Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:09:00 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #362 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Sparring No Gear verses Gear (Ray) 2. Full Contact Stick Training - No Gear (Paul Harris) 3. Safety Gear vs. No Safety Gear comments? (GatPuno@aol.com) 4. Re: FULL CONTACT NO RULES (Tarn Shadowhawk) 5. Extremes (Ollie Batts) 6. Without being rude (Ollie Batts) 7. Re: full contact training (Kim Satterfield) 8. Re: searching for school (Mr KRS) 9. Re: FULL CONTACT NO RULES (Glenn Timmons) 10. Re: Re: full contact training (Mike Casto) --__--__-- Message: 1 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Sparring No Gear verses Gear To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:35:35 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Hey c'mon, we have our no-armor or minimal protectors formats too. > Protective Gears is our amateur format so that it is kid-safe, and > olympics-friendly. I'm not trying to say that taekwondo is good, but > I am just saying that armor is just an option depending on what is your > goal. I mean, if arnis guys want it to be kid-safe or appealing to the > public, then armor up. if you want to go extreme, then go on without > the armor. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rOx1omomHQ > [snip] The point is regarding the impact to the art. These clips mostly show that the TKD of today has been watered down by the move to protection and sports. True, they took it off for these bouts, but the influence is still visible. imho Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:54:21 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Harris To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Full Contact Stick Training - No Gear Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "What is to be gained by full contact training? My answer: Proper undilluted technique. Here we are again in the politics of the martial arts / self defense world. Take a good hard look at the difference. Does it scare you? Re-evaluate what you're learning, practicing, teaching. Does everything still fall in line with why you started training in the first place? Be true to yourself!" My comments were not about full contact stick sparring but full contact stick sparring WITHOUT protective gear. I've taken enough hard hits WITH head gear to learn the lesson that avoiding a hit is a good thing and that there is no substitute for learning "proper undiluted technique" that works in realistic situations. If you accept the concept of full force stick sparring with no rules or protective gear (that there is some lesson in doing it that can't be learned some other way) and take it to its logical conclusion we would be talking about knife sparring with live blades or force on force close quarters firearms training with life ammo. Again, realism in training is important but you have to weight the risk involved in elevating the level of realism with the rewards that can be gain, and at the same time consider ways to gain those same benefits while minimizing the risk. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:01:25 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Safety Gear vs. No Safety Gear comments? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:54:18 -0600 > From: "Lawrence, Marc J." > To: > Subject: [Eskrima] Safety Gear Verses No Safety Gear comments > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > It was Grand Master Dionisio Canete of the Doce Pares Multi-system that > started on the idea of the WEKAF Gear, it was Master Erwin Mosqueda who > first told be about early days of the gear design. Others of the Doce > Pares Multi-system have said more about it. Professor Remy Presses of > Modern Arnis saw this need in his early days also, that why in his first > book (1977) he listed the Kendo gear. Even the Dog Brothers- Mark Denny > has his people wear a fencing mask and hockey gloves. Now look at > Balintawak they do a lot of close quarters drills with no gear, but > Grand Master Ising Atillo told me the other day at lunch, when you > sparring wear the gear because it is dangerous without! My Lolo Espi was > right, an injury to the eye is forever! Those who do not know the > history are doomed to repeat it. Remember that in modern sparring there > are two thoughts paths in the current tournament format, one is like > boxing and the other is like fencing. There is big difference between > fighting and sport sparring. Sport sparring is for fun, fighting is for > keeps and everything goes. > > Just my thoughts, > > Marc Lawrence > PAKAMUT-Torrance > > Marc, On 1980's a group of Centurion Original (Paete Arnis Club) went to Cebu for the invitation of the NARAPHIL(National Arnis Association of Philippines) sopposed to be Full Contact Stickfighting, our Laguna Eskrimadores understand is the same as we do in Laguna no protective gear, the group arrive and see the Tournament with fully covered fighter, no wehere to inflict pain. So they dont fights, in return we invite a lot of group in Manila to go to our Tournaments in Paete, a group on Eskrimadores, they claim they are Modern Arnis but I tell you there are not, becaused I know what is Modern Arnis is look like (I was one of their early member). They sopposed to fight and join to our Tournament in 1998, guest what they saw that our tournament is No Protective Gear at all, all of them back out, lose grips of their stick. By the way "correction" the first book of Remy is published on 1974 (the pink book). Full contact no padded, un-less you been there the speculation is not enough to understand what you can get from it. That goes also to a Street comfrontation. I tell you this, everyone is welcome to visit our town in the Philippines every July 25 we have Full-contact no-padded stickfighting, and tell you what the fight goes your way basically rules is, hit your opponent as hard as you can, before the referee stop you. Or get hit before the referee get there to stop your opponent. Majority of the fight is depend on your desire.. Oh I forget to invite you all to Magdalena Laguna Arnis Tournament every July 19 or 20, this one is the rules is limited than Paete, atleast on our tournament we are trying to learn something too to the tournament, in Magdalena Laguna, they fight like close range and who go to the ground or get have the more hit then the referre will stop the fight. Then if you dont have enough, wait untill the end of the tournament and the "Challenge" is on hand of the audience.. You want more fights that day they are not hard to invite.. They are alway ready to fight on your rules. I have nothing to say about Balintawak, becaused I dont see them sparred, I see them trained closed range and I respect that, bottom line if you choose to learn one art, you have to try your skill in non-giving practitioner, without them you dont know if you will survive to the real attack. Train as hard as you can, but most of the times is like in boxing, one hit and all over.. I have many fights in rings, on the street but tell you every time I got there, the undrenaline rush kickin on me and cant remember what happen, all I know I have to win the fight and I did (Luckily) and to maintain that feelings, we are normal people we get hype on our game. But if you can overcome the fear in the middle of the fight that is the major value of No-padded stickfighting. Safety gear you are training for your cardio bascullar only, you almost forget the safety zone, you need to learn how to be safe at all time, if not then need more training, so when the reality arise you are not in protecticve zone a false confident.. To all that have question with me, in anything in regards of Stick Fighting, Filipino Grappling, and healing arts, I made a place for you to visit and post your question, to my garimotweblogs. here is the address: www.garimot.wordpress.com All of the training that everyone does is good until they got hit by someone stronger hitter. They can swing means stick, they can perform a mean drill, reality does not end to the drills, wake up and smell the coffe you all.. Your truly, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:23:25 -0800 (PST) From: Tarn Shadowhawk Subject: Re: [Eskrima] FULL CONTACT NO RULES To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Well I train every day and I STILL don't know how I would function in real life situation. My skill and heart tell me I can handle anything and I never panic, but how can anyone be 100% sure until the chips are down. Train hard all the time guys and cut down on the odds!! --- Gordon Walker wrote: > Hi, > I wholeheartedly agree with Guro Steve L. > I have been training a lot since 1997 and there is > always this thought > "Would I be able to survive a real situation?" > While going full out, day in, day out is not a > healthy way to train with > longevity in mind, it is a necessity if you wish to > answer that thought. > Anyhow, I dont know what the hell Im doing posting > here. I havent trained > for a month. > Regards, > Gord 'some call me guro' W. > p.s. the other thought is > 'can i take a shot?' > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:31:04 +0000 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Extremes Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If we take this argument to its logical conclusion, we should also recommend that people who Fence (epees, foils and sabres) should also leave off their plastrons and masks, and put points back on their weapons. As Rick Faye (Minnesota Kali Group) often says, "the more dangerous the art, the safer you should make your training." It seems to me that the so-called 'Animal Day' sessions held in the U.K. used to see some people get beaten up more than they might ever have been in their lives anyway. Those people who didn't get beaten up (i.e. the ones who beat up the others) simply showed that they were less likely to have been beaten up on the street in the first place. What that meant, was that the strongest prevailed and the weakest did not. So as far as 'self-defence' was concerned, the ones who needed it the most were the ones who were being beaten up by the ones who needed it the least. Can someone explain to me please... How does that process, and training with little or no protection, answer the problem of training in the martial arts in order to help the weak, old and frail in society? Or is self-defence only meant for the youngest, strongest and most able-bodied? Pugil Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:32:41 -0800 (PST) From: jason couture To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Mr. Harris Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just wanted to comment on what Mr. Harris said about "what could be gained by getting hit in the head full force with a stick?". I understand your point. There is no denying that injuries occur. Some last for years. What is to be gained by full contact training? My answer: Proper undilluted technique. Here we are again in the politics of the martial arts / self defense world. Take a good hard look at the difference. Does it scare you? Re-evaluate what you're learning, practicing, teaching. Does everything still fall in line with why you started training in the first place? Be true to yourself! --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:42:52 +0000 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Without being rude Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Still looks like a sport rather than a martial art - 80 per cent kicking, and 20 per cent nothing! None of what I see on the film relates to actual 'combat' or indeed self-defence for the average man, woman and/or child in the street. Not in any way to denigrate or try to put down the athleticism and the spectacle - if you like that kind of thing. Pugil Ruel Apostol wrote: Hey c'mon, we have our no-armor or minimal protectors formats too. Protective Gears is our amateur format so that it is kid-safe, and olympics-friendly. I'm not trying to say that taekwondo is good, but I am just saying that armor is just an option depending on what is your goal. I mean, if arnis guys want it to be kid-safe or appealing to the public, then armor up. if you want to go extreme, then go on without the armor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rOx1omomHQ --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:39:19 -0800 (PST) From: Kim Satterfield To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: full contact training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Folks, when I made the post about Tom Kier and his full contact DVD, it was just a suggestion to watch it, it wasn't an endorsement of any association or any particular philosophy. It was just, "Hey, we're talking full contact, check these guys out!" To me, full contact training in all it's various incarnations is like censorship on television; you can turn it off if you don't like it, but it does cater to a certain audience. My take on the whole subject of reality fighting is this...in the world of self-defense, you will rarely run into a situation where your empty hand skills will come into play. Today, you will more likely be assaulted with a gun, and all the full contact stick training in the world ain't gonna help ya. Train as you want, enjoy your art for whatever reason you choose, and appreciate the other guys' point of view, he may just have something to teach you in the end. Kim In the words of the late, great John Belushi, "Wise Up" --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:53:15 -0800 (PST) From: Mr KRS Subject: Re: [Eskrima] searching for school To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I wouldn't mind training with them either! Karl Swass ----- Original Message ---- From: Gordon Walker To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 12:15:21 AM Subject: [Eskrima] searching for school hi, does anyone know how I can join this school? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpnJWXddb3E&feature=related i have heard great things. gord _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:57:13 -0800 (PST) From: Glenn Timmons Subject: Re: [Eskrima] FULL CONTACT NO RULES To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Easy :common sense/ instinct: Well if you don't know how you will function in a real life situation u r in trouble buddy... you can cut down the odds by not putting yourself in a situation. have a safe holiday. ----- Original Message ---- From: Tarn Shadowhawk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 6:23:25 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] FULL CONTACT NO RULES Well I train every day and I STILL don't know how I would function in real life situation. My skill and heart tell me I can handle anything and I never panic, but how can anyone be 100% sure until the chips are down. Train hard all the time guys and cut down on the odds!! --- Gordon Walker wrote: > Hi, > I wholeheartedly agree with Guro Steve L. > I have been training a lot since 1997 and there is > always this thought > "Would I be able to survive a real situation?" > While going full out, day in, day out is not a > healthy way to train with > longevity in mind, it is a necessity if you wish to > answer that thought. > Anyhow, I dont know what the hell Im doing posting > here. I havent trained > for a month. > Regards, > Gord 'some call me guro' W. > p.s. the other thought is > 'can i take a shot?' > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:56:55 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Casto Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: full contact training To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Actually, according to the FBI statistics from 2004 (all I could quickly find) - http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/aggravated_assault.html - if you get attacked it will most likely *not* be with a gun. A little less than 20% of the aggravated assaults in America in '04 involved firearms. Over half involved some other form of weapon with nearly half of those being edged weapons. And the remainder were empty hand attacks. This means that, statistically, our training in MA - and, especially close-quarters weapons, as in FMA - is absolutely vital for anyone seriously interested in protection of self/others. Mike ----- Original Message ---- From: Kim Satterfield To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 10:39:19 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Re: full contact training Hi all, Folks, when I made the post about Tom Kier and his full contact DVD, it was just a suggestion to watch it, it wasn't an endorsement of any association or any particular philosophy. It was just, "Hey, we're talking full contact, check these guys out!" To me, full contact training in all it's various incarnations is like censorship on television; you can turn it off if you don't like it, but it does cater to a certain audience. My take on the whole subject of reality fighting is this...in the world of self-defense, you will rarely run into a situation where your empty hand skills will come into play. Today, you will more likely be assaulted with a gun, and all the full contact stick training in the world ain't gonna help ya. Train as you want, enjoy your art for whatever reason you choose, and appreciate the other guys' point of view, he may just have something to teach you in the end. Kim In the words of the late, great John Belushi, "Wise Up" --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. 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