Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 23:13:00 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #60 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fakes and Mcdojos (jay de leon) 2. fakes - Promotion & teaching before Its Time (james jr. sy) 3. Re: Fakes and Mcdojos and where I'm coming from (B Katz) 4. RE: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #59 - Teaching and fighting with FMA (DeLeon, Oliver) 5. Re: fakes - Promotion & teaching before Its Time (jay de leon) 6. Master (Ollie Batts) 7. Re: RE: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #59 - Teaching and fighting with FMA (Daniel Arola) 8. Re: RE: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #59 - Teaching and fighting with FMA (Guru Mike Casto) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:51:57 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Fakes and Mcdojos To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To Mr. Al Sardinas: I suspect why those words resonate with you, in addition to stirring up feelings of pride in the art you practice. Those words sound like sentiments our own GP Abon Baet would shout from the mountain tops. Regards to my kapatid Abon and the Garimot family. Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com Al Sardinas wrote: To Mr. Federico Malibago, I am not a Filipino but when I first read your recent message on "The Watering Down of Eskrima" I got a chill. In its bluntness there was clarity and beauty of words that not only express your proudness to be a Filipino but defines the true purpose of the art we learn and the standards that every practitioner of FMA should yearn for. To Guro Maurice Gatdula, Although I may not always agree with every thing you write I enjoy your input because of its candidness and its freedom of hidden agendas. To the rest of members who occasionally write about the McDojos, the fakes etc. I would appreciate some more information: first of all throw in some background about yourself - your style, your teacher, your length of study, etc. It is always good to know whether or not that the source has some validity to condemn another person or school. Secondly, be specific - provide name of instructor or school you think is not worthy. This will help everyone else and the FMA's by exposing the persons and schools of low standards. To once again quote and plagiarize the clothing chain Syms - an educated FMA artist (consumer) is our best FMA artist (customer). Finally, I close with the two sentences from Mr. Malibago that gave me a chill - "I'm tired of hiding who I am, who we are as a people. Instead, Id rather stand on the mountain tops and declare that I'm Filipino, and we have something very very special to be proud of, and if you don't agree then I'll prove it." Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of the Garimot System of Arnis _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 01:50:19 -0800 (PST) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] fakes - Promotion & teaching before Its Time Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Prof, That's the case with the Original Filipino Tapado Long Stick Fighting Association (OFTLSFA), Inc. under 1st Generation Inheritor Grandmaster Benmefredo "Bebiong" Mamar Lobrido. The association has a rule that no member can teach unless he is certified to do so. The rule was come up in the early days of the association, in ther 1980s, when the Founder/Grandmaster Romeo "Nono" C. Mamar, the uncle of GM Lobrido, was still alive and headed the association. There were cases when certain individuals did teach even before they were ready to. They were sanctioned by the association by suspension, some expelled, like one case last year. In Original Filipino Tapado, the beginning student is asked to strike his hardest to develop his power and resistance to impact right from the start. It is the instructor who feeds the attack to the student. If the feeder is not properly trained, he is at risk of being hit by the student, who because he is just starting would still lack the control present in more advanced practitioners. Only one hard hit of the long stick to the hands is all it takes to put the istructor out of commission for weeks. So in effect this prohibition is a form of safety measure. Another reason for sucvh a rule is to ensure that the instructor candidate is really ready for the responsibility and not half baked. And also, it is to ensure that the art being passed on is what it is supposed to be. Such a set up would not be ideal for a McDojo setting, where a school would need to promote more instructors the shortest time possible. There is nothing wrong in a short training period except that an individual would not have accumulated enough experience to deal with any adverse situations that comes his way. As an example, Master Elmer V. Montoyo, the Founder of Filipino Tang Soo Do, was only promoted to Master in Original Filipino Tapado only after 20 years of study. The late Grandmaster Dominador "Doming" D. Ferrer of Kalantiaw Defense Society (KDS) (D: 2007), the oldest living grandmaster of Lapu-Lapu Viņas Arnis in the world before his demise, was only promoted to Master by his teacher, the late Founder/Grandmaster Jose "Joe" L. Viņas (1906-1991) only after 20 years of study (1959-1979). Another 7 years passed before he was recognized as a grandmaster. He was only awarded his 10th Degree in 2003 by the Founder's son, Headmaster Wilson "Nonong" E. Viņas. I'm not saying that the new generation will adopt such a time consuming process of promoting teachers. My two examples were from the old generatioon, when one's worth as a "Master" is only tested by personal combat or in some cases, actual achievements. Just my insights. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Felipe Jocano wrote: Hi all, So this is what it boils down to, isn't it? This whole business of commercialism and mcdojofication is about false claims to skill, teaching prematurely, teaching what you didn't actually learn, making it up as you go along while actually clueless as to what this is supposed to be about. In contemporary terms, it's false advertising. In conversations with two of my teachers, this point of teaching prematurely came up. Both of them told me (separately and on separate occasions) that they didn't want to go for many students because too many people wanted to teach before they were ready. One of them imposed a condition before he would teach: the student was not allowed to teach until he/she was given specific permission to do so. My other teacher didn't actually do the same thing, but it was implied nonetheless from things that he said in passing. This scenario Ray described below: This happens quite often here in the Philippines. Except that you wouldn't know by video but rather from watching the person making the claim. If you knew the system, you knew the guro, you would know who got what from the way the person moved. Which provides moments of major embarrassment for false claimants when a senior of the system visits them in person and checks out their claims. Bot > No. They were smaller points that a person without > formal Inayan > training would likely do. Things that all beginners > and even many > experienced eskrimadors might do, things that would > even work, but > they were not optimal and therefore not Inayan. > > Ray Terry > EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 03:53:16 -0800 (PST) From: B Katz Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Fakes and Mcdojos and where I'm coming from To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just checking in with my background. I began my martial studies at 15 in an EXTREMELY traditional Okinawan Isshin-ryu school in the Metro Detroit area. Most students didn't last much longer than a few months. My introduction in eskrima began a few years back with my introduction to Guro Alan McLuckie and his senior (at that time) student. I have since moved on to becoming a full member of the Midwest School of Eskrima studying with Guro Kim Satterfield. The MSE is an "individual expression" of eskrima from the Inayan tradition. My Guro and my Guro's Guro both studied with Suro Mike Inay. We are a band of brothers that hit each other hard. No fear of litigation, no trips to the ER, unless its REALLY necessary. I TRUST my training partners with my life, my money AND my wife. (A joke for you old Marines out there...) And, yeah... I still have problems with anything mass produced or sanitized for your comfort, particularly neutered martial arts. Our art has a bloody history, trained and taught by some of the toughest men that you would care to meet for the purpose of saving their lives in war and protecting those near and dear to them. This is a tradition not lost on me. www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 10:13:26 -0500 From: "DeLeon, Oliver" To: Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #59 - Teaching and fighting with FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, I have been studying Filipino Martial arts for 1.5 year now and got permission from my guru to start teaching, as one of you mentioned I had to prove that I new certain concepts and techniques before passing my test. After I passed my test my guru has allow me to teach the class under his supervision and although I'm a guru now, it feels like I need a lot of experience teaching. You can claim that you know certain concepts and techniques but that doesn't mean that you know how to perform them. One thing I learned is that by teaching other under my guru's supervision I've learned a lot more then by just practicing the art. Has anybody used Filipino Martial arts to defend them selves? I realized that by learning this art (Cerrada Eskrima) the fights should not last more then 10 sec. or so. Do you agree? Specially against someone untrained. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 08:01:07 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] fakes - Promotion & teaching before Its Time To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi James: Excellent points, as usual. The other point that gives me pause a lot of times is the fact that many of these real deal masters were/are still "on the floor" in their seventies and even eighties, and they are mixing it up with students in their prime, young enough to be their grandsons. Of course, the most famous living example would probably be Manong Cacoy Canete. Late masters would include Dominador Ferrer, Inting Carin, and many others. Currently here in the US, for example, we have the venerable Ramiro Estallila. I dare not mention others of indeterminate age, for fear they might not take it too kindly for being included in this august company, when they can still hold their own with anybody, any age. By the way, the tagalog expression for somebody teaching too soon, without the necessary experience is "hilaw," which literally means "raw" as the food is still raw and still needs more cooking. It probably also applies to would-be masters. As you pointed out, they need to be in the fire at least maybe 20 years. At least by Philippine standards. Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com "james jr. sy" wrote: Hi Prof, That's the case with the Original Filipino Tapado Long Stick Fighting Association (OFTLSFA), Inc. under 1st Generation Inheritor Grandmaster Benmefredo "Bebiong" Mamar Lobrido. The association has a rule that no member can teach unless he is certified to do so. The rule was come up in the early days of the association, in ther 1980s, when the Founder/Grandmaster Romeo "Nono" C. Mamar, the uncle of GM Lobrido, was still alive and headed the association. There were cases when certain individuals did teach even before they were ready to. They were sanctioned by the association by suspension, some expelled, like one case last year. In Original Filipino Tapado, the beginning student is asked to strike his hardest to develop his power and resistance to impact right from the start. It is the instructor who feeds the attack to the student. If the feeder is not properly trained, he is at risk of being hit by the student, who because he is just starting would still lack the control present in more advanced practitioners. Only one hard hit of the long stick to the hands is all it takes to put the istructor out of commission for weeks. So in effect this prohibition is a form of safety measure. Another reason for sucvh a rule is to ensure that the instructor candidate is really ready for the responsibility and not half baked. And also, it is to ensure that the art being passed on is what it is supposed to be. Such a set up would not be ideal for a McDojo setting, where a school would need to promote more instructors the shortest time possible. There is nothing wrong in a short training period except that an individual would not have accumulated enough experience to deal with any adverse situations that comes his way. As an example, Master Elmer V. Montoyo, the Founder of Filipino Tang Soo Do, was only promoted to Master in Original Filipino Tapado only after 20 years of study. The late Grandmaster Dominador "Doming" D. Ferrer of Kalantiaw Defense Society (KDS) (D: 2007), the oldest living grandmaster of Lapu-Lapu Viņas Arnis in the world before his demise, was only promoted to Master by his teacher, the late Founder/Grandmaster Jose "Joe" L. Viņas (1906-1991) only after 20 years of study (1959-1979). Another 7 years passed before he was recognized as a grandmaster. He was only awarded his 10th Degree in 2003 by the Founder's son, Headmaster Wilson "Nonong" E. Viņas. I'm not saying that the new generation will adopt such a time consuming process of promoting teachers. My two examples were from the old generatioon, when one's worth as a "Master" is only tested by personal combat or in some cases, actual achievements. Just my insights. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 18:30:13 +0000 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Master Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "from Webster... Main Entry: mas*ter Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English magister & Anglo-French meistre, both from Latin magister; Date: before 12th century 1 a (1): a male teacher ... Ray Terry" (Other names include: Maitre and Maister) Master = n. a person (esp male) who commands or controls; a lord or owner; a leader or ruler; a teacher;... a person eminently skilled in anything... etc., etc. The Chambers Dictionary --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 10:46:18 -0800 (PST) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #59 - Teaching and fighting with FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Throughout my years of practice, I'm aware of Only ONE RULE when it comes to utilizing what you learned in a life-or-death confrontation.... STAY ALIVE. Daniel Arola "DeLeon, Oliver" wrote: Hi, I have been studying Filipino Martial arts for 1.5 year now and got permission from my guru to start teaching, as one of you mentioned I had to prove that I new certain concepts and techniques before passing my test. After I passed my test my guru has allow me to teach the class under his supervision and although I'm a guru now, it feels like I need a lot of experience teaching. You can claim that you know certain concepts and techniques but that doesn't mean that you know how to perform them. One thing I learned is that by teaching other under my guru's supervision I've learned a lot more then by just practicing the art. Has anybody used Filipino Martial arts to defend them selves? I realized that by learning this art (Cerrada Eskrima) the fights should not last more then 10 sec. or so. Do you agree? Specially against someone untrained. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net DAMAG-INC [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] http://www.damag-inc.zoomshare.com Houston, Texas --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 12:55:03 -0800 (PST) From: Guru Mike Casto Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #59 - Teaching and fighting with FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net My background: I started training in general in the spring of '78. I started in TKD and spent several years there. When my instructor quit teaching for personal reasons I went to the other TKD school in the area. It wasn't for me (the instructor was, to put it bluntly, a bully) and I quit after a month. That left me with Judo or Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate. I opted for Goju-Ryu. I trained in that for several years until my parents pulled me out because I was a freshman in high school at the time (this would have been the spring of '86) and the Karate classes routinely ran until 10 PM on school nights (the class was at the Police Athletic Club and most of the class was comprised of police officers). For the next seven years, I had no formal training but got together routinely with friends who were training in a variety of disciplines. We'd meet in someone's back yard (usually mine) on weekends. We'd all share things from our backgrounds and, in the case of most of the other guys, what they were currently learning. We'd all train and compare notes and then we'd spar. It was a sort of back yard cross-training group. While I had no formal training during that time I consider it a very valuable time in my MA development. I was introduced to a variety of other martial arts and perspectives. In '93, at age 22, having been exposed to quite a few MAs and not having found anything that suited me better than Goju-Ryu, I returned to Goju-Ryu. I trained in that until Feb. '95. In Feb. '95, I was introduced to Sikal. Sikal is a hybrid of elements from several systems of FMA and Indonesian Pentjak Silat. Because of the eye that I had developed during those 7 years of back yard banging I realized immediately that Sikal was for me. It felt like I had found home after 17 years of searching. Sikal - especially the Silat aspects - fit me like a glove then and still does. In Sep. '99, I tested for and received my instructorship in Sikal. At the time, I lived in Ohio near my instructor's school. Over the next few years, I was given more and more teaching responsibilities. I was a full instructor and a pretty seasoned martial artist but was still very young as a teacher. It was nice to have the continued guidance of my instructor during that time. In Jan. '02, I moved to Texas. I taught full-time at a school there while also training in their system, Shen Chuan. Shen Chuan specializes in rapid, fluid striking, balance disruptions and joint locks. The striking was a great compliment to my FMA striking and the balance disruption was a great compliment to my Silat. I gained more depth and breadth in my understanding of these elements ... and, in turn, Shen Chuan was influenced by what I brought to it from Sikal. My primary motivation for training in Shen Chuan, though, was the joint locks. I've always liked joint locks and the Shen Chuan instructors (especially the founder, Joe Lansdale) are incredible with locks and with teaching them. We have joint locks in Sikal, of course, but since that is a specialty of Shen Chuan, I gained *a lot* more depth of understanding about joint locks while training there. In Oct. '03, I moved to Louisville, KY. I taught in my living room for a time, then in my garage once my wife & I bought a house. Then I got invited to teach my classes at a school that, at the time, was teaching BJJ and Shaolin Kempo Karate. The school, though, was looking to branch out and diversify. They invited me to teach my classes there and, after meeting with the owners/instructors, I went for it. Since then, they've brought in a Wing Tzun instructor who teaches there and, recently, one of my students (who is a Tai Chi instructor) began teaching Tai Chi there. For me, it's great because the school handles all the paperwork & billing for my students. All I have to do is go in and teach. So, to save you guys some math, I've been involved in MA in general for 30 years and counting. I have had 23 years of formal training in TKD, Okinawan Goju-Ryu, Sikal and Shen Chuan. I've also had quite a bit of ad hoc training with guys like GM Cacoy Canete and Willem "Uncle Bill" de Thouars (and several others) - training in things which have directly influenced Sikal and that I consider, for myself, part of my Sikal training. But the time I've spent with these guys - these living legends - is time I value highly. There's nothing like spending quality time with the most senior living exponents of a system to help you understand the essence of that system. Sikal has been my core and primary emphasis since '95 (13 years and counting). Everything else was either supplementary to my Sikal (like my Shen Chuan training) or it was "root" training for Sikal (i.e.: specific training in systems that have influenced Sikal - the "roots" of Sikal). Mike --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest