Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 01:44:00 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #350 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Death Matches (Tarn Shadowhawk) 2. Re: Death Matches (Glenn Timmons) 3. Re: Death Matches (Ray) 4. Re: Death Matches (Andrew Maddox) 5. Re: Swords again (Jon Broster) 6. Re: Death Matches (Glenn Timmons) 7. Re: Swords again (Michael Gallagher) 8. Re: Death Matches (Ray) 9. Re: Death Matches (Glenn Timmons) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 19:50:16 -0800 (PST) From: Tarn Shadowhawk Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Death Matches To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net And here I have a hard time finding people to enter the weapons tournament I am hosting. And I won't allow blood! Oh how we have fallen. --- Ollie Batts wrote: > It wasn't just in the Philippines where people died > in stick fighting > matches. Here in England, around the 18th century, > contests with sticks were > a regular occurrence at country fairs, veasts and > revels. > > At different periods, and in different parts of the > country, such matches > were known as: Singlestick, Backswording and > Cudgelling, mainly. Most often, > it would be local men who would step forward and > 'toss their hats in the > ring' (and yes, that is where the saying originates > from) to signify their > desire to compete. Some other contestants, however, > would travel around the > country. These men could almost be called > professional Gamesters, for it was > their desire to win as much prize money each year as > they could. One such > man was a Butcher by trade, from Purton. One can > only assume the money that > he usually earned from Butchering was not that > great, or else his love for > stick fighting and the 'butchering' of people > instead, was what led to him > travelling the length and breadth of the country in > order to compete. > > The wicker hand-guards from the sticks (the only > real protection allowed), > were known as 'pots'. These would be passed around > the crowd after each > match so that the spectators could show their > appreciation. New smocks and > hats were often won at such competitions too. (At > least they could be worn, > unlike the gold painted bits of plastic you get at > competitions nowadays!) > > The sticks themselves were usually thin Ash, around > 32 inches in length, and > they were soaked overnight in butts of water to make > them more pliant, and > less likely to break. The contest was won by the > first competitor to draw > blood from his opponent above the level of his chin > - that would usually be > from the forehead or eyebrows - although the nose > and mouth often received > some 'stick' too. > > Apart from the wicker hand guards, the only other > protection allowed was a > stout pair of breeches, and the prayer 'God Spare > Our Eyes'. A prayer not > always answered! > > Whilst a match could be over in seconds, with the > first flick of the wrist > sending the tip of the stick to deftly remove a > piece of skin from the head > of an opponent so that the blood quickly trickled > down. The requirement was > for the blood to 'run an inch' in order for the > winner to be declared. > > It was not at all uncommon for breeches and thick > country shirts to be cut > to ribbons. Sometimes, especial if neither fighter > could get the correct > distance to strike with the tip of their sticks, > they would stand and hit > each other along the length of their sticks. These > blows were cumulatively > concussive, but might not produce the necessary > 'inch of blood' to win the > fight. In such cases, fights could go on for some > time - sometimes for more > than an hour. It's recorded that one William > Goodyear, of St. Mary Bourne, > died lunatic as a result of his injuries from a > match. On yet another such > occasion, at one of Robert Dover's events, two men > fought for over an hour > without drawing blood. They were awarded a draw, but > one died soon after. > > Pugil > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:57:15 -0800 (PST) From: Glenn Timmons Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Death Matches To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Why don't you guys find a way and make some kind of body protector like they use in kendo? I am sure with all of your talents out there in eskrimaland the old saying goes if theres a will theres a way .. better yet you build it and they will come.. good hunting ----- Original Message ---- From: Tarn Shadowhawk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 7:50:16 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Death Matches And here I have a hard time finding people to enter the weapons tournament I am hosting. And I won't allow blood! Oh how we have fallen. --- Ollie Batts wrote: > It wasn't just in the Philippines where people died > in stick fighting > matches. Here in England, around the 18th century, > contests with sticks were > a regular occurrence at country fairs, veasts and > revels. > > At different periods, and in different parts of the > country, such matches > were known as: Singlestick, Backswording and > Cudgelling, mainly. Most often, > it would be local men who would step forward and > 'toss their hats in the > ring' (and yes, that is where the saying originates > from) to signify their > desire to compete. Some other contestants, however, > would travel around the > country. These men could almost be called > professional Gamesters, for it was > their desire to win as much prize money each year as > they could. One such > man was a Butcher by trade, from Purton. One can > only assume the money that > he usually earned from Butchering was not that > great, or else his love for > stick fighting and the 'butchering' of people > instead, was what led to him > travelling the length and breadth of the country in > order to compete. > > The wicker hand-guards from the sticks (the only > real protection allowed), > were known as 'pots'. These would be passed around > the crowd after each > match so that the spectators could show their > appreciation. New smocks and > hats were often won at such competitions too. (At > least they could be worn, > unlike the gold painted bits of plastic you get at > competitions nowadays!) > > The sticks themselves were usually thin Ash, around > 32 inches in length, and > they were soaked overnight in butts of water to make > them more pliant, and > less likely to break. The contest was won by the > first competitor to draw > blood from his opponent above the level of his chin > - that would usually be > from the forehead or eyebrows - although the nose > and mouth often received > some 'stick' too. > > Apart from the wicker hand guards, the only other > protection allowed was a > stout pair of breeches, and the prayer 'God Spare > Our Eyes'. A prayer not > always answered! > > Whilst a match could be over in seconds, with the > first flick of the wrist > sending the tip of the stick to deftly remove a > piece of skin from the head > of an opponent so that the blood quickly trickled > down. The requirement was > for the blood to 'run an inch' in order for the > winner to be declared. > > It was not at all uncommon for breeches and thick > country shirts to be cut > to ribbons. Sometimes, especial if neither fighter > could get the correct > distance to strike with the tip of their sticks, > they would stand and hit > each other along the length of their sticks. These > blows were cumulatively > concussive, but might not produce the necessary > 'inch of blood' to win the > fight. In such cases, fights could go on for some > time - sometimes for more > than an hour. It's recorded that one William > Goodyear, of St. Mary Bourne, > died lunatic as a result of his injuries from a > match. On yet another such > occasion, at one of Robert Dover's events, two men > fought for over an hour > without drawing blood. They were awarded a draw, but > one died soon after. > > Pugil > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Death Matches To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:30:59 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Why don't you guys find a way and make some kind of body protector like > they use in kendo? You mean like http://www.spargear.com/Products.asp?intCatalogID=6 ? Sparring gear has been around for a long time. Perhaps that is part of the problem, since it does not seem to be the solution. Did our instructors wear sparring gear? No. So why should we? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:30:19 +0000 (UTC) From: Andrew Maddox To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Death Matches Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Ray wrote: > Sparring gear has been around for a long time. Perhaps that is part of > the problem, since it does not seem to be the solution. > > Did our instructors wear sparring gear? No. So why should we? Hmm. An opportunity to inject my "hey gang, let's put on a show" plea again! (Sorry, I just has to speak up) For Mr. Adams, I don't know exactly why you're having trouble finding participants. For me, I'd be put off by the point scoring system (I prefer a more subjective, boxing style '10-point must' system) and some of the limitations in the rules. When I competed, it was informal except a couple of the tournaments Tuhon Chris Sayoc put on about 15 years ago, but when I was in the tournaments I really disliked the WEKAF setup at the time, preferring the more open Sayoc structure. I also think the requirement for period clothing is a bit silly, to be honest. Some of the other requirements on what's an allowable hit and what isnt make your structure not as compatible with (speaking only from my experience) the way hard-contact-liking FMAers (and not all are) tend to fight. That said, from a more European MA-oriented group, of which there are many, I'd think you should be able to get a good showing. But don't put a minimum number of participants in there - I've had great fun in trounaments that had only 5 or 6 people in each weight class! (We fought each other a couple of times, everybody went round robin, and I think we gave up on awarding anything, kinda like a Dog Brothers lite event). Anyway, anybody around me who wants to start working out is welcome and invited to get in touch! If you know me, drop me a line, if you're wondering who the hell I am and what I'm talking about, do the same. I'd join the Dog Brothers if I had time and resources to train enough and travel to one of their Gatherings, but I can't. So let's try for the next best thing, eh? Laters, Andy -- Andrew Maddox, madsox2k at freeshell dot org Practitioner of Unaffiliated Martial Arts But really just, like, this guy, y'know? --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:36:08 -0800 (PST) From: Jon Broster Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Swords again To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, That's right! So now violent offenders will have to buy ninja swords or Blade movie swords or Lord of the Rings swords instead. Wait a minute, wasn't it illegal to carry an offensive weapon before they enacted this new piece of nonsense legislation? Is being attacked by a samurai sword somehow worse than being attacked by another kind of sword? List members need not worry though - there will be exemptions for martial arts experts and sword collectors! (I wonder who will decide that one) Jon From: "Gilmour, Julian" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Swords again Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all More on the Katana debacle: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7138735.stm It seems to specify 'samurai' swords, so I don't know if it will affect eg. Barongs, or the longer Filipino swords. Strike from the void Julian * --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:49:19 -0800 (PST) From: Glenn Timmons Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Death Matches To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Then go ahead and get body injury.. what are trying to prove.. a certain status where you rank amongst your peers. When you do these tournaments human nature takes over, its not for fun anymore egos get involve like it or not..so go ahead do it with out protection; I was just concern for those who will get serious injuries.. please excuse my input on this. ----- Original Message ---- From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:30:59 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Death Matches > Why don't you guys find a way and make some kind of body protector like > they use in kendo? You mean like http://www.spargear.com/Products.asp?intCatalogID=6 ? Sparring gear has been around for a long time. Perhaps that is part of the problem, since it does not seem to be the solution. Did our instructors wear sparring gear? No. So why should we? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:05:36 -0500 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Michael Gallagher Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Swords again Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net At 06:46 AM 12/12/2007, you wrote: >Hi all > >More on the Katana debacle: > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7138735.stm > >It seems to specify 'samurai' swords, so I don't know if it will affect >eg. Barongs, or the longer Filipino swords. Until crooks start using those in attacks. --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Death Matches To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:56:49 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Then go ahead and get body injury.. what are trying to prove.. a certain status where you rank amongst your peers. When you do these tournaments human nature takes over, its not for fun anymore egos get involve like it or not..so go ahead do it with out protection; I was just concern for those who will get serious injuries.. please excuse my input on this. >> No excuses needed. We can disagree, no problem with that. What are we trying to prove? That our training works. What a full contact hit feels like. Things of that nature. If you don't know what a full contact blow feels like you don't know how you will react when it happens in real life. Granted, different people train for different reasons. Some are interested in training in a martial art. Others in a martial sport. Can you get hurt in full contract training? Sure! You can get hurt doing most anything. When I've been hurt in training my initial thought was not "crap, that bum hurt me!", it was "crap, I need to train harder so that doesn't happen again". Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:51:36 -0800 (PST) From: Glenn Timmons Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Death Matches To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Ray, I understand your message, i don't mean any disrespect..Sometimes I sit and check out my mail and respond to a topic,but as you know our e-mail friends bombard a topic of interest and I do my best to get up to speed and sometimes I don't know were to begin to catch up a certain topic.. I don't mean to be disrespectful in any way. Certain people that grew up fighting know what i am about to say. The environment that you grow up in gives you a true perspective of how what you as a child or a teen have experienced growing up.. for instance fighting. Growing up in Luzon, I was exposed to allot of fighting, I had my fair share. When I moved here to the USA, I was exposed to an atmosphere were guns and knifes was still not used as much like todays violence;don't get me wrong the guns and knifes were around.. we fought and you just had to fight back. Some knew how to fight and when they couldn't hurt you the way the wanted too they came in numbers from one to four and at one time a group of seven at one time > I have the scars of those days... My friend lost his upper teeth and two of his ribs broken do to a pipe and several kicks to the his side and head; for me I have three gold teeth from that day from a guy that held a rock in his hand striking me with it every time I move to get different angle on the situation doing the best to fend off these Cholos from hurting my child hood friend; he was out cold. That day change me for the worst! After I recovered, I went hunting for these Cholos; out of the seven i got even with four,the fifth guy I ran into when I was 21 with my son now 23years old and a petty officer in the Navy; changed his profession from being a Navy Seal to communications and top Ten in his Graduating Class (just a proud Father excuse me for getting off base) we saw each other, he took off his belt and wrapped it around his fist, as handed my son to my wife she told me to let it go! I was not listening to what she was saying, my focus was to do major harm to that guy! I gave chase as he ran from me, stoped him from climbing wall.... I Lit into him square across his face broke his jaw and rearrange his nose! That guy was a golden gloves boxer at 17!This happened 4 years later.. There are no rules in the streets you just got to do what you need to do.. experience and wisdom come from different places and times in our life and those that learn from them GROW. If you ever get in a real fight things move so fast your heart races and when it happens you will know.. In the real world you don't really know what is going to happen to you? do you look over your shoulder or you just get on with your life? think about it; if you win you still lose! you have no say in the matter if that other person you hurt lets you off the hook then its all good! and if he can't beat you he will surely find away to get back at you or your family. If you happen to fight a person of this mind set and has nothing to lose.. watch out! Thats why you never win in a fight it get too easy to fight every time and you think you have something to prove.. no matter what you know; you don't know what the other person is thinking... any form of self defense is great, you can't let the ego enter inside your head! all Great Teachers in martial arts must help past on self discipline and to help you grow not just physically but mentally.. we all have peace inside all of us.. > So just for fun if you want to experience what a full contact blow feels like? sure its going to hurt maybe break a BONE or if it is delivered improperly maybe TRUMA OR YOUR DEAD! If your really serious about how it feels stick out your arm and have a student strike you at full force with escrima stick.. please use your left arm to demonstrate this lesson, I will assume you are right handed...let me know how it feels. By the way the other two cholos that i never came across ,but I had heard from others years back; One took a Hammer in is head while opening his front door after he moved out of my city by a arrival gang member tryin to make a name for himself, the other got ice picked twenty -two times in jail at age 29... I chose to walk down another road: I chose Family and Friends. I hope you didn't mind me rambling along. Happy Holidays to all of you ----- Original Message ---- From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 9:56:49 AM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Death Matches >> Then go ahead and get body injury.. what are trying to prove.. a certain status where you rank amongst your peers. When you do these tournaments human nature takes over, its not for fun anymore egos get involve like it or not..so go ahead do it with out protection; I was just concern for those who will get serious injuries.. please excuse my input on this. >> No excuses needed. We can disagree, no problem with that. What are we trying to prove? That our training works. What a full contact hit feels like. Things of that nature. If you don't know what a full contact blow feels like you don't know how you will react when it happens in real life. Granted, different people train for different reasons. Some are interested in training in a martial art. Others in a martial sport. Can you get hurt in full contract training? Sure! You can get hurt doing most anything. When I've been hurt in training my initial thought was not "crap, that bum hurt me!", it was "crap, I need to train harder so that doesn't happen again". Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest