Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:24:00 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #44 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath (Felipe Jocano) 2. Re: A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath (jay de leon) 3. Re: A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath (adam babb) 4. Re: A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath (Felipe Jocano) 5. Re: A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath (jay de leon) 6. Re: A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath (B Katz) 7. Re: A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath (B Katz) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 19:36:09 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just chiming in with a few pesos worth: Over here in the Philippines, we don't have that many mcDojo yet, thankfully. Martial arts are not that commercially viable except for a few like TKD and karatedo. And these are promoted as sports. most of the "real stuff" is taught privately, assuming the instructor got it in the first place. FMA are also not that commercially viable, at least if you mean by commercial is highly visible advertising, including the Yellow Pages and diluted teaching, such as is being criticized in this thread. I did look in the phone books and found - nothing for FMA. I am aware that there is a school open to the public down in Manila, but even that doesn't have an advertisement in the phone books. You can't make big money from teaching martial arts full-time, unless you're a part of the PE faculty of a school, in the private security business, working through a fitness center or a part of the national team. Most FMA guro teach part time, usually after work or on weekends. I know of only two FMA guro who still teach full time. One of them retired from his previous job and now handles a small group of private students. The other one does it by handling group clients and/or private students. One of my friends is a fitness instructor, a private security consultant and an FMA teacher as well, so these skills blend together make for viable income. My friends and I were talking about this once. karate and taekwondo are middle-to-upper-class sports (again, finding the instructors who teach the martial aspects is not easy). FMA don't appeal much to the middle and upper class clientele, which is where the income from teaching is to be found. Basically, it still is a working-class art. The only other source of income is...foreign students - you guys who come here to learn from the local teachers. But we can start another discussion on this topic if you want. (note: I asked my students, most of whom came from middle class backgrounds, why they wanted FMA and not some other art like karate and TKD. The majority wanted to learn a martial art that helped them to connect with being Filipino. The practicality for self-defense was an additional big plus for them. One of my students used political economy to frame his answer - how else would you understand conflict between people if you didn't learn about how to control it. Interesting point...) (additional note: why are FMA still considered working-class MA? Because many of the really good FMA fighter/teachers didn't finish all of their education. Many finished grade school, a few finished high school and fewer finished college. Even fewer went on to graduate school. Those majority had to stop schooling early in order to work and earn to support their families. This isn't to put anyone down, but its the grim reality for many FMA fighter/teachers. There's an emerging generation of FMA fighter/teachers who are college graduates and who can analyze and explain their arts in new ways. But there aren't that many of them yet.) It is this image of FMA here that is a big contrast to what appears to be emerging over there. Here, FMA still are associated with coming out alive in a fight, with prevailing in a brawl, with protecting yourself and your loved ones. Mostly, as one of my friends put it, its still associated with farmers and laborers. >From my perspective, over there the FMA still tend to be an exotic martial art. When tournaments are held, they tend to be more for the fighters than for the spectators. Which is the way it should be, regardless of the rules used - ARPI, WEKAF, IMAF. Hence, you won't ever see the tournaments in a large venue. At one time, they used to be held in the atrium of a large shopping mall as a means of generating publicity - but lately, the venues seem to have shifted. Promotion of FMA tends to be by word of mouth or through the schools. As for Davids and Goliaths - when you hold a weapon, that creates a transformation - if you know how to use it right :-). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:41:32 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Mostly, as one of my friends put it, its still associated with farmers and laborers." Hi Bot: Kumusta? Good observations in your post. In an old article I wrote, (about 4 years ago), I said the perception was, that FMA was "bakya" or pedestrian, and therefore uncool. I was hoping that things would have changed by now, lol. Nothing doing, right, Bot? See Article below, under "FMA is the most popular martial arts in the Phil." http://www.filipinofightingartsintl.com/Publications/martial_arts/myths-mysteries-misconceptions.html My guro, Master Godofredo Fajardo, instructs full-time, but he has to go to the Middle East to earn a living. Most of the articulate arnisadors and college graduates are usually the writers like James Sy, Jr., Tinni Macachor, etc. You are the highest ranked arnisador I know who is not only a college graduate but also a college professor. Not too many like you around. The other one is PG Mat Marinas, but he is here now in the US. Another exception might be GM Diony Canete, who I believe is a lawyer. I am sure there are others, but definitely the rare exception rather than the rule. Jay de Leon www.tipunan.com Felipe Jocano wrote: Just chiming in with a few pesos worth: Over here in the Philippines, we don't have that many mcDojo yet, thankfully. Martial arts are not that commercially viable except for a few like TKD and karatedo. And these are promoted as sports. most of the "real stuff" is taught privately, assuming the instructor got it in the first place. FMA are also not that commercially viable, at least if you mean by commercial is highly visible advertising, including the Yellow Pages and diluted teaching, such as is being criticized in this thread. I did look in the phone books and found - nothing for FMA. I am aware that there is a school open to the public down in Manila, but even that doesn't have an advertisement in the phone books. You can't make big money from teaching martial arts full-time, unless you're a part of the PE faculty of a school, in the private security business, working through a fitness center or a part of the national team. Most FMA guro teach part time, usually after work or on weekends. I know of only two FMA guro who still teach full time. One of them retired from his previous job and now handles a small group of private students. The other one does it by handling group clients and/or private students. One of my friends is a fitness instructor, a private security consultant and an FMA teacher as well, so these skills blend together make for viable income. My friends and I were talking about this once. karate and taekwondo are middle-to-upper-class sports (again, finding the instructors who teach the martial aspects is not easy). FMA don't appeal much to the middle and upper class clientele, which is where the income from teaching is to be found. Basically, it still is a working-class art. The only other source of income is...foreign students - you guys who come here to learn from the local teachers. But we can start another discussion on this topic if you want. (note: I asked my students, most of whom came from middle class backgrounds, why they wanted FMA and not some other art like karate and TKD. The majority wanted to learn a martial art that helped them to connect with being Filipino. The practicality for self-defense was an additional big plus for them. One of my students used political economy to frame his answer - how else would you understand conflict between people if you didn't learn about how to control it. Interesting point...) (additional note: why are FMA still considered working-class MA? Because many of the really good FMA fighter/teachers didn't finish all of their education. Many finished grade school, a few finished high school and fewer finished college. Even fewer went on to graduate school. Those majority had to stop schooling early in order to work and earn to support their families. This isn't to put anyone down, but its the grim reality for many FMA fighter/teachers. There's an emerging generation of FMA fighter/teachers who are college graduates and who can analyze and explain their arts in new ways. But there aren't that many of them yet.) It is this image of FMA here that is a big contrast to what appears to be emerging over there. Here, FMA still are associated with coming out alive in a fight, with prevailing in a brawl, with protecting yourself and your loved ones. Mostly, as one of my friends put it, its still associated with farmers and laborers. >From my perspective, over there the FMA still tend to be an exotic martial art. When tournaments are held, they tend to be more for the fighters than for the spectators. Which is the way it should be, regardless of the rules used - ARPI, WEKAF, IMAF. Hence, you won't ever see the tournaments in a large venue. At one time, they used to be held in the atrium of a large shopping mall as a means of generating publicity - but lately, the venues seem to have shifted. Promotion of FMA tends to be by word of mouth or through the schools. As for Davids and Goliaths - when you hold a weapon, that creates a transformation - if you know how to use it right :-). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:11:02 -0800 (PST) From: adam babb Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Also remember at least here in states the most people who study a martial art whant there belt now. And dont have the pateince to wait for it and most of them are studying a sport art not a combat art. adam --- B Katz wrote: > Being a sheltered Yuppie-larvae is exactly my > point!! There is a little McDojo around the corner > from my house. It is infested with little rug rats > that think they are Chuck Norris. Saddly, the > "Master" has decided to add "stickfighting" to his > curriculum. I'm quite convinced that no good can > come from this. > > He has managed to instill a false sense of > confidence in his students already. My son attends > school with a kid that had his first Dan before he > was in middle school. His white belt isn't even the > slightest bit dirty. > > In a way I'm happy that all these kids hang out at > this particular academy... it makes my son's eskrima > that much more effective when he encounters a bully. > > Maybe I am a bit elitist and snobbish when it > comes to our art, but I also believe that not > everyone should be gun owners and/or parents as > well. I would be wounded to the core of my soul to > see another great combat tradition watered down to > make it palatable for mass consumption... > > > www.eskrimacustoms.com > Fine hand-crafted hardwood > bastons and training knives > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:55:15 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Manong Jay; Some things haven't changed that much :-) however, I know of quite a number who are professionals in their regular lives; one is an architect, two are lawyers (one is also a professor in the College of Law and the other one is with the police - he gets to use our techniques every now and then :-> ). I do know that manong Abner Pasa has an MA degree. But you are right, professionals doing FMA aren't that many here. With regards to the potential McDojofication of the FMA, I think that if we are discussing the pros and cons of commercialization of the martial arts, including the FMA, I think the question of commercialization may be beside the point: after all if you teach you deserve to be paid. The major point is...what kind of stuff are you teaching? There is an exploitative form of commercialization, in which the "guro" teaches what he or she doesn't really understand (and if I understand all the posts on this topic correctly, this is what is going on); and then there is a form of commercialization in which the focus is on quality teaching and on the students getting their money's worth. If I understand things correctly, the first is the McDojo and the second is a rare bird. I think that if the fear is of the McDojofication, then that could be addressed by focusing on the second form of commercial teaching: deliver quality instruction, make sure the students understand what they're getting out of the teaching, tell them up front what you can and cannot do for them. I believe that word gets around if you can do and teach what you say you can do and teach. The next question is: what is meant by quality instruction. Now that's another whole can of worms, as the American saying goes. Obviously, we have different styles, with different definitions of proper movement. I won't go into that. I think you are providing quality instruction if you know what you are doing, you can explain what it is you are doing, and you can get your student to do it. Firstly, follow the movement, and later on apply it under pressure and at the right moment. Regardless of style. And of course, admit to what you don't know. Surprisingly, many students will appreciate honesty of this sort. Anyway, thanks for the kind words both on your post and on the link to your site (I checked it out). Now I know what Badger looks like :-) Just a few more pesos from over here :-) Bot --- jay de leon wrote: > "Mostly, as one of my friends put > it, its still associated with farmers and laborers." > > Hi Bot: > > Kumusta? Good observations in your post. > > In an old article I wrote, (about 4 years ago), I > said > the perception was, that FMA was "bakya" or > pedestrian, > and therefore uncool. I was hoping that things > would have > changed by now, lol. Nothing doing, right, Bot? > > See Article below, under "FMA is the most popular > martial > arts in the Phil." > > > http://www.filipinofightingartsintl.com/Publications/martial_arts/myths-mysteries-misconceptions.html > > My guro, Master Godofredo Fajardo, instructs > full-time, but > he has to go to the Middle East to earn a living. > > Most of the articulate arnisadors and college > graduates are > usually the writers like James Sy, Jr., Tinni > Macachor, etc. > > You are the highest ranked arnisador I know who is > not only > a college graduate but also a college professor. > Not too many > like you around. The other one is PG Mat Marinas, > but he is > here now in the US. > > Another exception might be GM Diony Canete, who I > believe is > a lawyer. I am sure there are others, but > definitely the rare > exception rather than the rule. > > Jay de Leon > www.tipunan.com > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 07:17:41 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Bot: What? I wrote a masterpiece and all you can remember is Badger's mug? As usual, appreciate your few pesos contribution. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com Felipe Jocano wrote: Hi Manong Jay; Some things haven't changed that much :-) however, I know of quite a number who are professionals in their regular lives; one is an architect, two are lawyers (one is also a professor in the College of Law and the other one is with the police - he gets to use our techniques every now and then :-> ). I do know that manong Abner Pasa has an MA degree. But you are right, professionals doing FMA aren't that many here. With regards to the potential McDojofication of the FMA, I think that if we are discussing the pros and cons of commercialization of the martial arts, including the FMA, I think the question of commercialization may be beside the point: after all if you teach you deserve to be paid. The major point is...what kind of stuff are you teaching? There is an exploitative form of commercialization, in which the "guro" teaches what he or she doesn't really understand (and if I understand all the posts on this topic correctly, this is what is going on); and then there is a form of commercialization in which the focus is on quality teaching and on the students getting their money's worth. If I understand things correctly, the first is the McDojo and the second is a rare bird. I think that if the fear is of the McDojofication, then that could be addressed by focusing on the second form of commercial teaching: deliver quality instruction, make sure the students understand what they're getting out of the teaching, tell them up front what you can and cannot do for them. I believe that word gets around if you can do and teach what you say you can do and teach. The next question is: what is meant by quality instruction. Now that's another whole can of worms, as the American saying goes. Obviously, we have different styles, with different definitions of proper movement. I won't go into that. I think you are providing quality instruction if you know what you are doing, you can explain what it is you are doing, and you can get your student to do it. Firstly, follow the movement, and later on apply it under pressure and at the right moment. Regardless of style. And of course, admit to what you don't know. Surprisingly, many students will appreciate honesty of this sort. Anyway, thanks for the kind words both on your post and on the link to your site (I checked it out). Now I know what Badger looks like :-) Just a few more pesos from over here :-) Bot --- jay de leon wrote: > "Mostly, as one of my friends put > it, its still associated with farmers and laborers." > > Hi Bot: > > Kumusta? Good observations in your post. > /r/hs _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 07:15:17 -0800 (PST) From: B Katz Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Adam, You are absolutely right!! I blame cable TV. America has become the homeland of Short Attentionspan Theatre. My son is 13 and battles with being "bored" all the time, despite the PS3, the dvd library, and all the other accoutremants of being a teenager in the 'Burbs. Oddly enough, he seems to be happiest when he's banging sticks in the garage with our Club. Being the youngest and member he takes a pretty good beating on Monday nights. I am thrilled that he has taken an interest in the FMAs. He is even learning to carve bastons and training knives now. He's becoming quite the "David" to our Goliaths. (rotten little hand-hitter!!) www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 07:25:45 -0800 (PST) From: B Katz Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If I understand my history correctly, the challenge match provided the proper checks and balances to determine quality instruction. Maybe the U.S. has become entirely too "civilized" for it's own good. As for the FMAs being a working mans art... that's fairly true here in the States as well. Most of the guys that I know personally are involved in some type of peace-keeping profession, whether it be law enforcement or security or even a few bouncers. Most of the guys are "Money talks and BS walks" kind of fellows. I checked up on the "stickfighting" being offered at the TKD school... (sorry, I threw up in my mouth a little...) Seems the instructor "graduated" from a seminar!!! I really don't know whether to laugh hysterically or weep! www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest