Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:28:04 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #355 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: full contact training (Daniel Arola) 2. Re: Re: death matches and hard core training (Daniel Arola) 3. RE: Re: death matches and hard core training (Jeremiah Hosch) 4. Wrist grab release (Ollie Batts) 5. Full Contact (jason couture) 6. Re: full contact training (Tarn Shadowhawk) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 16:37:21 -0800 (PST) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] full contact training To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If I get the guys to go at full speed with full power hitting continuously in a round, I'd put the softer sticks in their hands or sometimes just with real thin rattan sticks. It would be boneheaded if our full contact training were based solely on all out knockdown sparring sessions with the big axhandles. There's always the option to isolate the attributes such as power, speed and strength building from hitting the tire targets at full power and mental "fury"(such as is often displayed among the muscleheads at the gym doing a heavy powerlifting rep on the rack). Speedy reflexes and footwork and timing and distance appreciation can be atained from fake dagger sparring. and the list goes on. I hope that helps for now... Daniel Tarn Shadowhawk wrote: Hey Daniel! Glad to find you in here as well as your group. Now I am going to ask you guys a question. Jason you can answer too. What do you consider full contact training? To me it means going thru the moves as fast and acurately as possible, but stopping just short of injury. For example, in my school I have the hardest time getting the guys to really make it hard for the girls to, say, get away from a wrist grab. I have to tell them not to let go unless the girl actually breaks the hold. Also that you must throw a punch as fast as possible but you don't have to actually make contact. Lets face it, if a much larger and stronger opponant hits you in the face just right that is going to be it for you. If you have nose strengthening techniques let me know cause mine will just break. Now full contact to me has nothing to do with trading punches which is just dumb. It means doing the best technique to the most vital area you can reach. If a 110 pound girl hits a 200 pound man in the throat correctly he is going to stop breathing. I teach my students that interupting the breathing process is the best way to stop an attack. So throat, the solar plexus, then groin, and you have paralized the nervous system that they have to at least pass out to breath again. And that is if you didn't crush the throat with the first punch. I make them all practice until they can be sure of the focus and power of their strikes. Lets face it. We are NOT going to be attacked by an unarmed opponant that is not bigger and stronger than us. No matter how big we are, unless said individual has some other advantage we are not aware of. If you want to practice trading shots with someone find a guy that has at least 40 pounds on you and have him bring a friend. That is more likely what is going to happen in this day and age anyway. We do have a conditioning exercise that will go a long way in allowing you to become able to not only take a great shot but give one too. It is called "kotikitae". It involves a partner alternating with you in striking: legs,inside and outside. Arms, inside and outside, and palm heal to face, mastoid process, check, and chin. It all starts out mildly and progresses to 80% of full stike ability. The head is an exception cause that would knock out most people. The point is that done correctly it conditions you to take a punch and give one SAFELY. There are no wimps in my school,man or woman. They all have to do this. The girls do get a little vicious tho.lol Sorry to be so long winded. Let me know what you think. --- Daniel Arola wrote: > Hell yeah Jason! I remember those days and I am > still working on promoting this very issue since we > trained together back in NC. > > -Daniel Arola > > jason couture wrote: I > feel full contact training is a very important part > of a self defense system. If you truly want to see > what works, what's crap and what you are capable of > pulling off at your body size and strength, full > contact/real contact needs to be addressed. Some > students may be more in love with the movie version > of > self defense or just want to feel they are a bad ass > because they go to classes a few days a week. I say > to this.... "to each his own". The trick is finding > people capable of delivering the realistic pain and > knowing where the danger limit is. Only stupid, self > serving training partners cross that line. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > > > > DAMAG-INC > [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] > http://www.damag-inc.zoomshare.com > Houston, Texas > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them > fast with Yahoo! Search. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net DAMAG-INC [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] http://www.damag-inc.zoomshare.com Houston, Texas --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:18:08 -0800 (PST) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: death matches and hard core training To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net That's the Sayoc Kali Stickgrappling DVD. It's WORTH IT! This is a clip that walks the walk when it comes to no-nonsense execution that the art itself offers. Daniel Tarn Shadowhawk wrote: Sounds good. Where do I find the DVD's? --- Kim Satterfield wrote: > Hi all, > If you all want to see something, check out Tom Kier > of Sayoc Kali, and his DVD's. I spent the afternoon > with my long time buddy and teacher Al McLuckie > yesterday, and he showed me a DVD of Tuhon Kier that > included a little "contest" Kier and his compadres > put together. (Al and Tuhon Kier have be close > friends for years). It was full-contact stick > fighting, and the rules were very easy to > follow...there weren't any. No body targets were > off limits, no technique was outlawed, and > absolutely no protective equipment was allowed, > none, including groin cups. These guys just warmed > up and went at it. I've seen a lot in my day, but I > can honestly say that I was more than impressed by > the sheer guts of these guys. I've been in the > martial arts for 35 years, but I've never seen > anything that made me wince in pain just watching > like this DVD did after every blow these guys > landed. They were serious, folks. I just sat back > with my mouth hanging open and realized that as > brutal as it was, these guys were walking the walk. > > Kim Satterfield > > > In the words of the late, great John Belushi, "Wise > Up" > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net DAMAG-INC [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] http://www.damag-inc.zoomshare.com Houston, Texas --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jeremiah Hosch" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: death matches and hard core training Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 21:27:46 -0600 Organization: Strategic Defense Systems Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I can send you a copy I bought from Canada. J Hosch -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Arola [mailto:houstonkaligroup@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 7:18 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: death matches and hard core training That's the Sayoc Kali Stickgrappling DVD. It's WORTH IT! This is a clip that walks the walk when it comes to no-nonsense execution that the art itself offers. Daniel Tarn Shadowhawk wrote: Sounds good. Where do I find the DVD's? --- Kim Satterfield wrote: > Hi all, > If you all want to see something, check out Tom Kier > of Sayoc Kali, and his DVD's. I spent the afternoon > with my long time buddy and teacher Al McLuckie > yesterday, and he showed me a DVD of Tuhon Kier that > included a little "contest" Kier and his compadres > put together. (Al and Tuhon Kier have be close > friends for years). It was full-contact stick > fighting, and the rules were very easy to > follow...there weren't any. No body targets were > off limits, no technique was outlawed, and > absolutely no protective equipment was allowed, > none, including groin cups. These guys just warmed > up and went at it. I've seen a lot in my day, but I > can honestly say that I was more than impressed by > the sheer guts of these guys. I've been in the > martial arts for 35 years, but I've never seen > anything that made me wince in pain just watching > like this DVD did after every blow these guys > landed. They were serious, folks. I just sat back > with my mouth hanging open and realized that as > brutal as it was, these guys were walking the walk. > > Kim Satterfield > > > In the words of the late, great John Belushi, "Wise > Up" > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net DAMAG-INC [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] http://www.damag-inc.zoomshare.com Houston, Texas --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:24:23 +0000 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Wrist grab release Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net For me, effective self-defence is about avoidance initially and simplicity - K.I.S.S. = Keep In Safe Situations (wherever possible) and, if you have no other option but to fight back, Keep It Simple Stupid. One of the simplest ways to get out of a wrist grab (depending on distance) is to stomp the attacker's knee hard. If side-on, use a side kick. If front facing, then stomp forwards (with the toes turned to the outside). How much practise do your female students need to make that one work? Although I also teach leverage break-aways from wrist grabs, they are really for use by such people as workers in a head-trauma centres, etc., where to hit the other person in the eyes, throat, groin, or indeed the knees, would result in loss of job and probably criminal action taken against you. Same with a side head-lock, for example. I see all sorts of complicated and fancy techniques being taught in many martial art schools, when the bite to the attacker's side, accompanied by grabbing his bollocks hard, works much better in most real-life situations. My criteria is this: If it ain't do-able by an average person, who has had a minimal amount of training, whilst in an extremely stressful situation, then it is likely to fail and falls outside what I see as practical self-defence. Pugil Message: 3 Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 14:17:39 -0800 (PST) From: Tarn Shadowhawk Subject: Re: [Eskrima] full contact training To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "For example, in my school I have the hardest time getting the guys to really make it hard for the girls to, say, get away from a wrist grab." --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 23:06:04 -0800 (PST) From: jason couture To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Full Contact Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Daniel! What's up bro? To answer the question posed by someone on the list about what I consider "full contact". Full contact to me means all targets are fair game. Full contact also means full power (although I do confess to kicking lighter to the groin....I mean c'mon.....good training partners are a rare bunch!). Full contact to me means, you are fighting for a submission in some form ( a joint lock, a verbal submission, choke, immobilization. etc...). I hate very wordy e-mails so, I'm going to wrap this up. Full contact is important in the quest for truth. Safety trumps all things. It is possible to practice full contact safely. After all......I'm still alive and even have all my pieces and parts. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:26:33 -0800 (PST) From: Tarn Shadowhawk Subject: Re: [Eskrima] full contact training To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In other words, technique first. Then speed. Then strength and power. If you apply it all to good self-defense tho, the first thing is awareness. May we all die without ever having to use our skill to really take someone out. amen. --- Daniel Arola wrote: > If I get the guys to go at full speed with full > power hitting continuously in a round, I'd put the > softer sticks in their hands or sometimes just with > real thin rattan sticks. It would be boneheaded if > our full contact training were based solely on all > out knockdown sparring sessions with the big > axhandles. There's always the option to isolate the > attributes such as power, speed and strength > building from hitting the tire targets at full power > and mental "fury"(such as is often displayed among > the muscleheads at the gym doing a heavy > powerlifting rep on the rack). Speedy reflexes and > footwork and timing and distance appreciation can be > atained from fake dagger sparring. and the list goes > on. > > I hope that helps for now... > > Daniel > > Tarn Shadowhawk wrote: > Hey Daniel! Glad to find you in here as well as > your > group. Now I am going to ask you guys a question. > Jason you can answer too. What do you consider full > contact training? To me it means going thru the > moves > as fast and acurately as possible, but stopping just > short of injury. For example, in my school I have > the > hardest time getting the guys to really make it hard > for the girls to, say, get away from a wrist grab. I > have to tell them not to let go unless the girl > actually breaks the hold. Also that you must throw a > punch as fast as possible but you don't have to > actually make contact. Lets face it, if a much > larger > and stronger opponant hits you in the face just > right > that is going to be it for you. If you have nose > strengthening techniques let me know cause mine will > just break. Now full contact to me has nothing to do > with trading punches which is just dumb. It means > doing the best technique to the most vital area you > can reach. If a 110 pound girl hits a 200 pound man > in > the throat correctly he is going to stop breathing. > I > teach my students that interupting the breathing > process is the best way to stop an attack. So > throat, > the solar plexus, then groin, and you have paralized > the nervous system that they have to at least pass > out > to breath again. And that is if you didn't crush the > throat with the first punch. I make them all > practice > until they can be sure of the focus and power of > their > strikes. Lets face it. We are NOT going to be > attacked > by an unarmed opponant that is not bigger and > stronger > than us. No matter how big we are, unless said > individual has some other advantage we are not aware > of. If you want to practice trading shots with > someone > find a guy that has at least 40 pounds on you and > have > him bring a friend. That is more likely what is > going > to happen in this day and age anyway. We do have a > conditioning exercise that will go a long way in > allowing you to become able to not only take a great > shot but give one too. It is called "kotikitae". It > involves a partner alternating with you in striking: > legs,inside and outside. Arms, inside and outside, > and > palm heal to face, mastoid process, check, and chin. > It all starts out mildly and progresses to 80% of > full > stike ability. The head is an exception cause that > would knock out most people. The point is that done > correctly it conditions you to take a punch and give > one SAFELY. There are no wimps in my school,man or > woman. They all have to do this. The girls do get a > little vicious tho.lol Sorry to be so long winded. > Let > me know what you think. > > --- Daniel Arola wrote: > > > Hell yeah Jason! I remember those days and I am > > still working on promoting this very issue since > we > > trained together back in NC. > > > > -Daniel Arola > > > > jason couture wrote: I > > feel full contact training is a very important > part > > of a self defense system. If you truly want to see > > what works, what's crap and what you are capable > of > > pulling off at your body size and strength, full > > contact/real contact needs to be addressed. Some > > students may be more in love with the movie > version > > of > > self defense or just want to feel they are a bad > ass > > because they go to classes a few days a week. I > say > > to this.... "to each his own". The trick is > finding > > people capable of delivering the realistic pain > and > > knowing where the danger limit is. Only stupid, > self > > serving training partners cross that line. > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > _______________________________________________ > > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > > Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > > > > > > > > DAMAG-INC > > [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] > > http://www.damag-inc.zoomshare.com > > Houston, Texas > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them > > fast with Yahoo! Search. > > _______________________________________________ > > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > > Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > > > > DAMAG-INC > [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] > http://www.damag-inc.zoomshare.com > Houston, Texas > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest