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From eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Mon Mar 24 08:15:27 2008 Return-Path: Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (tarsus.bollow.ch [82.195.230.222]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id m2ODFQZ04438 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:15:26 -0500 Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tarsus.bollow.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6B7AB28735; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:16:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:15:01 +0100 Message-ID: <20080324141501.23372.90578.Mailman@tarsus.bollow.ch> From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #80 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. 1992 Manila World Championship Demo Clips (Ryan Gruhn) 2. A Complete Master (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. Re: the subject of "masters" (Felipe Jocano) 4. Qualities of a Master (Eric Taimanglo) 5. Re: Qualities of a Master (Ray) 6. Re: Qualities of a Master (jay de leon) 7. THE MASTER IN PRE SPANISH PHILIPPINES (james jr. sy) 8. Re: Thank's my though in FMA (james jr. sy) 9. Re: the subject of "masters" (james jr. sy) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Ryan Gruhn" To: Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:26:03 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] 1992 Manila World Championship Demo Clips Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey All, I have been meaning to send these clips out to the list for a while but just recently had a chance. My late instructor Bill Gebhardt and current instructor Kevin Seaman competed in the world championships in Manila, January of 1992. These are some clips of the demonstrations of the various styles and systems from the days prior to the competition. As I dissect the clips I am going to post more information on what grandmasters are shown and where in the clips they can be found. If you have any information on the clips please feel free to send it my way. Here they are: HYPERLINK "http://realcontactfighter.com/wordpress/?p=46"http://realcontactfighter.com /wordpress/?p=46 – (Clips 1-4) HYPERLINK "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trgsktm0c_c"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t rgsktm0c_c – Clip 5 HYPERLINK "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjnMup5FaDw"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E jnMup5FaDw – Clip 6 HYPERLINK "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYynFeXGIhU"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g YynFeXGIhU – Clip 7 HYPERLINK "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laMZ91nnUJw"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l aMZ91nnUJw - Clip 8 HYPERLINK "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD0vPeaQI-g"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y D0vPeaQI-g – Clip 9 HYPERLINK "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pleHPuj7O70"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p leHPuj7O70 – Master Nilo Limpin I have a lot more footage but would rather receive expressed permission from certain people first before I post it. Lots of competition footage as well. Enjoy! Ryan Gruhn Cell: 814.769.6092 MSN: HYPERLINK "mailto:ryangruhn@hotmail.com"ryangruhn@hotmail.com AIM & Yahoo & ICQ: RyanGruhn HYPERLINK "http://www.ryangruhn.com/"http://www.ryangruhn.com/ 361 West Whitehall Rd. State College, PA 16801 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1338 - Release Date: 3/21/2008 5:52 PM --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:31:35 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] A Complete Master Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/23/08 8:49:10 PM, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > > I suspect that a true master also feels very humbled whenever he hears > > himself called a master because he realizes that it would take more  > > than one > > lifetime to truly completely master anything, especially his own self. > > If one difinition of Master is this, then master is just word, it cannot be fullfilled by anyone. If we are looking at more than one lifetime? If a master is takes more than one lifetime, what about the Grandmasters? it takes them what? This nonsense.. just words, just phrase to make it sound you know what you are talking about.. That the reason why I stick to Gat Puno (chieftain) or head of the clan, that I organized. Grandmasters is s big title and it came with larger responsibilities. If a master is one lifetime, then this so called Grandmasters live multiple lifetimes? Common be real??? well, i guess you have all the right on your opinion.. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00 030000000001) --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 20:25:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] the subject of "masters" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It is? Yay! Although I'm still willing to shell out for a hardcopy :-) thanks for the info! Bot --- Steve Ames wrote: > On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 08:17:52PM -0700, Felipe > Jocano wrote: > > I've been waiting for a copy of Paradoxes of > Defence > > to hit our shores. Maybe I've been looking in the > > wrong bookstores :-( > > Its online. Read for free: > > http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/GSilver.htm > > There are at least three other copies available on > the net > also. Just google them up. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:35:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Taimanglo To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Qualities of a Master Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I think the whole master thing began when Stephen Hayes introduced Masaaki Hatsumi to the world in his "Secrets Of The Ninja" as "Grandmaster". Also I recall Michael Echanis introducing Hwa Rang Do founder Joo Bang Lee as "Supreme Grandmaster". And then people just ran with it. Anyway, my definition of a Master? The person who doesn't look like one. And now for some movie lines... SHONUFF: Who is the master! LEROY: I am... __________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Qualities of a Master Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:50:56 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I think the whole master thing began when Stephen Hayes introduced > Masaaki Hatsumi to the world in his "Secrets Of The Ninja" as > "Grandmaster". That was about 1980 I believe. It is thought that in the early to mid 1970s He-young Kimm invented the term Grandmaster for In Hyuk Suh of Kuk Sool Won. And he has regretted it ever since. Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 22:38:44 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Qualities of a Master To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "...invented the term Grandmaster for...." I assume you mean, he was the first to use the title Grandmaster in a martial arts context, in this case Kuk Sool Won.. The term grandmaster has been around for quite a few centuries by this time. It has been used by the Knights Templars and many other knight organizations, the Masons, the international chess federation and many others. Now it is even used in hip-hop by Grandmaster Flash. Wait till some other hip-hop artist realize that he can actually supersize that title. Language is indeed a living thing. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com Ray wrote: > I think the whole master thing began when Stephen Hayes introduced > Masaaki Hatsumi to the world in his "Secrets Of The Ninja" as > "Grandmaster". That was about 1980 I believe. It is thought that in the early to mid 1970s He-young Kimm invented the term Grandmaster for In Hyuk Suh of Kuk Sool Won. And he has regretted it ever since. Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 03:55:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" To: Eskrima Digest Subject: [Eskrima] THE MASTER IN PRE SPANISH PHILIPPINES Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A master or Agalon in Hiligaynon/Ilonggo from a Pre Spanish Philippine perspective simply means that, one being served by people lower in stature than him. Pre Spanish Filipinos are categorized as Maharlika (Nobles), Timawa (Freemen), and Alipin (Slaves). The slaves would call their owners Agalon (Master). This has a parallel in Japanese feudal society where the Samurai serve their master, the Daimyo or the Shogun. The word Samurai literally means "One who Serves" or "Servant" so a Samurai from a societal point of view can not be called a master even if he is more skilled than the Daimyo or the shogun simply because his caste is much lower than the ruling class. Of course, there was the ryu-ha system, which was based on a familial foundation and recognizes a headmaster. In ancient India, a master would have more of a religious spiritual connotation. With all this said, the title master used in modern martial arts parlance is simply an evolution of the heirarchy of various societies, but as applied to martial arts, the master having his followers. We will have to see if such adaption of the term master in MA will survive in the next generations. James U. Sy Jr. --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 03:29:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Thank's my though in FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Manong abon Magandang araw po sa inyo. The eslrimadors I've met in Cebu gave me a very warm welcome. My only regret is there was not enough time. I agree with the points you raised GP Abon. Our FMA is in a sad state just like the Japanese Martial Arts with all the Soke Dockey spread all over the US. It's a buyer's market nowadays; the demand overshadows the supply. I would agree with Prof. Bot also that a true measure of a master is in how he moves and brings himself. But in the end, the term master is a very subjective honorific, as dictated by culture, history, etc. Gumagalang, James U. Sy Jr. GatPuno@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 3/19/08 8:49:05 PM, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 03:44:17 -0700 (PDT) > From: "james jr. sy" > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] GM Blancia? Records?? > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Hi Manong Abon, > > In my travels to Iloilo I've come across the name of GM Angel L. Blancia. > He indeed has a reputation of being a good fighter, albeit the average > person wouldn't necessarily know that he existed. GM Blancia was like the usual > Arnisador, not much is written about him and whatever details in existence > right now are based on personal dealings with him by his students. No books, > magazines, or other media sources, at least up to this point. > > Panay is a large chunk of island, Iloilo being the capital. Antique is > one of the provinces situated in the Panay Island while Tibiao is a place in > Antique. > > I was introduced to one of GM Blancia's students way back about 2 years > ago. I'm impressed with what little that was shown to me. Traditional. > Tight. Short. Power. > > James U. Sy Jr. > Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. > > > James, Thank you from your note. I am serious when I said I would really like to learn from someone like them. I am planning to visit Cebu. Ilo-Ilo, HInigaran, I would like to explore Visayan island and meet as many good Eskrimadores as I can possibly meet. Off-course would love to exchange "blow" to some of them too, just to feel the warm welcome of true Eskrimador. Okay, here is my thought in FMA in general: I have no doubt, that the arts they practices is good, I believed that there are no "Bad" FMA, all is good, the one that make it "Bad" is when they sold "Master Certificate" and not even know how to hold and swing the sticks. I know a lot of Masters in FMA specially here in US, that not really a Masters, to us we can call them "Master Kuno" (wanna be). Is it a number of your student to be called you are master, or the quality of your skills? I am amids fan of the shows performer, like now a lot of FMA are developed a good routines to attract massive group of students (strictly good business strategy). I watch them and God knows how little benefits they can get to their arrange routines, but it sells out their business. I also seen a good "Master" do a good Eskrima but somehow this good "Master" dont have much students? You know why, everyone is looking easy training, less time in a short time, so you are called "Masters" in with no much time effort.. I am fan of them, becaused I can't do what they can do, lied to people.. Stealing their money in exchange of "Bad" fighting strategies, it's a Self Defenseless arts. This is where I step in, challenge every single one of them, to step up o the ladder of training, and Sparring is a good start to wake them up and smell the aroma of stick burning from your hits. Speeds drills, drill npattern, syncronized dance, all looking good and to say that they can really fights, its too good to be truth if every strikes is succesfully blocked and counters.. In reality, this is has little effectiveness, you should know strategically how sto finish the fight, not only to start the fight, and come what may the rest.. Somehow we need to learn how to finish the fight, not only blocking, and continuos blocking to a form of flows of blocks. Majority of system of today is in this form,, just block here, block here, and block here.. During my lesson from my numbers of Maestros, they forbids me to blocks, it's a waste of time, what they what me to do is stop them, the blocks become removes the "B" it becomes "locks" only, meaning stop. Locks not necessarilly arm bar, wrist locks, it means "stopping" your opponent of being able to attack again, stopping him by means of putting him out of commision (knock him out, striking , chocking, bone breaking, etc.). Majority of FMA I have seen of today, is 50/50, they just hit each other like no tomorrow, till one has more hit that the other one.. Try not to get hit and effectively hit your opponents, that is skill..then you can call yourself Eskrimador. Well, just my thought,, be well and hope it give little idea to others, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00 030000000001) _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 03:40:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] the subject of "masters" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Something similar to traditional Filipino, Chinese, and Japanese Martial Arts. Arnisadors of old would often "visit" fellow Arnisadors who have established a reputation for themselves and "test" him. If the reputed master "convinces" his visitors, then the other fighters of the area respects him as a master. Chinese Boxing masters and wandering Samurai would travel from place to place to teach their arts and to challenge renoqned masters in the areas they are visiting. Best regards. James U. Sy Jr. Jonathan Kessler wrote: George Silver, one of those Masters of Defence from the 16th century, propses the following as a fair test (England was being swarmed with foreign fencers claiming "mastery" much as in the US a few years back there was a sort of unquestioning acceptance of anything claiming to be an esoteric Asian fighting art...) I think what he proposes is quite fair and sensible... "And this is the trial: They shall play with such weapons as they profess to teach withal(4), three bouts apiece with three of the best English masters of defence & three bouts apiece with three unskillful valiant men, and three bouts apiece with three resolute men half drunk. Then if they can defend themselves against these masters of defence, and hurt, and go free from the rest, then are they be honored, cherished, and allowed for perfect good teachers, and what countrymen soever they be. But if any of these they take fail, then they are imperfect in their profession, their fight is false, & they are false teachers, deceivers and murderers, and to be punished accordingly, yet no worse punishment unto them I wish, than such as in their trial they shall find." By the way the whole manuscript ("Paradoxes of Defence") is a great read. JK Felipe Jocano wrote: Hi Kim, Reading this and the other posts on the topic so far makes me appreciate the rules of the Masters of Defense of 17th-18th century England (did I get the dates right? Somebody correct me). If I remember reading correctly in Christoph Amberger's Secret History of the Sword, it took 14 years of constant supervised training before one was granted the right to teach "ye Noble Art of Defence" on one's own and be accorded the rank of Master. Which, judging from the description was pretty comprehensive. It would probably take that long to be at the level which Gat Puno Abon describes, both in terms of technique and maturity. My own view of a master is: 1. If someone claims he/she's a master, chances are...not, certificates and titles notwithstanding. I've met people introduced to me as master this-and-that. When I saw them move... Then this guy is introduced as so-and-so, no titles or anything. And when he moves, well, here's the real deal. 2. The real masters don't stand on their papers, their words and actions say it all. One of the best examples I've met from within our ranks in LSAI is a man who embodies both the best in skill and depth of maturity that is hard to find in someone else. He was one of GM Lema's top students. In terms of skill, we met up with him after GM Lema's funeral and he crossed sticks with our group. Now in Pilipino we say "Pinilahan siya," meaning that a group literally lined up on a single person. Its a metaphor for an unfair match by any means. In this case, "Pinilahan niya kami," meaning he lined up on us. Which is to say we were all dead meat in his hands. That's the skill part. In terms of humility and maturity, he seemed to lack the distilled machismo found in many younger eskrimadors. You wouldn't know he knew anything until you had the chance to cross sticks with him. Then... He had the humility many of us talk about and few seem to embody yours truly among them. Other masters I know of, both living and passed on, have embodied this characteristic. They had devastating skill balanced with bravery and yet tempered with humility. None of them called themselves master, all of them called themselves students. 3. If a master creates masterpieces, take into account at what stage the master is in his/her work. I know of masters who are truly masters but whose students are still far from achieving the desired maturity that reflects well on their teacher. Their teacher has quite a task ahead in shaping the student's character. I have been privileged to train under several true masters and I sometimes wonder if, when regarding me, they nodded with satisfaction at a job well done or else (which is more likely) they shook their heads, sighed and thought about how much more work they had to do on me. Or about how much they had to undo. Bot --- Kim Satterfield wrote: > Hi all, > > To paraphrase something I heard a while ago, but > still rings true, a "master" creates "masterpieces." > Anyone can be physically adept, but to truly call > someone a master, they should be able to pass on > their art to others in such a way that their lineage > remains strong. Their students should be physically > skilled, and have a depth of understanding of the > art that they in turn can pass it on, and so on, and > so on, without the art becoming diluted. > > Kim Satterfield > > > > This brings up a good question. What are the > characteristic qualities, > attributes and abilities of a real "Master" of a > martial art, such as > Eskrima? > > Grace and Peace, > Rez > > > -- __--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > Old digest issues @ > ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima > > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, > MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com > Standard disclaimers apply. > Remember September 11. > > End of Eskrima Digest > > > > In the words of the late, great John Belushi, "Wise > Up" > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest