Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 18:55:01 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #54 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Maurice's post (adam babb) 2. Re: Re: Arnis field study (Jesse Sandow) 3. Re: Filipino language/s (2@msfencing.org) 4. Re: Pretenders and McDojos (B Katz) 5. Re: Arnis Field Study - Visayan FMA (Jesse Sandow) 6. Live blade (Federico Malibago) 7. Re: Live blade (Guru Mike Casto) 8. Re: Pretenders and McDojos (Ray) 9. Re: Live blade (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:28:07 -0800 (PST) From: adam babb Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Maurice's post To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i remember a guy here who didnt know tai chi but he watched a video and bam he he was theching it 2hrs later --- B Katz wrote: > This touches on a little of my concerns. The TKD > dojo here in town was one of those that attended a 2 > day seminar and added "stick fighting" to his > curriculum. I keep joking that I'm going to walk in > there some evening and throw a stick at his feet. > > My understanding of the history of our collective > Art is that the friendly test of skills was the > proving ground for the beginners and the challenge > (death) match was the proof of the master. > > This seems to me to be an intensely personal type > of arrangement. Two men, maybe a total of four > sticks, winner take all. I'm good with that. I have > studied Isshin Ryu karate in a dojo where there were > no colored belts. Rank was indicated by the > bloodstains and general rattiness of each players > obi. We trained on a tile floor. Yes, the throws > were pretty freakin' painful! > > Our eskrima club promotes in much the same > fashion. We are small enough to know who is senior > and are respectful accordingly. I just keep hearing > GM Antonio Illustrisimo's comment to GM Antonio > Diego about how his art kept him alive and why would > he tell everyone how it was done. > > Maybe times have changed to the point that some > folks are willing to disseminate the Art to the > world, but I, for one, enjoy the fact that when I go > to work my techniques are relatively unknown. > > I might be a bit "hard-core" but I do my solo > training with a sharp blade. > > > I can only hope that those out there who teach the > FMA's are teaching the history of the Filippine > people, the history of the FMA's, and the intent of > our Art. It is my contention that the FMA's are NOT > a hobby or a sport. It is a way of life. I truly > believe in the Mandirigma mindset. Warriors first > and foremost. > > The FMA's have spawned too many heros throughout > history to forget the Why in the process of teaching > the How. > > > www.eskrimacustoms.com > Fine hand-crafted hardwood > bastons and training knives > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 21:12:17 -0800 (PST) From: Jesse Sandow Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Arnis field study To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Bot, Thanks for your response, I'm looking forward to hearing from you. Take care, JesS Felipe Jocano wrote: Hello Jesse, One of my fellow LSAI teachers is from the area. I will look for his website address and local cell number. Being an anthropology professor, I am happy that you are interested in Filipino martial arts for your research work. If you need help in this aspect, contact me and I'll see what I can do. Best, Bot --- Jesse Sandow wrote: > Greetings All, > > I'm an Anthropology student @ Gavilan Community > College and would like to do my field in our ancient > Martial Arts "Arnis". I will be visiting Metro > Manila (Las Pinas) March 21st - April 6, 2008. I > would like to interview/ observe a session or two. > Please consider my request for information, Dojo, > and/ contact person.Salamat Po in advance. > > JesS > > "James jr. sy" wrote: > Agree on that Master Jay. > > The flipping falls are the norm in Aikido but when > jointlocks such as kote gaeshi (wrist reversal) are > applied against somebody who doesn't know how t fall > in real life, he'll just fall in a less dramatic > way, albeit still with the same desired degree of > control after the fall. > > James Sy Jr. > > > jay de leon wrote: > "Beautiful movements have taken over much of martial > arts training, > and much of eskrima is no exception." > > Certain masters/oldtimers categorize their arnis > training or teaching > into two types: "pang-entablado" and "pamatay." > > "Pang-entablado" literally means "for the stage." > This is for show, > demos, possibly competition or maybe even just > self-expression. > This is where the beautiful movements come in--fancy > twirling, > complicated sinawali patterns, aerial moves, > choreographed > self-defense sequences, etc. > > 'Pamatay" literally means "for killing." This is the > combative aspect > of eskrima. > > I saw my guro Godofredo Fajardo do a double-stick > self-defense > demo wherein his uke went flying several times into > a front > somersault. (The uke was landing on soft grass in a > park.) > > Can he do this in actual combat? Maybe. But there is > no doubt in > my mind he can easily skewer anybody in a much more > simple and > less spectacular (less beautiful?) way. > > Jay de Leon > www.filipinofightingartsintl.com > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > > > > Work for LOVE & PEACE > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Work for LOVE & PEACE --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: <2@msfencing.org> To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Filipino language/s Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 07:42:18 -0600 Organization: 2@msfencing.org Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thank you Master de Leon and Master Sy for answering my questions about the repeating words. Blessings, Rez Johnson --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 02:54:46 -0800 (PST) From: B Katz Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Pretenders and McDojos To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr Malibago, I must say that your comment has put this issue to rest. It would seem that in a blinding flash of common sense you have ended the fight! I would love to drop by when my travels eventually lead me back out your way! B www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 21:17:23 -0800 (PST) From: Jesse Sandow Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Arnis Field Study - Visayan FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello James, WOW! Thanks very much...Where do you think I should star? Best, JesS "james jr. sy" wrote: Hi Jess, Have to agree with Bro Bo there. Consider these facts: Have a quick survey of the FMA community. You'll notice that Visayan styles figure prominently and most of the hybrid/eclectic styles were derived from them. Consider these 80 styles/systems which are visayan in origin: Abaniko Tres Puntas-Sangga Patama Alakdan Escrima Arjuka Bahad Zubu Bais Tres Manos Balintawak - Original Style Balintawak - Atillo Style Balintawak - Balintawok Balintawak - Nicklestick Style Balintawak - Tabimina Style Balintawak - Teovel Style Balintawak - Tres Personas Combate Balintawak - Villasin Style Baraw Sugbu BDU System Biņas Dynamic Arnis Black Eagle Eskrima Bohol Method Cabales Serrada Escrima Cinco Generales Comki De Campo 1-2-3 Orioginal Decuerdas Defensor Method Dekiti Tirsia Doce Generales Doce Pares - Original Style Doce Pares - Babao Arnis Doce Pares - Cagadas Style Doce Pares - Escribo Doce Pares - Eskrido Doce Pares - Multi Style System Doce Pares - San Miguel Escrima Doce Pares - Saavedra Style Doce Pares - Vicar Style Dugukan System Dumog Escrima de Caqmpo JDC-IO Gokosha Guarra Style Modern Arnis Hinigaran Arnis de Mano Inosanto Kali KaliSilat Kalis Ilustrisimo Karaan Tapado Kombatan Kruzada Lacoste Eskrima Lameco Lapu-Lapu Viņas Arnis Lapunti Arnis de Abanico Lema Scientific Kali Arnis System Lightning Scientific Arnis Moro-Moro Orabes Heneral Oido de Caburata - Aguilar Style Oido de Caburata - Gubaton Style Original Filipino Tapado Palakabanate Pangamot Pecate Arnis Pekiti Tirsia Philippine Dynamic Arnis - Galvarole Style Philippine Dynamic Arnis - Prologo Style Philippine Modern Arnis Presas Style Modern Arnis Pronus-Supinus Cadena De Mano System Ricarte Robas Otso Tiros Baston Arnis System Sarimanok Tanique Arnis Tapondo Tat Kon Tou Tendencia Arnis Trese Grabes Piga-Piga System Uno Blanco Arnis Vasquez Modified Tapado Villabrille Kali Warriors Escrima Yaming Yasay Sable There are more but they just escape my mind at the moment. If we were to believe the tale about the 10 Bornean Datus and them bringing their fighting arts to the islands, then we can assume that there will be a high concentration of said arts in the areas where they populated. Of course, this does not imply that the Luzon and Mindanao regions do not have a rich tradition of FMA. Actually they do. Just that the visayans are more known for their FMA. Hope this helps. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Message: 11 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:39:20 -0800 (PST) From: Jesse Sandow Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Arnis field study To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings All, I'm an Anthropology student @ Gavilan Community College and would like to do my field in our ancient Martial Arts "Arnis". I will be visiting Metro Manila (Las Pinas) March 21st - April 6, 2008. I would like to interview/ observe a session or two. Please consider my request for information, Dojo, and/ contact person.Salamat Po in advance. JesS --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Work for LOVE & PEACE --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 02:59:49 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Live blade Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ok, Im tired, and have been punched in the head too many times tonight, but just curious as to what live blade means to people on the forum? I know what it means to me, but curious what that means to others. For me, live blade training is not just doing solo practice (e.g. carrenzas, basics, cutting). I know for myself growing up Filipino meant growing up with a bolo in the hand, trimming weeds, cutting brush, using it for everything and anything. Telling a Filipino to add solo practice with a live blade(at least in my own experience), would be akin to telling them that they had to eat their meals with a fork and spoon, its already a given. For me, it is more than doing choregraphed two man drills with live blades. I guess Im stupid that way, a live blade in a choreographed drill doesnt impress me all that much. Where my eyes start to widen, and become impressed is when there are those who are willing to flow spar (e.g. a counter for counter exchange), in a non-choreographed arrangement, with intent to contact in their strikes, with live blade. Now of course, I would hope they would have the control not to kill their partners, but this is what old school live blade training means to me. This is why my Tatay did not want to learn Eskrima from his Lolo, because there was no rattan, instead the lessons were to be conducted by bolo alone. Then again, I know for some this is too dangerous, and rightly so it is dangerous. Yet when I hear live blade training, this is what pops into my mind. What does live blade training mean to you? Gumagalang Federico Malibago --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 07:37:37 -0800 (PST) From: Guru Mike Casto Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Live blade To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I consider all of the methods you mention to fall under the heading of "live blade" training - but each has its place in development. Solo practice of material and using blades for things like clearing brush are great for the young practitioner who has never used a blade like that before (here in the States there are *a lot* of people who have never done more than cut steak with a live blade). Choreographed partner drills are good for the intermediate who is comfortable with a blade in hand but who hasn't experienced that rush of having a live blade coming at him and felt that exchange of energy before. Unchoreographed flow sparring is good for people who have more experience and can do it with as much safety as possible - obviously, if someone screws up there's going to be blood but they should have developed their tools well enough that they should be able to do it with a minimum of risk. I've done all of these at various times in my training and found them all to be useful. When someone mentions "live blade" training to me, my default assumption is that they mean one of the first two because, at least here in the States, the third is rare. If I want to know what they mean, I ask for clarification. There's actually another type that I'm familiar with but haven't personally done. Some folks I know have set up simple machines (i.e.: using rope, stick, machetes) to build a sort of sparring dummy (I believe the Inayan [and possibly Serrada] guys refer to it as de Cuerdas but I'm sure someone can clarify my terminology if I'm mistaken). Anyway, they drill a hole through the middle of a stick and run the rope through it so the stick will hang horizontal but be free to move. Then they attach machetes to the ends of the stick. Then they start swinging at it ... and dealing with the resultant edged chaos. Having not done this one personally, I'm not sure where this would fit in the progression. It seems like it might be even more dangerous than unchoreographed flow sparring with a live partner because a live partner might be able to pull his blade or avoid cutting if there's a mistake. But, at the same time, it seems like it might be less dangerous because you'd have a fair amount of control over the speed at which your "partner" swings. Not sure - maybe some input from the guys on the list who have done this would provide some insight about where it might go in that progression. Mike --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Pretenders and McDojos Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 07:53:38 -0800 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Feb 28, 2008, at 2:18 PM, Federico Malibago wrote: > ... Furthermore, a public school probably already > has liability insurance, legal waivers, etc...dealing with the > inherent legal > dangers of doing a physical art, whereas in private if something > happens it > becomes an issue of your word versus his. In many cases this is part of the problem. "Hard" training is typically not done in public schools due to the liability issues. Instead of people thinking "I got hit, I need to eat more rice", people think "that mean old person just hit me, I'm going to see an attorney". Things will often (not always, but often) get watered down as the training moves from small backyard groups of tightly knit training partners to larger public schools of kids needing a place to go after school lets out. Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:43:03 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Live blade To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I believe we have had this thread before and I posted something but in the spirit of sharing, I will probably repeat myself. In addition to what Mike posted, we have or have had the following: (1) live blade solo drills with arnis dummy, wooden training posts, training posts wrapped in foam and duct tape (to simulate a softer target, using a folder most of the time), and similar drills. (2) we have done free-style counter-for-counter drills with dull machetes--the type you buy from surplus stores that are not very sharp. but what happens is after usage, they develop little steel nicks that cut like razors, which we then have to file down. A few comments: I believe Federico Malibago mentioning that a Filipino is as comfortable with a bolo as eating with a spoon and fork. True, but this is only true mostly for Filipinos in the provinces and slightly true for Filipinos in the city. I was a city boy, but i handled a bolo as a kid cutting branches from trees, etc. I had more practice in the province (in Pangasinan) for example using a real sharp bolo to cut bamboo. For the uninitiated, this can be dangerous. If you hit a real hard thick bamboo at the wrong angle, the bolo can bounce off and slice you. i know of some arnisadors in the phil. who do free-style live blade training, but most of them know what they are doing, and they do it with training partners they trust. in the US. my cousin GM Nes Fernandez regularly had his students doing free-style bolo training and many other live blade drills. I believe he sent his senior instructor twice to the hospital with knife wounds doing self-defense demo with a live knife. Not to state the obvious, yes, it can be dangerous. But nothing beats that adrenalin rush and the knowledge that you have "played" with a live blade. Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com Guru Mike Casto wrote: I consider all of the methods you mention to fall under the heading of "live blade" training - but each has its place in development. Solo practice of material and using blades for things like clearing brush are great for the young practitioner who has never used a blade like that before (here in the States there are *a lot* of people who have never done more than cut steak with a live blade). Choreographed partner drills are good for the intermediate who is comfortable with a blade in hand but who hasn't experienced that rush of having a live blade coming at him and felt that exchange of energy before. Unchoreographed flow sparring is good for people who have more experience and can do it with as much safety as possible - obviously, if someone screws up there's going to be blood but they should have developed their tools well enough that they should be able to do it with a minimum of risk. I've done all of these at various times in my training and found them all to be useful. When someone mentions "live blade" training to me, my default assumption is that they mean one of the first two because, at least here in the States, the third is rare. If I want to know what they mean, I ask for clarification. There's actually another type that I'm familiar with but haven't personally done. Some folks I know have set up simple machines (i.e.: using rope, stick, machetes) to build a sort of sparring dummy (I believe the Inayan [and possibly Serrada] guys refer to it as de Cuerdas but I'm sure someone can clarify my terminology if I'm mistaken). Anyway, they drill a hole through the middle of a stick and run the rope through it so the stick will hang horizontal but be free to move. Then they attach machetes to the ends of the stick. Then they start swinging at it ... and dealing with the resultant edged chaos. Having not done this one personally, I'm not sure where this would fit in the progression. It seems like it might be even more dangerous than unchoreographed flow sparring with a live partner because a live partner might be able to pull his blade or avoid cutting if there's a mistake. But, at the same time, it seems like it might be less dangerous because you'd have a fair amount of control over the speed at which your "partner" swings. Not sure - maybe some input from the guys on the list who have done this would provide some insight about where it might go in that progression. Mike _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest