Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 02:37:00 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #21 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. What criteria for who to teach? (Marc Denny) 2. Re: Re: dont teach the saudis (Federico Malibago) 3. Nat Geo documentary on Dog Brothers (Marc Denny) 4. Re: Nat Geo documentary on Dog Brothers (Ray) 5. Re: Nat Geo documentary on Dog Brothers (Andrew Maddox) 6. my rebuttal to don't teach the saudis (Hironaka) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:08:49 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] What criteria for who to teach? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: With the National Geographic documentary on us being aired this week (see http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1491.0 for details, it airs several more times) I have been distracted from participating in the thread that started about teaching FMA in Jordan. I need to leave in a little while to watch my son compete in a spelling bee, so for the moment I would like to begin my participation by sharing here something that coincidentally enough I wrote last week which I think addresses some of the themes in play. Please note that the piece is copyrighted and should anyone wish to print it elsewhere, he/she may do so so long as he/she notes the copyright and references our website www.dogbrothers.com The Adventure continues, Crafty Dog ============== "In Search of the Totality of Ritual & Reality"(c) by Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny What I have come to appreciate is that because Dog Brothers Martial Arts is a diverse system, people come to us for diverse reasons. Stated thus, the point is blindingly obvious, but that has not stopped me from not appreciating it as much as I could and should have-- and sometimes this has led to confusion. Now that I have begun thinking about it, it seems to me that there is a continuum, which in order to have a manner of talking, I divide into three sections. Some people come to us due to their interest in the Ritual Space, e.g. a Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack and/or the health, fun, artistic and philosophical aspects of our system. At the other end of the spectrum are people who are intensely interested in developing real world skills for the challenges of Reality. Typically these people are the Protectors. In between the two are people who may not have pressing immediate real world concerns, but like the idea of using the Ritual Space of a DB Gathering as a moral venue to explore and prepare their adrenal state skills should in Reality the flying fickle finger of fate ever reach out and touch them to say "You are on, right here, right now." In short, they seek to Totality of the Tao of the Dog. What I have come to appreciate is that many members of the first group explicitly prefer to have their experience free of what Carl Jung might call "the shadow issues" of real world applications. Similarly, many members of the second group seek precisely to deal effectively with the shadow of those serve or are in the thrall of the Dark. Typically these people prefer to have their experience devoid of what might playfully be called "martial arts & crafts", "dead patterns and tippy tap drills" and the like. And there is a third group --those who prefer a blend and a balance of the preceding two archetypes. Personally, this is where I find myself-- in search of the totality of ritual and reality. Because it contains unique questions, let us turn to matters that pertain specifically to the Reality end of the spectrum and its denizens-- the Protectors. As I get older I have come to appreciate with greater depth than before the moral complexities of teaching the reality dimension of a weapons oriented martial art that originated in jungle warfare. I sometimes joke about how I used to be a lawyer, but decided to go for the big bucks in Real Contact Stickfighting-- the meaning of course being that there really is not very much money in this path. Although it is my profession, I am not a mercenary. I do it because I believe in it as part of my path in walking with our Creator. And because I believe in it I respect the power of its shadow. There ARE people for whom this Art is not intended. The reality dimension of this Art is for those who serve the various paths of the Heart-- those who seek to Protect. The people for whom this Art is not intended I organize into three basic categories: 1) The emotionally unsound and/or immature; 2) Criminals; 3) Enemies of Respect, Reason, and Reciprocity e.g. Islamo-fascists and others of this meme. First, concerning the emotionally unsound it is my belief that teaching applied knife awakens some very dark energy, perhaps much more so than a gun. In a sound Protector awareness of this energy and be able to tap into it is a good and necessary thing, but in the emotionally unsound or immature the consequences can be tragic. For a fuller discussion of this point, see the clip titled "Rambling Ruminations: Knife" at http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/multimedia.html Second, obviously criminals (In defining criminality, I do distinguish malum per se from malum en prohibitum in this regard) also should not receive this training. Turning to the third category, I'd like to share a little story. In the year 2000 I received an email that in a simple sentence of imperfect English asked me to teach knife to his group. I responded by asking who he was. "a syrian kickboxing club" he replied. I did not respond further. In the aftermath of 911 I remember reading that some of the hijackers had received close quarter combat training from a American martial arts instructor (in Florida if I remember correctly) and wondered if the group that had approached me was part of the same conspiracy. Since then I have had a couple of other incidents wherein I was left wondering if someone had been pinging me. I mention these things to give a sense of where I'm coming from with regard to security issues. Yes, I know that with a knife what matters most is the will and the understanding of how to use it. Yes, I know that plenty of people out there are teaching really deadly knife technique. Yes, I know that most people have access to guns and that again, and again, that what matters most is the will and understanding of how to use it. I know this! I know this! To the extent that what we offer is generic, I suppose it is relevant to note that "everyone else is doing it"-although even that doesn't really suffice morally or spiritually. And to the extent that what we offer is not commonly found, and I think it is, we need to look to ourselves to determine right action, not to others. The criterion I use when teaching our Reality material (known variously as "DLO: Die Less Often" and "IGKEH Interface of Gun, Knife and EH") to the general public be it through our DVDs or personal instruction is to avoid teaching things that will improve the level of the bad guys-the thugs. For example, in DLO 1 we show the good guys something that thugs typically do- the "prison sewing machine" and what we think is a good way to solve both it and empty handed attacks on the same lines. In the DVD we most certainly sought to provoke awareness of the dangers of this kind of attack, but by so doing we did not raise the level of thugs-they already know how to do this after all -but sought to raise the awareness of good people to what we believe to be a primal reality of knife attacks. Still this leaves the question of how to teach the things which are not for everyone. As I have discussed previously (see e.g. our clip "Rambling Ruminations on Knife) training knife for application, as versus the Artistic/Ritual flow drills, disarm patterns, etc., can call to something very dark that sleeps within us and that once awakened in unsound people it can lead to tragic choices in pivotal moments. Indeed it seems to me quite likely that this is why many FMA teachers go the artistic route-the physical knowledge is transmitted, but cannot be readily activated without certain keys of understanding. One option certainly is simply not to go into these things-- but is this really a solution? In today's world even on "youtube" and its like we see an ever accelerating rate of dissemination of knowledge and information which proceeds with or without Dog Brothers Martial Arts and the Protectors whom we seek to serve. The first step as I see it is to filter whom we teach. The second I think is to anchor the physical training with morality. This latter point is an important discussion in its own right, but I do not enter into it now. Concerning the filtering, first and foremost the main line of defense is the traditional responsibility of the instructor to "smell" his (her) students. Of course filtering out those of bad intention or unsound emotions can be a good trick. After all, many people come to martial arts for some sort of emotional healing and we would like to be able to help them if we can. And people of bad intention have been known to dissemble about their true intentions. With the Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association the question presented becomes complicated by the absence of face-to-face relationship with many of our members. To a limited extent we already have been doing filtering for some time with the application for our Association, and the rigor of this process will be increased to the extent reasonably feasible. For those within the Association we will be developing a separate category dedicated to more complete study of these things for which the filtering process will be even more thorough. This filtering process is very much a work in progress. For example we would love to be able to simply run a criminal and immigrations records check on all applicants, but apparently this is not possible. We are looking into what it will take for applicants to provide it themselves. It is also important to understand that we are humble about what this work-in-progress for filtering can accomplish. To state the matter plainly, given the limitations of what we can bring to bear we know that we may not catch everyone who should be excluded. Similarly, there will be cases where we turn someone down unfairly because we cannot bring enough to bear to make a fair determination. By definition those who are unfairly turned down will not be offended or angry because they truly get who we are, what we are about, and what we are trying to accomplish. The Adventure continues, Guro Crafty --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:13:22 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Re: dont teach the saudis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Most excellent post, and definitely strikes to the heart of the matter. I know for myself, that I always hope that through the art, good instruction, and setting good example that I can help those who maybe when they first enter, arent the most saintly of people. Ive seen many students, who have come in with bad attitudes, change with time and with good personal instruction, to become not only good FMA players but better people. If anything, sometimes its the people we have a gut feeling not to teach who need the art the most, but if we make a snap judgment without getting to know the person, we've lost the chance to perhaps help another human being make that single life choice that puts them on a better path. Now of course, with really sketchy people, we do not start them off by showing the most deadly of techniques. Rather as time and trust build, so does the amount of the art that we show them. While I wish this was purely out of altruism, I have noticed that sketchy people have tended to be the guys who have the least patience for basics, and the real fundamentals that will make them a better fighter. Instead they tend to be the people who just want to do the cool stuff, want skill over night, hate cutting angles, hate doing bag work, hate doing push ups, etc... As such, if their attitudes dont change, they tend to drop out on their own. Especially once they start sparring, the helpful whacks seniors give them, and the push that we try to give, almost always gets interpreted, as oh these guys are keeping stuff from me, when the sad reality is, if only they put the effort into their basics, and all the boring stuff (e.g. conditioning), they would improve. Anyways, once again thanks for a great post Mr. Gatdula, you and your philosophies towards the art have always been an inspiration for my own path through the arts. Federico >Message: 4 >Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 11:23:21 -0800 (PST) >From: maurice gatdula >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] Re: dont teach the saudis >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >"I am concerned for several reasons. Yes, they are allies. However as everybody knows, 19 of the 9/11 highjackers were from Saudi. Several of them trained at a martial arts school in Florida. I work in a field where it is possible for me or a coworker to encounter such a person. The knife techniques of Filipino martial arts in the wrong hands is a scary > thought. I believe the utmost oversight is called for." > > >i want to say something racist about this, statement, that watch out if you teach the saudis. > > the attacker of the oklahoma bombing is a white christian guy, who was a member of the US Army. using the "dont teach the saudis" idea, dont teach a white man, dont teach a christian, dont teach a military man, oh, he was a man right, dont teach men. that is an ignorant way of selection. > > how about padilla, he is a mexican, so we shouldnt teach a mexican either right? no wait, he is a US citizen, so again, dont teach an american. > > the DC sniper, he was military too right? no, he is american, and he is black, so lets dont teach a black american who was military. > > and they are muslim so dont teach a muslim. forget that some of this art, came to you from a muslim. > > the unabomber, he is american, he was a white man, and he hated america. skin heads out here in california, they hate the US government, which oppressed the white man. so who is the real enemy? > > the enemy of the FMA is commericalism. teach as many people as you can, with no commitment from them, for a short amount of time, teach them through your videos, your seminars when your in a country for three days and boom...your out to the next state or kenpo school. who cares the background of these guys, or even if they can fight good enough to represent your style, or if they can fight good enough to save his family members or his own behind. some of us (not me) have students who are certified as teachers and cant even fight his way in a paper bag, and i would say that you know it, but the truth is, you really dont know, because the method of teaching the FMA is very unpersonal, and the real grandmaster around here, is the man named "dollar bill". > > dont worry about if the guy you teach is going to kill a bouncer in the club, or hijack a plane or stab a group of teenagers after you have beat them up. yes, we all regret it if our student hurts another person with the skills we teach him. BUT the real problem is, you gave up the most dangerous of your style and you dont know this guy. there is no commitment from the student because there is no commitment from the teacher. he is making bucks and building websites to sell certifications. students spend less than 200 hours a year with you, you cannot get to know them well enough as a martial student to train them and get to know them well. so what will you do? run "proverify"? check finger prints? call his old teachers? the teacher-student relationship have become a business-customer relationship. this is the reason why your art gets to the wrong hands. but a student can always turn bad, but the way is being taught, anyone can get this art. > > if you look at a mans religion or his country, that sir, are a racist. tell you want, dont go to the middle east, go to europe. they have lots of young, christian, white bald headed young men, who will make very strong students for your FMA. > > >-- __--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net >Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima > >Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com >Standard disclaimers apply. >Remember September 11. > >End of Eskrima Digest --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 08:42:02 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Nat Geo documentary on Dog Brothers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Here's the times for National Geographic's documentary "Fight Club" (not my choice for a name!) on the Dog Brothers: http://channel.nationalgeographic.com:80/channel/ET/popup/200801232100.html That's the Eastern Time (ET in the link above) Here's the Pacific Time (PT in the link below) http://channel.nationalgeographic.com:80/channel/PT/popup/200801232100.html Wednesday January 23 6 pm and 9 pm PT (9 pm and 12 am ET) Saturday January 26 7 pm and 10 pm PT (10 pm and 1 am ET) Monday January 28 10 am PT (1 pm ET) Wednesday January 30 2 pm PT (5 pm ET) Double check your local listings to make sure that there have been no changes. The Adventure continues! Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 4 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Nat Geo documentary on Dog Brothers To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:23:00 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Here's the times for National Geographic's documentary "Fight Club" (not my > choice for a name!) on the Dog Brothers: Congrats on getting "published" yet again. Couldn't happen to a more deserving eskrimador... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:07:07 +0000 (UTC) From: Andrew Maddox To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Nat Geo documentary on Dog Brothers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Marc Denny wrote: > Here's the times for National Geographic's documentary "Fight Club" (not my > choice for a name!) on the Dog Brothers: Hey, congratulations, that's pretty big time coverage - are you (and the other Bros and Sistern) happy with the final cut? Did they come out with a decent product, one that you like? In any case, I'm setting the VCR for tonight, in case I crash before airtime (as has been known to happen, I used to be a night owl but...) > Saturday January 26 7 pm and 10 pm PT (10 pm and 1 am ET) > > Double check your local listings to make sure that there have been no > changes. Definitely. And on a side note, I haven;t checked recently - are there any Canine Brethren active in the Washington, DC area these days? I'm thinking that joining up with such like-minded nutballs ;-) might be just what me MA need to kickstart my practice. Been in something of a rut for a couple years now... Congrats again, Marc and all! afm -- Andrew Maddox, madsox2k at freeshell dot org Practitioner of Unaffiliated Martial Arts But really just, like, this guy, y'know? --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Hironaka" To: Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 16:28:07 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] my rebuttal to don't teach the saudis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I was waiting for this response. I knew it would come. First, let me apologize for responding to this in open forum. However because I was besmirched in public I will defend myself in public. Mr Gatdula, I will start with what we agree upon. You:" the enemy of the FMA is commericalism. teach as many people as you can, with no commitment from them, for a short amount of time, teach them through your videos, your seminars when your in a country for three days and boom...your out to the next state or kenpo school. who cares the background of these guys, or even if they can fight good enough to represent your style, or if they can fight good enough to save his family members or his own behind. some of us (not me) have students who are certified as teachers and cant even fight his way in a paper bag, and i would say that you know it, but the truth is, you really dont know, because the method of teaching the FMA is very unpersonal, and the real grandmaster around here, is the man named "dollar bill"." Me: I agree whole heartedly. To me an instructor/student relationship is life long. As an instructor you are there to guide and mold your student in a moral martial way. Then when your student has matured, you are there to advise him when needed. This is such a commitment that I have no students outside of my family. Now, as to where we disagree. I never said don't teach the Saudis. I inquired if the man had a method of screening his students so as not to teach terrorists. It is not an unreasonable question. It has happened before. You: " if you look at a mans religion or his country, that sir, are a racist. tell you want, dont go to the middle east, go to europe. they have lots of young, christian, white bald headed young men, who will make very strong students for your FMA." Me: In law enforcement we use something called a profile. Profiling is a tool used to focus a limited amount of resources on a given problem. It is the compiling of common characteristics to form a picture of the most likely suspect/s. For instance, if we were looking for eco-terrorists, the "profile" is a college age, upper middle class, white, male or female. This is not to say, if you are a college age, upper middle class, white, male or female; you have a propensity to commit this type of crime. What this means is that upon examination of past crimes of this type, these are the characteristics the perpetrators have shared. To ignore this would waste a lot of time and resources looking at a larger pool of suspects than necessary. Do not confuse this with racial profiling. Racial profiling is the targeting of an individual for arrest strictly on the basis of their race or ethnicity. In recent years the term profiling has come to mean the taking of race or ethnicity into consideration at all. This is nonsense. To target an individual solely on the basis of race or ethnicity serves no legitimate purpose. If the goal is to enforce US laws, and to provide for the safety and security of the public, how does this practice accomplish that? Conversely, to not acknowledge the racial, ethnic, or religious component of Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups does not serve our cause either. The terrorist highjackings on 9/11 were committed by 19 young males of Middle Eastern descent, claiming to be followers of Islam. The men were also members of the terrorist organization, Al Qaeda. The perpetrators of the 7/7 bombings in London also share these characteristics. The suspects in the airport attack in London also share these characteristics. Representatives of the group Al Qaeda have acknowledged their role in the 9/11 highjackings as well as the 7/7 bombings in London. They have also stated they intend to commit more acts of terrorism against the United States. We would be negligent in our duty if we did not take these facts into consideration. Nevertheless, if the sole factor of one's suspicion is because the subject is of Middle Eastern descent or obviously a follower of Islam, this does not amount to any reasonable suspicion. One cannot build reasonable suspicion on just any one factor. One must bring into account the totality of the circumstances. For instance, a young, Middle Eastern male purchases a one way ticket on the same day of travel. This same subject appears nervous (i.e. sweating, trembling, stuttering). The subject is also in the company of others that meet this same description. Any of these circumstances alone do not amount to anything, but together they can be reasonable suspicion. Unfortunately, it is also more than likely our adversaries are aware of this profile and will try to recruit members who do not fit it. While keeping this in mind, we would still be remiss to ignore the current profile. You: " how about padilla, he is a mexican, so we shouldnt teach a mexican either right? no wait, he is a US citizen, so again, dont teach an american." Me: Padilla is a convert to radical Islam. He was convicted on terrorism charges. I would agree it is a bad idea to teach him how to fight. You:" the attacker of the oklahoma bombing is a white christian guy, who was a member of the US Army. using the "dont teach the saudis" idea, dont teach a white man, dont teach a christian, dont teach a military man, oh, he was a man right, dont teach men. that is an ignorant way of selection." Me: McVeigh (sp?) was convicted and summarily executed for his crimes. I would also agree it would have been a bad idea to teach him how to fight. He was a wacko right wing militia member. This group is outside the scope of my employment, so I let other professionals worry about them. You:" the DC sniper, he was military too right? no, he is american, and he is black, so lets dont teach a black american who was military. Me: Malvo, another convert to radical Islam who then perverted the mind of his stepson. I would agree it is a bad idea to teach him how to fight. You:" the unabomber, he is american, he was a white man, and he hated america. skin heads out here in california, they hate the US government, which oppressed the white man. so who is the real enemy?" Me: Kazynski, convicted of murder on several counts. He was an environmentalist wacko. I would agree it is a bad idea to teach him how to fight. Ecoterrorism is also outside the scope of my employment, so I let other professionals worry about them. I would say the same for the Neo-Nazis and Skinheads. You:" dont worry about if the guy you teach is going to kill a bouncer in the club, or hijack a plane or stab a group of teenagers after you have beat them up. yes, we all regret it if our student hurts another person with the skills we teach him" Me:" I disagree completely with this. If you have the kind of instructor/student relationship I described above, you should be able to see what kind of person your student is before teaching him anything but the most basic of techniques. You can hide your head in the sand if you want to. I do not have that luxury. There are men out there who are sworn to convert or kill the nonbelievers. My job is to combat it. If you want to understand where I am coming from you should read Grossman's essay On wolves and Sheepdogs. If you are still reading this, thank you for your time. I too hate these long responses and I never dreamed I would be writing one. This is the last I will say on the subject. Joe Hironaka --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest