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From eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Tue Mar 25 16:00:19 2008 Return-Path: Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (tarsus.bollow.ch [82.195.230.222]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id m2PL0Ed20277 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:00:14 -0500 Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tarsus.bollow.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B5AB2833E; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:01:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:00:04 +0100 Message-ID: <20080325220004.22900.40494.Mailman@tarsus.bollow.ch> From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #82 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Master and Grammar (GatPuno@aol.com) 2. Re: the subject of "masters" (Alex Lizardo) 3. RE: Master and Grammar (2@msfencing.org) 4. The Edge Stickfighting Championships is Back!!! (Martial Way) 5. Re: Who is a True Master!! (ILDEFONSO ODAL) 6. The truth about arnis, escrima and kali (Eskrima-FMA) 7. Re: Master and Grammar (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:02:14 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Master and Grammar Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/24/08 8:49:21 PM, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Message: 6 > From: <2@msfencing.org> > To: > Subject: RE: [Eskrima] A Complete Master > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:34:03 -0600 > Organization: 2@msfencing.org > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > > If one difinition of Master is this, then master is just word, it cannot > > be > > fullfilled by anyone. If we are looking at more than one lifetime? If a > > master > > is takes more than one lifetime, what about the Grandmasters? it takes > > them > > what? This nonsense.. just words, just phrase to make it sound you know > > what > > you > > are talking about.. > > Dear Mr. Baet, > > Your true meaning in your posts are often difficult to understand due to the > grammar structure you use. I hope that this is the case here and that I am > misunderstanding your intent. However, it appears in the above reply that > you are making the personal attack of accusing me of "saying nonsense to > sound like I know what I am talking about." If that is your meaning then I > take offense at that because I was only repeating what I was told by the > only two true masters I have had personal contact with (both were actually > Grand Masters). What I stated (and you called nonsense) is a common thought > in many oriental cultures and in Martial arts, that one never truly masters > anything because all arts are always changing, evolving, improving. There is > always something new to learn and so you are always a student and never a > master in the full and complete sense of the word. The related statement > which I have also always heard expressed in conjunction with the above is > that if someone tells you they are a master then you can rest assured that > they are not. > > The subject heading in my message was "Complete Master." Do you truly know > any complete masters? Do you truly know anyone who has mastered all there is > to know about self-defense? Most sincere masters would be humble enough to > admit they have not mastered all there is to know about self-defense. I > think this is why most true masters are humbled when others call them master > and prefer not to refer to themselves as masters as Master Terry has also > stated. > > Grace and Peace, > Rez > > Dear Master Rez, If you having a having difficulties of understanding my grammar, then why do you think I am attacking you in personally? This is open furum, if is not make sense to you my post, then ask for clarification, dont assume is a personal attack. I often post with more than personal attack words, but we deal with it in a mature way. I am responding to someone post about difinition of Masters it will take more than a lifetime, and I think is not your post that I was responding to. If I am not mistaken, is someone else. I am asking a question, if he think to reach the mastery, it will take one lifetime? Well, I am only wondering if this the case, there is none of us here in the digest can fulfilled that position, so If none of us cannot fullfilled to be masters, becaused I am only half of lifetime of my fathers right now, so I was wondering, if a master is more one lifetime to achieved, what about the Grandmasters? This is what I call non-sense.. I know you are not agreeing with me..Oh well you have the right on your own opinion, and I believed I have the right on mind too, am I right? Also you are the one who open the subject about "master" and Eskrima in particular question you asked. Therefore I am talking about Eskrima, not the Medieval arts of fencing, you asked for master of Eskrima then you got the Eskrima Master answer. In your question if I know a complete "master" the answer is Yes, my father is more than a master to me he is a Grandmaster. He can teach like you said one qualities, he can fight and he is humble, when he is sleeping. Are you aware of the tradition of Eskrima, Arnis before talking humbleness? Sometime ago, I watched the Grandfather Speak, DVD that Guro Marc Denny gave me. Let me tell you, GM Angel Cabales, is challenging other master to fight him, he is sound very upset, I dont see that humble way. Its a tradition that we have to live by. We as Traditional Eskrimador we challenge other master and grandmaster is not necessary to be humble, or else they would declined the challenge. If we have to go by the other Masrtial Arts, we cannot be qualified to be called Masters. So I have to be humble, if I become Master, is that what you are saying? Then this not making any sense too. In regards of my grammar, I am not an English teacher, and this is not my first language, but I can get by. Sorry, if you are having difficulties to understand my post, that make it two of us. I am having difficulties to my grammar too. But I am working on it, I believed other understand my point, that's enough for me. I dont need to please you or other reader to correct and edit to be grammatically correct.. sorry.. If it sound like I am attacking you to personal, then you have a choice of responding personal too, or ingnores me like others do. Also on you last post, to us is not necessary to be a good teacher to be a good fighter, becaused I know a lot of Eskrimadores, that cannot teach, becaused they choose not to, but they can give a heck of a fights. I dont agree with your post, that the good master has to be a good teacher, not necessary true in Master of Eskrima not all of them anyway. Hope this post help clarifies my post, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 06:12:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Lizardo Subject: Re: [Eskrima] the subject of "masters" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I do not usally post because I have no registered training of any matial arts. I learned self defence from my uncle as little boy around the age of five till he died when I was around twentyfive. My grandfather and his brothers came to the United states 1925, my fillipino family are both llicano and besyan desent and background born raised in the fillipines as young boy the spoke the language to me I responded in english I have long sence forgoten who to comunicate in the language. My post is about the terms grand master and master although my Grandfather never spoke of his status as one all his village mates respected and reviered him my memories are mostly of chicken fights my uncles trained me first with emty hands second with sticks finally with bolo and machete I concider them true masters of my family's art of self defence. I was drawn to this site by my discovery that there was a name for the form they taught me as a child much to my surprise the only name I ever knew here was either kung fu Ti kwon do or Karate I was and have greatfull for all of the discusions in in here as my realatives have long since past on. I am respectfull of my hearitage but find some discomfort in some of the post I have read about grammer and such things. my opinion is this we all have teachers or uncles and grandfathers in my case who we revers as master or grandmaster it is not achieved by life time just by repect of what you are being taught I dont claim my training would stack up in a realm of points as my training was always for life if some one would atack me I would react with what I was taught and there would be a death not a point given I would live or he would. So my point I hope to understood as my grand master would be my grandfather my masters would be simply my loved uncles and my students are my grandchildren and nephews and nieces my intent is not self regognition or wealth just passing love respect and what I learned as a child. thank you for your discussions about these things. keep them up. ----- Original Message ---- From: Steve Ames To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 10:40:53 AM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] the subject of "masters" On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 08:17:52PM -0700, Felipe Jocano wrote: > I've been waiting for a copy of Paradoxes of Defence > to hit our shores. Maybe I've been looking in the > wrong bookstores :-( Its online. Read for free: http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/GSilver.htm There are at least three other copies available on the net also. Just google them up. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 From: <2@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Master and Grammar Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 09:36:34 -0600 Organization: 2@msfencing.org Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dear Master Baet and list, I want to apologize for my last post. I see that it went to the whole list. I thought I was sending it off list and did not intend for everyone to read it. Again, my apologies. I do respect Master Baet's opinions, even in instances where we disagree. Grace and Peace, Rez > If you having a having difficulties of understanding my grammar, then why > do > you think I am attacking you in personally? This is open furum, if is not > make > sense to you my post, then ask for clarification, dont assume is a > personal > attack. I often post with more than personal attack words, but we deal > with it > in a mature way. > > I am responding to someone post about difinition of Masters it will take > more > than a lifetime, and I think is not your post that I was responding to. If > I > am not mistaken, is someone else. I am asking a question, if he think to > reach > the mastery, it will take one lifetime? Well, I am only wondering if this > the > case, there is none of us here in the digest can fulfilled that position, > so > If none of us cannot fullfilled to be masters, becaused I am only half of > lifetime of my fathers right now, so I was wondering, if a master is > more one > lifetime to achieved, what about the Grandmasters? This is what I call > non-sense.. I know you are not agreeing with me..Oh well you have the > right on your > own opinion, and I believed I have the right on mind too, am I right? > > Also you are the one who open the subject about "master" and Eskrima in > particular question you asked. Therefore I am talking about Eskrima, not > the > Medieval arts of fencing, you asked for master of Eskrima then you got the > Eskrima > Master answer. > > In your question if I know a complete "master" the answer is Yes, my > father > is more than a master to me he is a Grandmaster. He can teach like you > said one > qualities, he can fight and he is humble, when he is sleeping. Are you > aware > of the tradition of Eskrima, Arnis before talking humbleness? Sometime > ago, I > watched the Grandfather Speak, DVD that Guro Marc Denny gave me. Let me > tell > you, GM Angel Cabales, is challenging other master to fight him, he is > sound > very upset, I dont see that humble way. Its a tradition that we have to > live by. > We as Traditional Eskrimador we challenge other master and grandmaster is > not > necessary to be humble, or else they would declined the challenge. If we > have > to go by the other Masrtial Arts, we cannot be qualified to be called > Masters. So I have to be humble, if I become Master, is that what you are > saying? > Then this not making any sense too. > > In regards of my grammar, I am not an English teacher, and this is not my > first language, but I can get by. Sorry, if you are having difficulties to > understand my post, that make it two of us. I am having difficulties to my > grammar > too. But I am working on it, I believed other understand my point, > that's > enough for me. I dont need to please you or other reader to correct and > edit to > be grammatically correct.. sorry.. If it sound like I am attacking you to > personal, then you have a choice of responding personal too, or ingnores > me like > others do. > > Also on you last post, to us is not necessary to be a good teacher to be a > good fighter, becaused I know a lot of Eskrimadores, that cannot teach, > becaused > they choose not to, but they can give a heck of a fights. I dont agree > with > your post, that the good master has to be a good teacher, not necessary > true in > Master of Eskrima not all of them anyway. > > Hope this post help clarifies my post, > > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet > Garimot Arnis Training Group International > Laguna Arnis Federation International > US Harimaw Buno Federation > Hilot Research Center USA > Tel. 954-432-4433 > www.garimot.com > > > > > ************** > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL > Home. > > (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric- > stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Martial Way To: Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:58:07 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] The Edge Stickfighting Championships is Back!!! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, I just wanted to keep you up to date on our big event coming up on Saturday, May 17th. The Edge Knife & Stick Fighting Championships is our tournament and it is making a come back after a full year off. The Edge has been dishing out Austin's best champions in its only all weapon formatted tournament since 2003. To help bring a come back this year it will be hosted at the Martial Way Academy for the first time ever!!! The Edge has always debuted its action in amazing venues like Stubb's BBQ in the past. After taking a year off to work on renovations the Edge is back this year with a new format and more divisions. This year's event will feature all previous as well as some new divisions to intensify the action. To enhance the action a new format to the judging has been added that will bring the spectators to the edge of their seat even more than before. We are really excited to debut The Edge's new format this year as well as host it in our newly renovated school. This will keep the cost down for the spectators and make it even more of a tournament for the competitors. With more divisions all hosting weapon striking, punching, kicking and grappling it offers something for everyone. Additional Rules, Times and Sponsors will soon be up on a new and improved website. Stay tuned for more information in the next week. For any questions about attending, competing, judging or even sponsoring please contact me back as soon as you can. Mark your calendar and stay tuned for more information! Sincerely, Guro Larry, Heidi and Lauren St. Clair The Always Improving Martial Way Academy American Top Team Trained and Certified MMA Affiliate Martial Arts Training and Fitness Education at its Best www.martialway.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 13:25:30 -0700 (PDT) From: ILDEFONSO ODAL Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Who is a True Master!! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bro. Jorge, I second the motion, It was such a moving definition that it gave me goose bumps. I have to copy it and save to read it again to remind me of a goal that if someday, God willing that I can be as close to what a master can be as "Talibung Antike" describe... Double WOW!!! Jun FFALV www.filipinofightingartsintl.com http://martialartsfriends.com/icodale7 http://communitylink.reviewjournal.com/lvrj/shotokankarate ----- Original Message ---- From: jorge penafiel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 7:36:16 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Who is a True Master!! "Talibung Antike" - Wise and beyond eloquently put to heart your descriptive of an FMA Master. This I can live with and take deep into my inner senses.,,I was so moved by your thoughts regards the relevance of true eskrima in this our present times. WOW !!! Jorge Penafiel _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 13:56:36 -0700 From: Eskrima-FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The truth about arnis, escrima and kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The truth about arnis, escrima and kali Why there is a new respect for Filipino martial arts By Perry Gil S. Mallari, Reporter The Manila Times Arnis, escrima and kali—by whatever name you call it—are recognized the world over to possess the most effective knife fighting techniques on earth. The special forces of various countries train here to learn our deadly arts. But few Filipinos know about Filipino martial arts (FMA). There is no doubt that the deeply ingrained colonial mentality among Filipinos is the foremost reason why arnis, escrima and kali collectively known as the FMA are not enjoying the same popularity as their foreign counterparts like tae kwon do, karate and wushu right in their very own turf. In addition to our veneration of anything foreign, there are other contributing factors that led to this condition. Historically practiced by the maharlikas or noble class, a sort of lowbrow image became attached to the FMA in the modern times. In the early part of the 20th century, the FMA were known as brutal arts associated with plebian types like farmers and stevedores. The stick fighting contests during those times were conducted full contact without the aid of armor and often resulted to the permanent injury or death of the participants. Such deadly matches continued in the farmlands and waterfronts of the Philippines and among the Filipino communities in Hawaii until the 1940s. Another obstacle that stands in the way of the FMA gaining wide acceptance is that it took sometime before a method to teach it en masse was systematized. Originally, the art was taught one-on-one. Though the very personal approach to teaching meant quality instruction, this resulted to a small number of qualified instructors to proliferate the art. Fallacies about the art also pose a problem. One misconception that hinders the attractiveness of the FMA is the notion that it will only work with weapons. Contrary to this belief, arnis, escrima and kali are complete fighting systems that encompass bladed weapons, impact weapons and empty hand techniques. All the FMA principles are transposable regardless if the practitioner is fighting armed or unarmed. It is a good thing to note that a change of view toward the FMA continue to transpire in the past 36 years. The perception toward the FMA began to change after the celebrated Filipino-American martial artist Dan Inosanto showcased the art in Bruce Lee's last film The Game of Death in 1972. Known as Lee's protégé, Inosanto was responsible in introducing the late founder of jeet kune do to escrima—specifically the use of the nunchaku. With an international superstar like Lee picking up the Filipino sticks, the FMA was included in the world map of martial arts. The The Game of Death also became instrumental for Hollywood to notice the cinematic potential of the FMA. Among the most notable movies of recent years that featured the FMA are: Out for Justice starring Steven Seagal in 1991; The Hunted starring Tommy Lee Jones and Benicio del Toro in 2003; and The Bourne Supremacy starring Matt Damon in 2004. And the trend continues. It's now circulating in the grapevine that Golden Globe Best Actor winner Forest Whitaker, an FMA practitioner in real life, will feature his stick fighting ability in his upcoming movie Repossession. Another element that contributed to the FMA gaining global respect is the fact that it's techniques, particularly the knife work were used by military and law enforcement agencies around the world. A good case in point is Paul Vunak, a student of Inosanto who taught Filipino knife techniques to the members of Navy Seal Team 6. Martial artists from other styles also discovered the FMA as a good addition to their base system. Besides the fact that FMA training will provide them weaponry skills, working with weapons like sticks, swords and knives were proven to turbo-blast the development of fighting attributes like power, reflex, speed and coordination. Swinging the heavy fighting stick for instance will develop punching power the same way as an old-school boxers build wallop in their punches by chopping wood with an axe. In the Philippines, the rather boorish view of the FMA is starting to wane as intellectuals and those belonging to the middle class beginning to embrace and espouse the art. Professor Felipe Jocano Jr., a professor of anthropology in the University of the Philippines is an arnis expert and also writes extensively on FMA history. Alvin Aguilar, founder of the Ultimate Reality Combat Championships and perhaps the most well rounded fighter to emerge from the Philippines in recent years is also a proponent of the FMA. Aguilar even devoted a section on the FMA in the martial arts reality TV show Real Pinoy Fighter, which he produced and was aired over ABS-CBN two years ago. Though much has changed on the public's outlook on the FMA, it is safe to surmise that it will never attain the palatability that karate or tae kwon do possesses. Arnis, escrima and kali are originally war arts, hence it explains its emphasis on weaponry and its unique progression of training that starts with weapons and ends with empty hands. Its techniques were refined through the centuries not on the mat or the ring but in actual battlefields. The use of the blade, which is essentially the backbone of the FMA and often constitutes its highest level of practice, needs lethal commitment. Few are those who are willing to go that far. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 13:50:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Master and Grammar To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I dont agree with your post, that the good master has to be a good teacher, not > necessary true in Master of Eskrima not all of them anyway. True they don't have to be a good teacher, but by strict definition of the term they should be a teacher of the art. Hope that helps. Ray --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest