Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 02:48:22 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #41 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: A Tale of Two Tournaments (B Katz) 2. Re: A Tale of Two Tournaments (Ramon Espinosa) 3. Re: A Tale of Two Tournaments (Daniel Arola) 4. Re: A Tale of Two Tournaments (jay de leon) 5. Re: tale of two tournaments (maurice gatdula) 6. Re: A Tale of Two Tournaments (B Katz) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 01:55:35 -0800 (PST) From: B Katz Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A Tale of Two Tournaments To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Maybe I'm just a non-commercial throwback, but I relish the fact that the FMA's are obscure and relatively unknown. It helps keep the pretenders in the McDojos and not strutting around bragging about being "stickfighters". We of the Digest have been discussing, at length, to whom we should extend the privledge of training with us, (and in my view it most certainly IS a privledge!). My thought is keep it in the back-yards and garages. Extend your invitations to those known to you and whom you trust with what you know. This will certainly eliminate the dilemma as to the quality of your pupils! I, for one, am saddened by commercialization of any kind. It breaks my heart that more eskrima players don't carve their own tools and feel the need to come to me instead. Many great men protected their nation and lives of their loved ones with our collective art and the purist in me worries that too many tournaments will turn a once deadly and beautiful art into a sport, played not for life and death but for fun and trophies. I am all for a quiet comparison of techniques with ground rules arranged between the players, but tournaments and their accompanying red tape and "fairness" concern me. There is no level playing field in fighting, no technicalities to exploit, no reward but survival. I would ask that all who read this remain true to the Spirit of the Thing. www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 06:45:03 -0800 From: "Ramon Espinosa" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A Tale of Two Tournaments Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net B, I agree, to an extent. The McDojo's already strut around pretending the know anything, and with DVD's and youtube for the younger generations, you can't stop that snowball, it's too big right now. We are in an age where nothing is secret anymore and things get passed around very quickly. Know it's on a path that without any good FMA schools out there to show what REAL FMA is about, all the general public will know is what is taught by the Mcphonies, what they've learned on their own from seminar's, DVD's, and youtube. The future is within the youth! I honestly think one way to attract the youth to FMA, is the same way TKD has grown, is through competitions and the sport aspect of the art. Kids grow up with all kinds of sports in their lives, and with just about every other martial art doing it, it's leaving FMA in the dust. Now with that said, I think there needs to be a clear definition of what is "Sport" and what is "FMA". While there is a benefit of doing one, there are bad habits that can be had if all one is doing is "Sport FMA". Where I agree to an extent is who is taught and what is taught is a priviledge. I was on craigslist the other week and came across an ad for a knucklehead that was looking to start his own "cru", where they can go out and get drunk and get into fights, and his claim was he was currently training in weapons fighting! He didn't say what or by whom, but made me think, what if this was an FMA instructor? What if this was a Mcphonie? Even a Mcphonie could impart some knowledge that would be used in a worse way by a knucklehead like this against some elderly people, women, a family! As in everything life, it's about balance. Teaching those in the begining the basics, and having them work towards what you (as the instructor) would deam more deadly/leathal/useful/skilled. During that time is your (the instructor)time to evaluate and impart the knowledge and eventually skill that you think your student can handle. If unsure you can teach and leave out what is truly the essence of your art, until a time you feel you can either teach this or time to quit teaching this student. This of course is with the assumption you are teaching more than one student. You'll have those who want to learn and enjoy it, and you'll have those whom are passionate and want to learn it all with a willing and capable heart. It's the skill and training taught to you by your instructor, that will help you differentiate between the different types of students. Just my 2 cents! Respectfully, Ramon www.haywardmartialarts.net On 2/15/08, B Katz wrote: > > Maybe I'm just a non-commercial throwback, but I relish the fact that the > FMA's are obscure and relatively unknown. It helps keep the pretenders in > the McDojos and not strutting around bragging about being "stickfighters". > We of the Digest have been discussing, at length, to whom we should extend > the privledge of training with us, (and in my view it most certainly IS a > privledge!). My thought is keep it in the back-yards and garages. Extend > your invitations to those known to you and whom you trust with what you > know. This will certainly eliminate the dilemma as to the quality of your > pupils! > > I, for one, am saddened by commercialization of any kind. It breaks my > heart that more eskrima players don't carve their own tools and feel the > need to come to me instead. Many great men protected their nation and lives > of their loved ones with our collective art and the purist in me worries > that too many tournaments will turn a once deadly and beautiful art into a > sport, played not for life and death but for fun and trophies. > > I am all for a quiet comparison of techniques with ground rules arranged > between the players, but tournaments and their accompanying red tape and > "fairness" concern me. There is no level playing field in fighting, no > technicalities to exploit, no reward but survival. I would ask that all who > read this remain true to the Spirit of the Thing. > > > www.eskrimacustoms.com > Fine hand-crafted hardwood > bastons and training knives > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:53:28 -0800 (PST) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A Tale of Two Tournaments To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If I were to run a huge group class that's been heavily promoted a la mc-dojo-style and as long as I am STILL training as hardcore as I have been and am making some big bucks out of it, I sure as hell won't be complaining. Man's gotta eat too. -Daniel Arola B Katz wrote: Maybe I'm just a non-commercial throwback, but I relish the fact that the FMA's are obscure and relatively unknown. It helps keep the pretenders in the McDojos and not strutting around bragging about being "stickfighters". We of the Digest have been discussing, at length, to whom we should extend the privledge of training with us, (and in my view it most certainly IS a privledge!). My thought is keep it in the back-yards and garages. Extend your invitations to those known to you and whom you trust with what you know. This will certainly eliminate the dilemma as to the quality of your pupils! I, for one, am saddened by commercialization of any kind. It breaks my heart that more eskrima players don't carve their own tools and feel the need to come to me instead. Many great men protected their nation and lives of their loved ones with our collective art and the purist in me worries that too many tournaments will turn a once deadly and beautiful art into a sport, played not for life and death but for fun and trophies. I am all for a quiet comparison of techniques with ground rules arranged between the players, but tournaments and their accompanying red tape and "fairness" concern me. There is no level playing field in fighting, no technicalities to exploit, no reward but survival. I would ask that all who read this remain true to the Spirit of the Thing. www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net DAMAG-INC [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] http://www.damag-inc.zoomshare.com Houston, Texas --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:06:13 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A Tale of Two Tournaments To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I would like to point out that there is a sports aspect to Filipino Martial Arts or arnis. Some major FMA groups like WEKAF, Bakbakan and International Modern Arnis Federation of the Phil (IMAFP) are pushing for "standard" tournament rules and hosting international tournaments. Each organization or dojo or even individual may, of course, decide not to develop this aspect of their FMA art. In most postings here, though, it seems to be a consensus that the sports aspect helps one's development and training in the arts. Opinions? Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com www.imafp.com B Katz wrote: Maybe I'm just a non-commercial throwback, but I relish the fact that the FMA's are obscure and relatively unknown. It helps keep the pretenders in the McDojos and not strutting around bragging about being "stickfighters". We of the Digest have been discussing, at length, to whom we should extend the privledge of training with us, (and in my view it most certainly IS a privledge!). My thought is keep it in the back-yards and garages. Extend your invitations to those known to you and whom you trust with what you know. This will certainly eliminate the dilemma as to the quality of your pupils! I, for one, am saddened by commercialization of any kind. It breaks my heart that more eskrima players don't carve their own tools and feel the need to come to me instead. Many great men protected their nation and lives of their loved ones with our collective art and the purist in me worries that too many tournaments will turn a once deadly and beautiful art into a sport, played not for life and death but for fun and trophies. I am all for a quiet comparison of techniques with ground rules arranged between the players, but tournaments and their accompanying red tape and "fairness" concern me. There is no level playing field in fighting, no technicalities to exploit, no reward but survival. I would ask that all who read this remain true to the Spirit of the Thing. www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 10:19:44 -0800 (PST) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: tale of two tournaments Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i understand how you feel, al about the tournaments and how they are compared to karate and kung fu tournaments. but i think the philippine martial arts, very unlike karate and kung fu, is one of those styles that to make it appear to the average guy, you have to change the arts. like if you compared pure kung fu with wu shu, teenagers and kids not going to like real kung fu, because it might look boring to them, or not very exciting. but the sport of wu shu, with the flips and jumpings and spinning, this gets young people very excited, because is more like what they're going to see in the movies. lots of times, even with martial artists of another style, will look at an art, says to himself, that doesnt make sense. its easy to walk away thinking that this art he saw was no good, but the truth was, he doesnt understand what he is watching. this is why tournaments that is run by tae kwon do teachers might not be good for kung fu people, or japanese karate expert who runs a tournament is not good for the tae kwon do guys, etc. styles are different, and they might not get appreciated by the spectator who is not familiar or even the judge and referees. in some sports we have the same thing. to many people who doesnt understand boxing, or golf, or lacrost, its a boring to watch. my wife, hate football, and says the game is boring, who is winning, stuff like that. because she is a woman and they dont understand this kind of sport. but me, i dont understand skating and why a man does it. doesnt mean the sport is bad, but some people will like somethings and sometimes not, but not everything is for everybody. anyway, real FMA is not for everyone, and this is why the filipino arts are so special. unlike many other styles, we are simple fighting arts, but at the same time, too deep for 10 years old kids. so our choice is, make mc-skrima styles so that the weak hearted people will do it, or keep it as an original style only for those who are strong enough to do it. i like the fact, that it takes a certain kind of guy to train in the style. if they want good grades, belts and musical forms, they can go down the street. but is it better for us to make the art interesting for everyone, but weaken it? or keep it strong and we have to weed out the weak students? i use to worry about, how can i make the arts more entertaining to get more students. but as a teacher i had to make a decision, money or pureness. i chose pureness. and guess what. i make pretty good money doing what i always been doing, with NO 6 year olds, NO 3 year program, NO tae bo, NO afterschool karate, etc. we have an adult school, and my kids class is a teenagers program. we separated men and women in the school. and still, our art is pure. i have a pure kuntaw class, a pure eskrima, and a pure kung fu class. i think the tournament way is good to bring attention to the FMA, but it doesnt need attention. it's sad that theres not more fighters in the tournament (i blame this on seminars and video, but we can talk about that later). maybe they should think about ways to make more fighters come to the tournament. tournament, should be more for the fighters, than the spectator, if we are talking about FMA. karate and kung fu is a spectator sport, eskrima is not. maybe adding better looking demonstration might help, but stick fighting, if the watcher is not an arnisador, will probably not going to enjoy it because he has to understand what is going on. even other eskrima students who never fought before doesnt understand it when they see it. we hear this all the time on the forms when somebody says, "pillow fight", they dont enjoy when they dont understand. but other forms of fighting, like MMA, and muay thai, is easir to see and understand. but compared that to a grappling tournament, its the same thing, a lot of technique is involved, but people dont understand. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:35:03 -0800 (PST) From: B Katz Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A Tale of Two Tournaments To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Having a sport aspect and tournaments probably will show all of the benefits to the FMAs that it did for TKD and judo. My concern is at what cost? I think that the principle of diminishing returns applies here. Eventually things will grow to a point where the subtlties and nuance will be lost. How many of us can look at a 12 year old TKD black belt and see a master of a fighting art? I'm not trying to be a staunch traditionalist or elitist, but there is nothing wrong with passing knowledge from father to son, or old soldier to a small group of trusted younger students. My fear is that the FMAs are going to succumb to the decidedly Western idea that bigger is always better. www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest