Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:55:04 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #25 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: training the "iffy" student (Kim Satterfield) 2. Fwd: Article Submission: Muay Lao the forgotten Art of kickboxing (MartialArtsResource) 3. FMA groups in South Georgia/No. Florida area (Lawrence, Marc J.) 4. Bad people trying to learn FMA (Hironaka) 5. RE: FMA groups in South Georgia/No. Florida area (Sonny Padilla) 6. Re: background check of a student (maurice gatdula) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:59:46 -0800 (PST) From: Kim Satterfield To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: training the "iffy" student Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Very nice post, Mike, I don't think it could have been said better. One thing we seem to forget sometimes is the fact that a lot (a LOT) of the past masters we revere were people that were, shall we say, not exactly boy scouts...that's how they got the knowledge in the first place, folks. They "got in the water," and acquired their skills the only way possible, by testing themselves. As for controlling the student population we have at the Midwest School of Eskrima, we are very picky about who we let in because we owe that to the founder of our system, Suro Mike Inay, who insisted on quality control in how the art was passed on, and to whom. We want people who will honor the art and the lineage, and continue that lineage, THAT is why we don't accept just anyone who applies. A criminal bent on hurting people will not want to spend the necessary time needed to master a martial art; there are much simpler ways to accomplish their goal. I agree totally with what Mike said about training the "stupid" student, though...the person who would misuse their training in situations where deadly force wasn't really warranted, but for whatever reason (the need to dominate, the need to prove a point) a serious lack of judgment leads them to jump passed more reasonable options and hurt someone needlessly. These are the people we need to be cautious of; if we teach someone who triggers our radar, but we ignore the warning signs (again, usually obvious signs of the bully, the unstable, etc.) and teach them anyway, we could end up answering for our own lack of judgment in court. Being an instructor of deadly skills is a public trust, and we are responsible to the public for our actions and the actions of those we may train despite our better judgment, whether we like it or not. Kim Message: 3 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:17:20 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Casto Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Bad people trying to learn FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net One of the 9/11 terrorists had trained with an FMA instructor ... did it help him in some way? Probably not. Could/would he have done the same thing without that FMA training? Almost certainly. But it's still food for thought ... some of the bad guys are actually seeking out better instruction. I knew a guy once, a fellow Eskrimador, who told me that when he was young he ran with a gang and they did some "knife training" drills. The drills were simple but effective - especially within the parameters of their intended purpose. Mostly what they drilled was concealment and getting a quick, clean cut from concealment with minimal risk of anyone seeing the blade or the target realizing he'd been cut. The objective was this: cut the target somewhere like the arm, the blade is kept sharp enough that the target won't immediately feel it, follow the target until he (or someone else) notices he's cut, in the confusion caused by the "sudden appearance of a cut" grab target's wallet and vanish into crowd. This guy went on to say, though, that he's very glad none of the guys in his gang had had any FMA training because they might have decided to up the ante if they had some training and it may have cost some targets more than a few stitches and their wallet. HOWEVER ... the thing more pressing problem I see is this: I'm marginally worried about the "bad guy" coming to train both from a moral and legal standpoint - if he attacks someone with a blade and, during the investigation, it comes out that he had "blade training" from me then I end up in court, too (may or may not be criminal charges but a civil suit would suck, too). For the same moral/legal reasons, though, I'm far more concerned with the "stupid guy" coming to train with me. This guy probably won't have a record but he's got the kind of personality that can lead to this: (a) he gets some "blade training" and (b) decides to carry a blade or if he already carries one he becomes much more likely to actually think about pulling it under stress then (c) he pulls it and stabs someone in a situation that should have been dealt with via some other, less harmful means. If that happens and they find out he trained with me then, oops, I'm back in court again for one reason or another and none of it is going to be much fun for me. This has happened at least once recently that I'm aware of - a guy stabbed a bouncer in a bar a couple of years ago (if I remember correctly, it happened in NYC and the bouncer died) and the guy's FMA instructor wound up in legal hot water. But I think several people have already hit the nail on the head in this discussion. A background check doesn't hurt. But the most important thing to use is common sense. I recently had to "fire" a student. This guy had come in and watched several classes and then actually attended a few. There was a strange vibe (that everyone in the school felt) about the guy from day one. His first couple of classes, he was training with one of my senior students, Les, running the class because I was out of town. Les called and told me the guy seemed a little "off." I feel obligated to make these kinds of judgments from first-hand knowledge so I filed Les's observations into the "keep in mind" category and when I got back to town this guy came to class. It quickly became apparent in his words/manner that he didn't have a solid rooting in reality. I got the distinct impression that he has some schizophrenic tendencies. Meds might help but, for all I know, he's already on meds and that's why he's able to function to the extent that he does in society. Anyway, after that class, I told him he wasn't cut out for training with me. If I don't feel like I can trust someone, then I don't train them. The teacher/student relationship is no different from any other relationship. Without trust, there is *no* relationship. Mike In the words of the late, great John Belushi, "Wise Up" --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 06:02:11 -0800 From: MartialArtsResource To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Fwd: Article Submission: Muay Lao the forgotten Art of kickboxing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Muay Lao, the forgotten art of kickboxing By Antonio Graceffo "You can gain extra power on your kicks by throwing your kicking arm down, but you need to protect your face with a cross arm defense." Explained Adjarn Ngern, at the national kick boxing stadium in Vientiane, Lao. In Tae Kwan Do and a lot of other kicking arts, the right hand comes down when you kick. This is the moment when a good boxer should step in and punch the kicker in the face. Adjarn Ngern was the first person ever to show me the cross arm defense, basically wrapping your free arm across your face to cover up when you kick. This gives you safety and power. It was my first day of learning Muay Lao and I wondered what else they had to offer. For years I had been training off and on in Thailand and Cambodia. I had heard that the national sport in Lao was called Muay Lao, but I didn't know anyone who had actually gone there for training. Lao is a sleepy country. The population is less than six million and nearly all of the development is in the capitol, Vientiane, which is a cute, peaceful city which feels like a small town in the US from the 1950s. Apart from the docile feeling in the air, Lao is surprisingly good for training. There is a weight lifting gym located in a tenement block, beside the national sports stadium, where you can do your strength training for a small donation of fifty cents per day. You can get a bed in a dormitory for $3 a day or stay in a hotel, as I do, private room, TV, cable, hot water, private bath, and air-conditioning, for $12 per night. Food is excellent in Lao, French, Thai, Chinese, Indian, Lao or western, and most meals in a restaurant will cost you about $2.50. You could probably live even cheaper if you wanted to eat the street food which would probably run you less than a dollar per meal. In Lao, they accept US dollars, Thai Baht, or their local currency, Kip. Muay Lao training costs 200 thai Baht, about $6 USD per session, for private training. The travel guides were all dead wrong about the Muay Lao training. Most books said it was held at the national sports stadium in Vientiane. Actually, the Muay Lao training is held at the National Muay Lao stadium, which is located about fifteen or twenty minutes outside of the city. The stadium boasts a full size ring, a row of kick bags, and a row of uppercut bags mounted on the wall. The coaches are excellent in the ring working the pads with you. Adjarn Ngern, the head coach of the Lao National Muay Lao Team, told me that Muay Lao is a much smaller sport in Lao than is Muay Thai in Thailand. Professional fights are only held in the National Stadium twice per month. There are only a handful of registered professional fighters in the whole country. "How is Muay Lao different than Muay Thai?" I asked. "It's exactly the same." Said the Adjarn. "Cambodians are angry abut the name Muay Thai. They feel they invented kickboxing and it should be called by the Cambodian name, Bradal Serey, not Muay Thai. What do you think of that?" Without a second's hesitation he answered, "Muay Thai was invented in Cambodia, but Thailand has the money and got famous." The Adjarn had me start with warm up exercise, a very complete stretching routine which covered all parts of the body, especially the neck and shoulders where injuries can occur in kick boxing. He watched me shadow boxing for a few minutes then asked, confused "Do you also kick?" I think your fist martial art stays with you forever. You can take the boy out of Brooklyn, but you can't take the Brooklyn out of the boy. No matter how long I train in Asia, I will always look like a boxer or street fighter. We readjusted my stance. He didn't want me to hold my hands next to my face like I do in boxing. Instead, he wanted the lead hand out in front and a bit lower than what I do for boxing. He also didn't want the hands touching my face in case I was punched or kicked and it would force me to hit myself. Next, we worked combinations on the uppercut bag one, two, and upper cut switching off left hand upper cut and right hand upper cut. He was excellent about correcting my form while I trained. Adjarn made me turn out my back foot on straight punches, and go up on my toes at impact. On the Upper cut, he also had me up on my toes, and made me turn my heel in. We transitioned to kicks, on the bag. The important point which he kept stressing here was to get up on the toes of your base foot, and rotate the foot with the kick. Next, you must be careful to twist your hip and butt into the kick. The leg must travel parallel to the ground, and strike at an almost ninety degree angle, kicking IN not UP like in a Tae Kwan Do kick. Of course, in Muay Lao, like in Muay Thai, the roundhouse strikes with the shin. Other combinations we worked on required me to kick off the front leg. A lot of teachers tell you to hop, scoot the front leg back, then kick with the front leg. Adjarn Ngern wanted me to minimize this hopping and leg shuffling. He told me to only to slide my left leg back slightly, then kick off of it. The right leg didn't really move at all. It felt awkward at first, but it was a good technique. It was faster and less exhausting than the more common hop and shuffle. It just took a lot of practice for me to get it. To save even more time, he showed me that when the left leg hit, instead of bringing it back, just bring it straight down to the ground. Now you are in close so immediately throw an overhand elbow with the right arm. With the knee kick, Adjarn Ngern always wanted to lead hand straight out. You could use this hand to measure distance, and time your strike. When your left hand just about makes contact with the opponent, step in and decimate him with your right knee. The extended arm is also a good defensive tactic. This way if your opponent takes this opportunity to throw an elbow or a punch, you could catch it with your lead hand, long before it hits you. In fact, you could catch/deflect his elbow with your floating lead hand, and still complete your knee strike. In that instance, the power would be multiplied by the fact that your opponent would be coming forward with his own strike. This would be one of those knees to the solar plexus which could end a fight. Once again, when reaching out with your left/lead hand, you could either use your right hand to do the cross face defense, as you did in the kick, or you could throw the right hand down and back to add extra power to the knee. The lead hand can be used to grab the back of the opponent's head and pull him into the knee strike. And remember to go up on the toes of the base leg to get those last few extra inches of extension and power. After you have thrown the knee, you can step trough with an elbow because you have already closed the distance. To help me get up on my toes and swing my hips, the coach and one of the fighters stood behind me, twisting my legs and hips and trying to get my position right. It was a lot to remember, and there was nothing natural about having two men twisting and prodding my body while I practiced. It was like a dance lesson gone wrong. Adjarn had me hold the bag and do left right knee combinations, fast. But, he kept stressing that each of the knees had to be a real technique, a solid knee strike. Most people who practice the fast alternating knees on the bag just barely touch the bag with each knee, then shuffle and throw the next one. But this type of exercise has nothing to do with real fighting. It's not just aerobics. In a fight every technique must be right. Every knee strike must count. Blocking, the knee can be used several different ways. One common option is to block a kick by brining the knee straight up, and allowing your shin to hit the opponent's shin as he kicks. A more offensive block is to quickly raise your knee higher than the attacker's kicking leg, and bring you knee straight down into his leg, hitting him with your knee on his thing, just above his knee. This could render his leg useless for the rest of the fight. Once, again, after you have blocked, you have already closed distance, so the quickest follow up is to bring your leg straight back to the floor and step in with a close elbow. Some coaches tell you to knee strike with your foot at a 90 degree angle. Other coaches tell you to point your foot at the floor. Both camps claim that they get more power. I don't think there is a clear answer on which is better. This coach wanted the foot pointed at the ground. With both a knee and a kick one more thing to remember is to arch your back to get the extra extension and power. The coach taught me a fake. He did a shuffle, as if getting ready to kick with his left, lead foot, but instead, he threw a punch to the face. "If you see the punch coming you can use Teep to protect yourself because your leg is longer than his arm." Explained Adjarn Ngern, teaching the push kick. When executing a push kick, the toes must be curled back and you strike with the ball of the foot. It is really hard to do because you have to develop the muscles in your feet. I can't curl my toes back at will. Teep can also be done with the heel of the foot, but Adjarn Ngern claimed that it wasn't as powerful. Muay Thai Boran practitioners find that the heel of the foot works just fine, however. Very few people in Lao speak any English at all. Most people in Vientiane, including Adjarn Ngern, speak excellent Thai. So I was able to communicate with him in Thai. Thus far, I was impressed with Adjarn Ngern and how modern his training and thinking was. He was one of the few coaches I had worked with in Asia who could really analyze and discuss the sport of fighting. But his old-school training suddenly showed when he did the thing where he put rope in his mouth and used his neck to lift a heavy bucket full of cement. He invited me to try it next, but one look at his used saliva dripping off the rope made me thing twice about it. "Aren't you going to boil that rope?" I asked. We opted to move on to the next phase of training instead. In Muay Lao, as in Muay Thai the fighters often lock up, grappling. They grab each other behind the back of the neck and struggle to get dominance over the opponent. It is amazing how many throws a good fighter can do from this position. A significant component in learning Muay Lao is practicing grappling from the neck. The goal in Muay grappling is to achieve the dominant position, which means, getting your two hands on the inside. The two fighters start with one in and one out, then they compete to get both hands inside. Once you have both hands inside, you can plant your elbows in your opponent's chest, leverage his head and take him. In any type of fighting, if you want to control a man, grabbing the back of his neck is good because then you are pulling against muscle, not bone. Grabbing higher on the head gives you extended leverage, multiplying your power. Post your hips back, bend at the knees and bring your entire body weight to bear on his neck muscles. Adjarn Ngern showed me how you could grab the back of the head with one hand and slide your hand down under the elbow for leverage. Then in one quick, jerking motion, you could pull down on the head and push up on the elbows at the same time and throw the man. In wrestling never let your legs stand square, one foot beside the other or you have no base no balance and can easily be knocked down. Another exercise we worked on, one man held his hands behind his back and the other man tried to throw him. It is a simple technique, step out on the right, throw on the left. Step out on the left, throw on the right. Training in Lao was just one more piece of the puzzle. The art of kickboxing is widely practiced in Lao, Cambodia, Thailand, and Burma. Only by training in all four countries could I get a good overview of the art. So, Burma was next. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:40:04 -0600 From: "Lawrence, Marc J." To: Subject: [Eskrima] FMA groups in South Georgia/No. Florida area Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To All, One my students has been sent for the next 3 months to the Federal LEO academy and wants to continue training and working out in FMA. Does anyone know of anybody in the South Georgia/North Florida area? Salamat Po Guro Marc PAKAMUT-Torrance --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Hironaka" To: Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:05:02 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Bad people trying to learn FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I can't let this go unchallenged. "The bad guys certainly know as much or more than most of us when it comes to hurting people. Are we talking about offensive knife skills? The pointy end goes into the other guy, repeat till he stops twitching. There are countless inmates and ex-inmates all over the world that have the knowledge and most notable the real life experience of using a blade on someone else. They have even been known to study anatomy books to learn the best targets. I'd also wager most FMA instructors have never and will never be in a fight with blades of any type, and as such are merely dealing with martial theory. The bad people do not have time for theories. They need to do their business as fast and effortlessly as they can. And the best way to learn that is from someone who has really done it." Really? If you truly believe this, why bother studying a martial art? If criminals are able to figure out an equal or more effective way to fight, why waste your time, money, and effort? Certainly, the martial arts world is full self promoting fakes, charlatans, and phony tough guys. This is why the phrase buyer beware is so important. As far as I know, Guro Dan Inosanto has never stuck a knife into anybody, but I trust what he says with my life. What makes a successful criminal so dangerous is they have the predator mindset. They have learned the art of target acquisition. Cull the weak from the herd and attack out of nowhere with ruthless overwhelming force. To quote Phil Mesina, "The only thing a predator fears is another predator." Joe Hironaka --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Sonny Padilla To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] FMA groups in South Georgia/No. Florida area Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:15:05 -0200 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ama Guro Raffy Pambuan is in Orlando, if interested contact me privately for his contact number. His PAL techniques might be of interest to all LEO's. Sonny Padilla> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:40:04 -0600> From: marc.lawrence@ngc.com> To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net> Subject: [Eskrima] FMA groups in South Georgia/No. Florida area> > To All,> One my students has been sent for the next 3 months to the Federal LEO> academy and wants to continue training and working out in FMA. Does> anyone know of anybody in the South Georgia/North Florida area?> Salamat Po> Guro Marc> PAKAMUT-Torrance> _______________________________________________> Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply> Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _________________________________________________________________ --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:25:14 -0800 (PST) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: background check of a student Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i dont know about doing background check of a martial arts student. i have been to jail. out of my 7 assistant instructors, three of them have a background, two was on parole when they started training with me. (only one of the three is a muslim.) i had a student one time who use to be "aryan", with tatoos of lightning bolts and everything. one of my private lesson students is in a mexican gang (i forgot which one), and i say "is" because even that he is 50, you will always be, but he doesnt sell drugs or hurt people. i had a student one time who beat somebody up and went to jail, but it was self defense. my point is, what is more important than looking at his appearance, and background (people change) is you have to see the students heart. each of my students trains just basic skills for a long time, before they start to learn the meat of the art. which is why the saying, under a master, you earn your knowledge. the student cannot come in your place and pay for information, they pay you to train them, and you give them what you want, when you want. teaching to some people is just business, "they want real self-defense, and my job is to teach them"--fine. but there is some responsiblity you have as a teacher also. dont believe me, ask the guy who sells guns. of course he will make more money if he just sold guns to any guy with money. but he makes you fill out forms and wait (sometimes i dont think thats enough). shoot, even the dog in the street is going to check you out before he sells you one. there is tradition in these arts for a reason. people get so excited about learning and then going out to show the world what they know, they forget that part of the art, tradition. even those people who say, pure self-defense, have a tradition of there own, but all FMA teachers should at least learn a little about the culture and philosophy of the art, and try it out. btw, if you look at the old masters, each of them probably killed somebody one time or another, even over a woman or a money. would you stop studying under them if you knew? --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest