce Pares Multi-System Style Volume. Unfortunately I yet to find a video game for kids yet. Third if you need physical training aids for the boys see (www.fmadigest.com) FMA Digest Special Edition- Homemade Training Equipment for instruction on how to make it or see www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com under articles). Guro Marc Lawrence PAKAMUT-South Bay --__--__-- Message: 5 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Re: Remy Presas and Wing Chun To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 15:05:24 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Just In the Philippines, during his time in Manila, from 1969 to 1975, I > am very sure, that then, there were no Wing Chun influences in GM Remy > Presas' Modern Arnis. I'm curious what the years 1969 to 1975 actually represent. Are these the years that Remy was actively teaching and forming his Modern Arnis in the RP? Was it in 1975 that he left the RP for the US? We've heard (from Rocky, I think?) that Remy really looked up to Cacoy. Did he ever study with Cacoy or was it more from a fight fan perspective? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest