Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 02:48:21 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #59 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: RE: fakes (Felipe Jocano) 2. Re: RE: fakes (adam babb) 3. Re: RE: fakes (Felipe Jocano) 4. Re: RE: fakes (Alex Lizardo) 5. Re: RE: fakes (Guru Mike Casto) 6. Re: RE: fakes (Belinda Alvarez) 7. Re: RE: fakes (Ray) 8. Nat Geo's "Dog Bro Fight Club" (Marc Denny) 9. Fakes and Mcdojos (Al Sardinas) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:13:31 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: fakes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, So this is what it boils down to, isn't it? This whole business of commercialism and mcdojofication is about false claims to skill, teaching prematurely, teaching what you didn't actually learn, making it up as you go along while actually clueless as to what this is supposed to be about. In contemporary terms, it's false advertising. In conversations with two of my teachers, this point of teaching prematurely came up. Both of them told me (separately and on separate occasions) that they didn't want to go for many students because too many people wanted to teach before they were ready. One of them imposed a condition before he would teach: the student was not allowed to teach until he/she was given specific permission to do so. My other teacher didn't actually do the same thing, but it was implied nonetheless from things that he said in passing. This scenario Ray described below: This happens quite often here in the Philippines. Except that you wouldn't know by video but rather from watching the person making the claim. If you knew the system, you knew the guro, you would know who got what from the way the person moved. Which provides moments of major embarrassment for false claimants when a senior of the system visits them in person and checks out their claims. Bot > No. They were smaller points that a person without > formal Inayan > training would likely do. Things that all beginners > and even many > experienced eskrimadors might do, things that would > even work, but > they were not optimal and therefore not Inayan. > > Ray Terry > EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 20:29:21 -0800 (PST) From: adam babb Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: fakes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net thats how it is here in my school my maestro haas to give us premission to teach --- Felipe Jocano wrote: > Hi all, > > So this is what it boils down to, isn't it? This > whole > business of commercialism and mcdojofication is > about > false claims to skill, teaching prematurely, > teaching > what you didn't actually learn, making it up as you > go > along while actually clueless as to what this is > supposed to be about. In contemporary terms, it's > false advertising. > > In conversations with two of my teachers, this point > of teaching prematurely came up. Both of them told > me > (separately and on separate occasions) that they > didn't want to go for many students because too > many > people wanted to teach before they were ready. One > of > them imposed a condition before he would teach: the > student was not allowed to teach until he/she was > given specific permission to do so. My other teacher > didn't actually do the same thing, but it was > implied > nonetheless from things that he said in passing. > > This scenario Ray described below: This happens > quite > often here in the Philippines. Except that you > wouldn't know by video but rather from watching the > person making the claim. If you knew the system, you > knew the guro, you would know who got what from the > way the person moved. Which provides moments of > major > embarrassment for false claimants when a senior of > the > system visits them in person and checks out their > claims. > > Bot > > > No. They were smaller points that a person > without > > formal Inayan > > training would likely do. Things that all > beginners > > and even many > > experienced eskrimadors might do, things that > would > > even work, but > > they were not optimal and therefore not Inayan. > > > > Ray Terry > > EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net > > _______________________________________________ > > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > > Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 01:08:12 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: fakes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Adam, and still, people violate the rule lots of times... have been witness to incidents like this... Bot --- adam babb wrote: > thats how it is here in my school my maestro haas to > give us premission to teach > --- Felipe Jocano wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 07:06:35 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Lizardo Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: fakes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Mike, from your handle I have deducted you are master, how did you recieve your training to become Guru, ----- Original Message ---- From: Guru Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Monday, March 3, 2008 8:48:24 AM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: fakes << Interestingly there are errors in some of Suro's Inayan videos that only a real Inayan would pick up on. Suro put them in so that we could tell if someone learned Inayan directly from him or only from the videos. >> That's not an uncommon practice. I'm familiar with several people/groups who have done similar. Another is Willem de Thouars - he didn't teach "errors" per se but he would teach a particular variation on a form (completely valid and not an "error" but with specific variations) to a particular group. Then, even years later, if he saw someone doing that variation of the form he knew exactly what their source was. Mike _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 07:30:18 -0800 (PST) From: Guru Mike Casto Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: fakes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net << ----- Original Message ---- From: Alex Lizardo To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 10:06:35 AM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: fakes Hey Mike, from your handle I have deducted you are master, how did you recieve your training to become Guru, >> A "master" ... not hardly. On a good day, I can get people to believe that I've "mastered" walking. I'm just a teacher and guide :-) I trained under my instructor until he said I was ready to test for instructorship. Then he tested me. Then I was given full permission to teach our system. I had helped him teach prior to that and had done some teaching on my own but with explicit permission from my instructor. Mike --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:14:42 -0500 From: "Belinda Alvarez" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: fakes Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello.. I am a student of Katalungan Walls in Inayan Eskrima...although I have been with the art a short time (just under a year). I have taken instruction at the Pittsburgh location of ISE and have seen some of the videos Mangisusuro Inay developed...the differences are subtle how a stick is held in chamber little things that you spot immediately when you train with a Guro. I questioned many things thinking wait we dont do it like that (did I miss this or leave it out) but being as I was looking at the video with Inayan eyes I could pick up the differences which a consumer thinking they can watch a video and be proficient would never see. With Respect, Belinda Alvarez On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Felipe Jocano wrote: > Hi all, > > So this is what it boils down to, isn't it? This whole > business of commercialism and mcdojofication is about > false claims to skill, teaching prematurely, teaching > what you didn't actually learn, making it up as you go > along while actually clueless as to what this is > supposed to be about. In contemporary terms, it's > false advertising. > > In conversations with two of my teachers, this point > of teaching prematurely came up. Both of them told me > (separately and on separate occasions) that they > didn't want to go for many students because too many > people wanted to teach before they were ready. One of > them imposed a condition before he would teach: the > student was not allowed to teach until he/she was > given specific permission to do so. My other teacher > didn't actually do the same thing, but it was implied > nonetheless from things that he said in passing. > > This scenario Ray described below: This happens quite > often here in the Philippines. Except that you > wouldn't know by video but rather from watching the > person making the claim. If you knew the system, you > knew the guro, you would know who got what from the > way the person moved. Which provides moments of major > embarrassment for false claimants when a senior of the > system visits them in person and checks out their > claims. > > Bot > > > No. They were smaller points that a person without > > formal Inayan > > training would likely do. Things that all beginners > > and even many > > experienced eskrimadors might do, things that would > > even work, but > > they were not optimal and therefore not Inayan. > > > > Ray Terry > > EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net > > _______________________________________________ > > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > > Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: fakes Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 09:06:43 -0800 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Mar 4, 2008, at 7:30 AM, Guru Mike Casto wrote: > << ----- Original Message ---- > From: Alex Lizardo > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 10:06:35 AM > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: fakes > > Hey Mike, from your handle I have deducted you are master, how did > you recieve your training to become Guru, >> > > A "master" ... not hardly. On a good day, I can get people to > believe that I've "mastered" walking. I'm just a teacher and guide :-) Then you are a master. Master, Guro... same same. from Webster... Main Entry: mas*ter Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English magister & Anglo-French meistre, both from Latin magister; Date: before 12th century 1 a (1): a male teacher ... Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 11:39:14 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Nat Geo's "Dog Bro Fight Club" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof Kendal: > Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:22:36 -0800 (PST) > From: Kendal Coats > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] Fight Club > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Bow Wow Marc, > Do you know if the National Geographic Channel will ever replay the > episode on the gathering? It doesn't look like NG will be issuing a DVD of the show, and I have been playing phone tag with Thom Beers over at Original Productions for a couple of weeks now. When I do get to him I will be asking about what I can do to make things happen for people who want to see the show but missed it the first time around. The Adventure continues, Marc/Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Al Sardinas" To: Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:37:08 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Fakes and Mcdojos Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To Mr. Federico Malibago, I am not a Filipino but when I first read your recent message on "The Watering Down of Eskrima" I got a chill. In its bluntness there was clarity and beauty of words that not only express your proudness to be a Filipino but defines the true purpose of the art we learn and the standards that every practitioner of FMA should yearn for. To Guro Maurice Gatdula, Although I may not always agree with every thing you write I enjoy your input because of its candidness and its freedom of hidden agendas. To the rest of members who occasionally write about the McDojos, the fakes etc. I would appreciate some more information: first of all throw in some background about yourself - your style, your teacher, your length of study, etc. It is always good to know whether or not that the source has some validity to condemn another person or school. Secondly, be specific - provide name of instructor or school you think is not worthy. This will help everyone else and the FMA's by exposing the persons and schools of low standards. To once again quote and plagiarize the clothing chain Syms - an educated FMA artist (consumer) is our best FMA artist (customer). Finally, I close with the two sentences from Mr. Malibago that gave me a chill - "I'm tired of hiding who I am, who we are as a people. Instead, Id rather stand on the mountain tops and declare that I'm Filipino, and we have something very very special to be proud of, and if you don't agree then I'll prove it." Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of the Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest