Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 22:14:00 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #46 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. What works for us (Marc Denny) 2. Re: Re: mcdojo in the philippines (Felipe Jocano) 3. Re: A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath (Felipe Jocano) 4. Re: Myths,Mysteries, and Misconceptions about FMA (B Katz) 5. Re: What works for us (B Katz) 6. Re: Watered Down? (Gints Klimanis) 7. Re: Re: Watered Down? (Ruel Apostol) 8. Re: Re: Watered Down? (Tyler Murphy) 9. Re: Re: Watered Down? (jay de leon) 10. my prediction for the next "mcdojo"... (maurice gatdula) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:24:47 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] What works for us Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Concerning tournaments, McDojos, etc. What works for us is this: "No judges, no referees, no trophies. One rule only-- Be friends at the end of the Day. No suing no one for no reason for nothing no how no way. Protect yourself at all times for only you are responsible for you. Higher consciousness through harder contact." (c) DBInc. "There are people who do it less dangerously than us. There are people who do it more dangerously than us-- though this tends to not be friends at the end of the day. If you ain't the lead sled dog the view is all the same. No one beats everyone all the time, so be not humble and be not proud. Respect others as you respect yourself. Search for Truth." (c) DBInc The Adventure continues, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:31:07 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: mcdojo in the philippines To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, Good points! That new "mcdojo" you were referring to isn't located in a building - but the effect is the same. I have a friend who almost went into training with - what can we call him? a mcmaster :-) and left hurriedly when he realized what the guy was actually up to (gouging him for money). --- maurice gatdula wrote: > i think the new "mcdojo" in the philippines is to > live up to those stories foreigners think about when > they go to the philippines. they are looking for > dressing up in moro costumes and army uniform? what > size are you. they want "kali"? give it to them. > they want training in the mud? train with the pigs > and caribou? sure, we got that. and when you're > done....here's your certificate, i even going to put > you on my website. And that's a sad fact. That small old guy is the one to be afraid of. > its bad now, that the small old guy in the > province is not respected as a master, because he > never bragged to kill people in death matches, he > doesnt speak good, or educated, and he doesnt have a > website or foreign students. > i'm very proud that we dont have mega schools in > the philippines, But then, it doesn't stop some of the locals from trying. but i am not proud that we 'give > them what they came for". this is for money, and > fame, forget if the student really knows how to > fight or not, and that makes a lot of commercialsim > in the philippine martial arts. And there you have it. It is this side of martial arts teaching in the Philippines that makes me uneasy as a Filipino. Although I guess this is true in a lot of places, not just here. Still, there are others who are not that way. But sadly, this trend is very visible. I had a foreign student once who told me of his previous teacher. Said teacher sold him a pair of sticks at ten times the usual price. I had to get my eyebrows back off the ceiling and then I asked him they cost ten times less than that! and he said how could I have known? i was new here at the time. Sigh. Bot _________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:33:23 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A Tale of Two Tournaments and David and Goliath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Manong Jay: What was that again about pictures and thousands of words? :-) But I really appreciate your comments in that article. :-) Bot --- jay de leon wrote: > Hi Bot: > > What? I wrote a masterpiece and all you can > remember is Badger's mug? > > As usual, appreciate your few pesos contribution. > > Jay de Leon > www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com > > Felipe Jocano wrote: > Hi Manong Jay; > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:02:03 -0800 (PST) From: B Katz Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Myths,Mysteries, and Misconceptions about FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Gentlemen, Thank-you all for your input on this topic! I at once feel vindicated and admonished for my views! It is a great help to have access to the thoughts and opinions of practicioners from all over the world. www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 02:57:41 -0800 (PST) From: B Katz Subject: Re: [Eskrima] What works for us To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net We took a page from Guro Crafty's book last night. A little hard contact sparring that included a takedown on the concrete and ended up with a rattan stick getting snapped in half! Woohoo!! I look like a zebra this morning. My training partner and I laughed all the way to the jow bottle! I can't wait for next week!!! www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gints Klimanis" To: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 00:26:49 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Watered Down? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net ----- Original Message ----- > Why do you think if students fight in a very sport centered tournament it > waters down the art. The path of the TKD McDojo, hasn't watered down TKD. Sure, it has. Most TKD is about the perfection of a sport designed to please the spectator. You're correct in that the TKD McDojo supports the sport well and thus TKD tournament point sparring doesn't water down that art. In my opinion, the sport of TKD bears only a remote resemblance to combat. An easy test is in the topmartial sport tournament in the USA: the UFC. Have any of those matches exemplified TKD? If I've missed one, let me know which. >GM's have developed lots of training methods, sinawali, etc. that are just >drills and patterns. Do they have combat application? Some do. Most are a waste of time as the elaborate stick patterns only remotely resemble actual athletic movements, much as jogging around a track will marginally prepare you to be a sprinter. Beautiful movements have taken over much of martial arts training, and much of eskrima is no exception. You raise some excellent points about using sports competitions to enhance training. Many experts of catalogs of beautiful movements shy away from combative exercises as most of those movements break down when they exceed the 1/4 power and 1/4 speed at which they work wonderfully. Those are the dojo arts and fall into the categories of performance arts and mysticism. I think that sport eskrima, WEKAF rules and others, are essential to the students training. As we've discussed before, some of the tournament moves have been developed only to win by landing a large number of shots, none of which would faze even an unpadded ordinary man even when not in the combative biochemical state. > So the student who only attends five classes, does not learn much. Some > coordiation drills, some twirlings, some basic self defense. > When a student walks out of my class, I hope and pray they have a little > more (delf defense) than when they came in. Your goals are noble. Self-defense training is about having an ability that is above that of a person of your size. Do you think that such an actual advantage can be gained in one class with technique, or is it the large gain in confidence? I would think that 1-3 techniques repeated in many different attack/defense situations is the way to go for a single training session. -- Gints --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:34:37 -0800 (PST) From: Ruel Apostol Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Watered Down? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net UFC is about mixing of some martial arts, believe it or not, some of the guys there do have TKD background. I don't remember the names, but one of them that I remember is Stephan Bonnar. Juras is an MMA fighter in Poland and his base art is also TKD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLabBQaWM88 But, I myself, is also disappointed with the direction that TKD went nowadays. Its true that the concentration of most TKD dojangs now is its sport aspect. The combative side of it is almost gone. But, there are still others who still practice traditional combat TKD. ----- Original Message ---- From: Gints Klimanis To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:26:49 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Watered Down? ----- Original Message ----- Sure, it has. Most TKD is about the perfection of a sport designed to please the spectator. You're correct in that the TKD McDojo supports the sport well and thus TKD tournament point sparring doesn't water down that art. In my opinion, the sport of TKD bears only a remote resemblance to combat. An easy test is in the topmartial sport tournament in the USA: the UFC. Have any of those matches exemplified TKD? If I've missed one, let me know which. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:52:19 -0800 (PST) From: Tyler Murphy Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Watered Down? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net While in Korea I trained with a few true TKD stylists and it was much different than what i had done here in the states. If however you could gte inside there range they really didn't have anything against takedowns or good boxing skill. If one of those bombs they called feet hit you howveer they usually put you down by themselves. Tyler ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:09:29 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Watered Down? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Beautiful movements have taken over much of martial arts training, and much of eskrima is no exception." Certain masters/oldtimers categorize their arnis training or teaching into two types: "pang-entablado" and "pamatay." "Pang-entablado" literally means "for the stage." This is for show, demos, possibly competition or maybe even just self-expression. This is where the beautiful movements come in--fancy twirling, complicated sinawali patterns, aerial moves, choreographed self-defense sequences, etc. 'Pamatay" literally means "for killing." This is the combative aspect of eskrima. I saw my guro Godofredo Fajardo do a double-stick self-defense demo wherein his uke went flying several times into a front somersault. (The uke was landing on soft grass in a park.) Can he do this in actual combat? Maybe. But there is no doubt in my mind he can easily skewer anybody in a much more simple and less spectacular (less beautiful?) way. Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com Gints Klimanis wrote: ----- Original Message ----- > Why do you think if students fight in a very sport centered tournament it > waters down the art. The path of the TKD McDojo, hasn't watered down TKD. Sure, it has. Most TKD is about the perfection of a sport designed to please the spectator. You're correct in that the TKD McDojo supports the sport well and thus TKD tournament point sparring doesn't water down that art. In my opinion, the sport of TKD bears only a remote resemblance to combat. An easy test is in the topmartial sport tournament in the USA: the UFC. Have any of those matches exemplified TKD? If I've missed one, let me know which. >GM's have developed lots of training methods, sinawali, etc. that are just >drills and patterns. Do they have combat application? Some do. Most are a waste of time as the elaborate stick patterns only remotely resemble actual athletic movements, much as jogging around a track will marginally prepare you to be a sprinter. Beautiful movements have taken over much of martial arts training, and much of eskrima is no exception. You raise some excellent points about using sports competitions to enhance training. Many experts of catalogs of beautiful movements shy away from combative exercises as most of those movements break down when they exceed the 1/4 power and 1/4 speed at which they work wonderfully. Those are the dojo arts and fall into the categories of performance arts and mysticism. I think that sport eskrima, WEKAF rules and others, are essential to the students training. As we've discussed before, some of the tournament moves have been developed only to win by landing a large number of shots, none of which would faze even an unpadded ordinary man even when not in the combative biochemical state. > So the student who only attends five classes, does not learn much. Some > coordiation drills, some twirlings, some basic self defense. > When a student walks out of my class, I hope and pray they have a little > more (delf defense) than when they came in. Your goals are noble. Self-defense training is about having an ability that is above that of a person of your size. Do you think that such an actual advantage can be gained in one class with technique, or is it the large gain in confidence? I would think that 1-3 techniques repeated in many different attack/defense situations is the way to go for a single training session. -- Gints _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:16:01 -0800 (PST) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] my prediction for the next "mcdojo"... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog/mma_experts/post/Kimbo-takes-the-mantle-from-Tank?urn=mma%2C67120 how much you want to bet, the next art to become the new thing in video, seminars, even schools....is not going to be any rare martial arts......but streetfighting with NO martial arts, and NO boxing, and NO wrestling! they will still sell certificates (theres already some kung fu guys in NYC who teaches "52 blocks", but they never been to prison, and they aint 5 percenters. yes, street fighting from the "hood". but its going to be bigger than every before. streetfighting experts from the streets of buffalo new york or youngtown ohio, you can beat any UFC fighter with these secrets! crips and blood streetfighting tactics! learn to stomp somebody ass into the ground, 3 on 1! the thing about the martial artists, is, he never grew up from 12 years old. he's still searching for "secret" styles and techniques nobody can beat. he still belives in the "supersuit" that gives you superpower (we call this muay thai shorts or bjj uniforms), straight from the temples of suburbs and internet websites. the 12 year old kids who use to buy karate posters and 10 page course from the comic book, he is teaching, still in "10 easy lesson", except now its called "intensive no-nonsense training camp!" look at his resume. the dates of his "certification" will be exactly 12 months after important martial arts storms: like: van dam movie "kickboxer" (muay thai), jason scott lee "dragon" (JKD/wing chun), jeff speakman "perfect weapons" (kenpo), bjj/etc (after the UFC, and release of some bjj video), "ong bak" (ancient muay thai), eskrima, noo excuse me, kali (after the hunted, and cable TV specials like fightquest), you get it. but look all the way back when he was 13 years old, his first black belt is from a shopping center karate (or maybe a real school), but that master is not on his website.... the martial artist, is afraid to prove what he has. that is why he lets his friends promote him. this is why he says he doesnt like tournaments. he teachs boxing, but he never been in a boxing gym. we have guys who watch zulu stick fighting on pbs, and now, they teach it! i wonder how long they studied before the zulus "certified" them. you know, even after bravehard, and 300, and troy, we have guys who abandon there karate, fma, and other asian style to teach "gladiator style fighting/wma". yeah, okay. one guy came to my place who says he knows a roman stickfighting. what he showed to me looks like kendo. well, maybe the samurai stole it from the romans. this is why many people do not take the martial arts seriously, because we have so many clowns who study an art 10 years, and he is not courageous enough to stand by his learning, and defend what he learned. we dont take our own training serious, this is why we are forever trying to learn something else that makes us "confident". why is this? because our teachers fail us when they "certify" us and we are not the best he can produce. i know this is true, and so does the seminar guys who targets not the beginning student, but TEACHERS and EXPERTS. you can make a lot of money from another man insecurity. the truth is, most black belters, did not work hard to get it, and he does not have the confidence that he can really back up his certificate, and even there teachers know this is true, but everyone keeps doing it.... so anyway, beginning of this week, i am going to start my "combat streetfighting classes" at my school. this is not martial arts base, but only the most effective fight skills proven by a selected few bangers and thugs know the secrets. you can learn them all in one day, and i guarantee that you can beat any mma guy on the "big yard"...the streets! lol --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest