Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 02:48:21 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #31 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Ambush/Stealth Attacks (bgdebuque) 2. Who to Teach (Steven Lefebvre) 3. As the blade stabs , , , (Marc Denny) 4. Re: As the blade stabs , , , (B Katz) 5. Re: As the blade stabs , , , (Ray) 6. Re: As the blade stabs , , , (B Katz) 7. Re: Re: Ambush/Stealth Attacks (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 23:40:42 -0500 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Ambush/Stealth Attacks Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I had in front of me right now a copy of FM 21-150, Hand-to-Hand Combat, published by the Department of the Army in June 1954 (probably way before most of us who hang out in this forum were born). To give you an example of the material it contains, Par. 45.b, Chapter 4, says: "You can attact the throat with either a thrust or a slash. The thrust is the most effective if the knife is driven into the base of the throat just below the Adam's apple (fig. 37). This type of blow cuts the jugular vein and results in instant death. A slash to either side of the neck cuts the carotid artery, which carries the blood to the brain. Your opponent will die from loss of blood within a few seconds." The abovementioned Figure 37 shows a photograph of a fully uniformed soldier thrusting a knife right below the Adam's Apple of a half-naked unarmed soldier. This variety of martial arts material presentation, therefore, is not really a recent "Internet" phenomenon. It has been there even before most of us were born. The martial artists mentioned below were probably just echoing the martial arts instruction they have received during their formative years in the martial arts. Was the US Army trying to impress 14-year olds when they published this material? I doubt it. They were trying to turn 18-year olds into effective warriors.... It might be a good idea, therefore, to use as a "Who to Teach?" moral benchmark for the FMA the same moral criteria the military establishment uses in selecting its warriors. After all, the range of stuff they teach is much, much deadlier than what the FMA can offer... > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 12:17:41 +0100 (GMT+01:00) > From: "billlowery@tinyonline.co.uk" > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] Ambush/stealth attacks > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > >Just yesterday I saw a clip posted by an instructor of a reputable > system wherein he showed great skill in killing combinations on an > unarmed man with the knife. < > > > A couple of years later I was talking to one of the instructors who > had not gone. He had been "converted" to the sysem due to the fact that > it was an "assassins" art. The art was based around stealth draws and > attacks. The instructor had that shiny eyed look of someone who had > seen the light. > > The overall impression I was left with was the marketing had been > designed to appeal to 14 year old boys, who wear combat pants and play > video games! Apprarently the first hour of the most recent seminar had > been given over to explaining why the full rig (to carry ALL of the > training knives) should be bought rather than acquiring it piecemeal. > > I have no wish to assassinate anyone. I am interested, firstly, in > being able to protect myself against a knife wielding attacker, not > earn some money on the side taking out for the guy with the big bucks ;- > ) > > So to answer one of your questions; why is he putting the clip on > the internet? It seems to me to simply impress the kids. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Steven Lefebvre To: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:25:28 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Who to Teach Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello All, Interesting topic “Who to Teach”! Over the years the problem of teaching the “wrong” person has come up in various manners. The FMA like all martial arts skills can be utilized for “ill intent” yet it is still a rare thing to see any art truly being used and or abused by criminals or others. With the rise of multimedia formats, books, the internet etc. information flows freely around the globe, sorry to say that the genie is out of the bag and there is no way to put it back in, but on the good side look at what has come from it. Arts we may never have heard of before now accept us for training, styles learning from each other, evolution of arts is in process constantly and we all gain from it. So if this is a problem here are a few questions to think about: If you are worried about teaching the wrong person, what have you done or are you doing to prevent this situation from happening? What screening process do you have in place to get appropriate information from a prospective student that will give you insight into their purpose for training? Once accepted does this process continue? For how long? Again great topic! Gumagalang Guro Steve L. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 06:44:43 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] As the blade stabs , , , Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof Bill: Long years of experience have taught me that it is easy for people to misunderstand. Without naming it, your comments clearly describe a particular system other than the particular teacher/system I had in mind in my post. Therefore my doggy nose tells me that there is more than the usual potential for misunderstanding-- and so I take a moment to pre-empt such misunderstanding before they get going. Unfortunately, your quote of my words breaks off the point right before the point I was trying to make, which was the open showing of covert draw, ambush initiation technique on the internet. Thus my concern is that someone reading your post could think I was criticizing showing anything at all having to do with knife versus empty hand. This is not the case. Indeed I too have shown knife versus empty hand. Anyone familiar with our promo clip for our DVD "Die Less Often: Intro to the Interface of Gun, Knife and Empty Hand" http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/multimedia.html can see that we show the type of attack often called "the prison sewing machine". My thinking was to show good people, many of whom train FMA knife defense skills, the primal challenge posed by common thug attacks. In that thugs already know this sort of attack, I do not raise their level by showing it! -- only the level of awareness of good people that this is the sort of thing with which they may have to contend. I have had many people comment explicitly about this segment of the promo clip and how it had changed their understanding. This is good. I work with many corrections officers and have been trained by some of the finest teachers on the planet: Guro Inosanto, Punong Guro Edgar Sulite, Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje, Tuhon Chris Sayoc, and GM Myung Gyi. Indeed, I am certified by Guro Inosanto and PG Edgar, and Tuhon Chris has authorized me to use my understanding of Sayoc Kali in Dog Brothers Martial Arts. -- so I do not lack for covert draws and ambush attacks that I could show. In my opinion though, such things are not for the internet and other casual public dissemination. Rather they are for suitable students-- not because the students may have need of covert draw and ambush attacks, but for these students to understand just how sneakily a knife can be brought into play. This knowledge calls to a shadow that lurks in the heart of all men, and should be shown with care. The Adventure continues, Crafty Dog Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 > From: "billlowery@tinyonline.co.uk" >> Subject: [Eskrima] Ambush/stealth attacks > > >>Just yesterday I saw a clip posted by an instructor of a reputable > system wherein he showed great skill in killing combinations on an > unarmed man with the knife. < > > Hi Marc, > > Some time ago a "new" FMA system was introduced into the UK. Myself > and a number of instructors I know didn't go to the first seminar due > to its proximity to Christmas (2 weeks) cost (£100 for one day) and the > fact that the system appeared to be selling itself based on its use in > a hollywood film. > > A couple of years later I was talking to one of the instructors who > had not gone. He had been "converted" to the sysem due to the fact that > it was an "assassins" art. The art was based around stealth draws and > attacks. The instructor had that shiny eyed look of someone who had > seen the light. > > The overall impression I was left with was the marketing had been > designed to appeal to 14 year old boys, who wear combat pants and play > video games! Apprarently the first hour of the most recent seminar had > been given over to explaining why the full rig (to carry ALL of the > training knives) should be bought rather than acquiring it piecemeal. > > I have no wish to assassinate anyone. I am interested, firstly, in > being able to protect myself against a knife wielding attacker, not > earn some money on the side taking out for the guy with the big bucks ;- > ) > > So to answer one of your questions; why is he putting the clip on > the internet? It seems to me to simply impress the kids. > > Bill --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 14:02:15 -0800 (PST) From: B Katz Subject: Re: [Eskrima] As the blade stabs , , , To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Prison sewing machine... great analogy!! We train quite a bit empty-hand vs. a knife and of all the attacks we deal with this is the one we get nailed by the most! I don't know if this is because Guro Ron watches a lot of "Lock-up" on MSNBC or if it it really that hard to defend against, but I can, at best, manage about an 85% success rate against it. Which is still fatally wounded. www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives --__--__-- Message: 5 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] As the blade stabs , , , To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 14:56:53 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Prison sewing machine... great analogy!! We train quite a bit empty-hand vs. a knife and of all the attacks we deal with this is the one we get nailed by the most! I don't know if this is because Guro Ron watches a lot of "Lock-up" on MSNBC or if it it really that hard to defend against, but I can, at best, manage about an 85% success rate against it. Which is still fatally wounded. >> Want to see that drop to below 50%? Have the attacker flick toward your eyes with a bandana or towel or jacket, or toss sand or dirt toward your eyes. Some of the old timers used to go around with a bit of sand in their live-hand front pocket for just that purpose. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:05:19 -0800 (PST) From: B Katz Subject: Re: [Eskrima] As the blade stabs , , , To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Kim is a HUUUUGE fan of the eye-stab!! I've just learned to duck my forehead into his fingertips! www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Ambush/Stealth Attacks To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 16:23:18 -0800 (PST) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I had in front of me right now a copy of FM 21-150, Hand-to-Hand Combat, > published by the Department of the Army in June 1954 (probably way before > most of us who hang out in this forum were born). ... > This variety of martial arts material presentation, therefore, is not really > a recent "Internet" phenomenon. It has been there even before most of us > were born. The martial artists mentioned below were probably just echoing > the martial arts instruction they have received during their formative years > in the martial arts. This was -after- I was born. Army manuals were not readily available to civilians in the 1950s and 60s, so not sure this is really a good example. But you're right that the Internet has changed the world in which we live in. Kids of grade school age can easily learn how to build bombs from common household products without even leaving their rooms. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. 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