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From eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Thu Mar 27 14:30:59 2008 Return-Path: Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (tarsus.bollow.ch [82.195.230.222]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id m2RJUvS12690 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:30:58 -0500 Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tarsus.bollow.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DC6B28237; Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:32:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:31:00 +0100 Message-ID: <20080327203100.16467.49489.Mailman@tarsus.bollow.ch> From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #85 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Mga Kapatid(brothers)Salamat (GatPuno@aol.com) 2. Re: Re: Moro moro plays as BASIS for most Eskrima (jay de leon) 3. Re: master (maurice gatdula) 4. ESKRIMA Categories (Talibung Antike) 5. Title of DATU (Gabriel rafael) 6. Escrima Schools/Instructors in Raleigh, NC? (Czar Peralta) 7. Master Notes add -on (jorge penafiel) 8. Re: Escrima Schools/Instructors in Raleigh, NC? (Doug) 9. Re: Title of DATU (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:08:17 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Mga Kapatid(brothers)Salamat Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/26/08 3:57:10 PM, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > Kapatid Abon: >    >   Don't worry about the grammar.   We read your posts not to >   learn English (thank goodness) but to learn from your vast >   knowledge and experience in Arnis. >    >   I would take you up on your offer to write in Tagalog instead, >   but then those Filipino guys who went to the well-known >   Universities with their fancy English like Prof. Felipe Jocano >   might need a translator.  >    >   Jay de Leon >   www.tipunan.com >    > Kapatid Jay, Salamat, I know grammar is not an issue to majority of members, besides if it is become an issue, I am sorry don't know if I can meet their expectation. Kapatid Jorge, James Sy, Talibung Antike keep up the good post, I enjoy every single one of them and I learned a lot from them. But I have to give a lot of respect to Mr. Rez by publicly asking for apology, even I thought is not necessary, he show's a good quality of a gentleman. I know he has a good intention and I valued his contribution to the discussion. Mr. Rez, let put this confusion to rest and continues our healthy discussion. I have to admit the "Masters" topic get's hot-er every post. I see more and more member are posting, which is what we as a group are waiting for. To Diana Inosanto and Master Ron Balicki, congratulation to your first film, can wait to watch them, just let us know when it will be available in DVD. Goodluck to your primier day.. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00 030000000001) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:08:37 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Moro moro plays as BASIS for most Eskrima To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Tagalog not Spanish is used for the movements in each dance..." Do you mean the dance movements are Tagalog, as from the Tagalog region, since the Garimot system is from Laguna, with Tagalog music? Presumably then, the dance movements (and music) would be different if the Moro-Moro was in, say, Antique since the dances there would be slightly different from Laguna? By this you also seem to infer that Spanish dances and music are not used in Moro-Moro? Would this be just in Garimot Moro-Moro or in all FMA Moro-Moro? Just for reference purposes, I am attaching a link to an article I wrote about philippine dances. Without even hearing the music, just by looking at the costumes, you can tell which are folk dances, which are ethnic, which are Spanish-inspired, which are muslim, etc. http://www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com/Events/Palawan_singing-dance_troupe.html Thank you. Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com Al Sardinas wrote: Mr. Erwin Harry Vicente Legaspi wrote "I would like to know if any of you have any information regarding the involvement of moro moro/komedya plays in not only preserving the art of eskrima, BUT actually standardizing the curriculum and teaching and training methods of many styles of eskrima (pedagogy). I believe this to be so b/c of various common denominators in 'many' styles of eskrima (not all): 1) the prolific usage of Spanish for an indigenous art, 2) the prolific usage of sticks, particularly arm-length sticks (not staff or spear length as was the primary weapon in pre-Hispanic Philippines), 3) the common 1-5 numbering system, and 4) the artistic references to 'play' and the usage of 'sayaw' or dance as a teaching and training methods. I believe the moro moro play acted as the common denominator for many eskrima styles and seems to be a point worth considering, mainly b/c it is a form of theater that 1) existed since 1630, 2) actively uses eskrima fight choreography (for which the term 'arnis de mano' came actually), and 3) along with the Pasyon, is a form of theater that existed across most of the archipelago - from North to Christian South, and from city to the village alike - Most of the Philippines contained this type of theater and still to this day. Based on my exposure to Filipino Martial Arts, I can not agree that the Moro-Moro play is a common denominator for most FMA systems. The above components may be typical for all FMA systems but not the combat dances (Moro - Moro) in the Garimot System. Tagalog not Spanish is used for the movements in each dance, both sticks and staff or spears are used along with shields and the number of different strikes exceeds 5. You are correct that the Moro-Moro provides a standard curriculum (there are 30 in Garimot) and is still shown in the streets of the Philippines today. Respectfully, Al Sardinas A Student of the Garimot System of Arnis _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:54:59 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: master Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i dont believe to be a master of the art, you have to be good at teaching. but i believe to be considered a master of the art, you have to be good at fighting. what i read from some people about what makes a master, is only in my opinion, what is an expert of the art. just because a guy knows the art, and knows it well, this does not make him a master of the art. the quick way people get "certified" as expert, is the reason we lowered our standard of what we expect. a guy who knows the whole style, but is still young in his development is advanced student. the advance student is pretty much finished with his learning in the class has to get his own experiences through fighting with others, and this is how he develops in the art. this stage, the fighting experice, is where most FMA people skip. and this is what waters down the art. what happens is, the student learned the curriculum, and quickly he is given the test, and a certificate of black belt, and what happens one year later, even less than that---the next day? he is teaching. so, where is this "experience"? experience in learning? come on, this is experience only in how to be a student. the advance level of the art is not what your learning in class, but can only be taught by and opponent, and is guided by your teacher. in this stage of getting your own experience, you learn those things that no teacher can teach you. this is probably the most important part of a student;s learning in the art. he does not have to tell the stories of his teacher, he has his own stories to tell. some people dont have his own experience, he doesnt even have his teachers experience, his teaching nothing more than movement. just because you know how to read a book, does not make you an expert of reading that language. when the advance student got his own career of fighting, and the amount of time is equal or more than the amount of time, that he was in the classroom, and his fighting "career" is pretty much over, he is now, an expert. and you see, he didnt have to be any champion (championship in the martial arts world is almost meaningless), but you do have to know what your talking about, and been there, done that. some people still fight all the way until they are 40, 50 years old or more. that means he probably became expert 20, 30 years ago. example is this: i have some students who been with me since 1999, 2000, 2001. they been fighting in tournaments, round robin, scrimmage in my school and other schools for at least 4 or 5 years. this means, some of these guys have 6 years or more with me. they are not experts in the art. they had more fights in the last 12 months than many "experts" had in their whole life. one fight = many, many classes. now, i have a guy i met who was a new black belter in 1999, who now is teaching. he had a student, who had a student, who got his black belt, who joined my school two years ago. how many years ago is that? 9 years? and three generations? and the third generation is "qualified" to teach? so, what do i think makes a "master"? i dont believe in them. you are a master when other people call you a master. thats it. how can you vouch for another man's fighting if you never saw him fight, and you never fought him yourself. you know what we have in the martial arts world? we have nice guys, guys who scare us, and asshold. nice guy: "oh, he's a GREAT martial artist! excellent technicians, and i know his teacher. well respect!" does that sound like something you read on the internet before? anyway, even if you dont think he can fight, you call him master, hari, taga-pagturo, malaking guro/dakilang guro, or whatever he wants to call himself. heres the guy who scared us: "wow those guys are awesome. i would love to be able to fight him one day. they know what they are doing. great fighters!" if you dont believe that stuff works on you, your never going to say it, or try it out. you call this guy a master, only if he wants to call himself that. heres the asshole: "this guy is a clown. nobody likes him, he's negative, and divider. hes not that good, if he was that good how come we dont see him in UFC or dog brothers. what is he calling his art again?" never mind if this guy can bash your brain, you dont respect him if nobody else does, and you treat him like hes nothing even if this guy is a powerful fighter. most of the time you dont even check him out to see if hes real deal. but the guy you like, you tell everybody to buy his video or pay for his seminar before you make up your mind. huh??? buy a video to see if he can fight? your kidding, kiddo. master should be a proven expert, who spend at least two or three generations doing what he does. but now we have people with less than 20 years in FILIPINO martial arts, and they are FMA "master", so the word is meaningless now. but mastery in the art means, that you have done everyting and proven to yourself and reach your highest point in skill that you can develop in your own life. even if you never teach nobody ever, you are still mastered the art. skill of doing is not the same as skill of teaching. but you must be able to do, if you are going to teach. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 06:57:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] ESKRIMA Categories Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net CATEGORIZING ESKRIMA ARNIS JUGADO This is a recent development in the world of Arnis/Eskrima where it is practiced and promoted as a sportive competition in tournaments participated by practitioners matured and young alike. Rules and guidelines on points, safety and protection are laid down to ensure a certain degree of safety of the participants. Tournament is one of the many ways to develop discipline, sportsmanship and the competitive spirit of the Arnisadors. Promoting Arnis Jugado is one of the most effective ways to propagate, capture and sustain the interest of the young people, and new comers into the world of Arnis. Currently there are two categories in Arnis Jugado: “Labanan” (Combat) and “Anyo” (Forms). If Arnis is to be made popular & acceptable to the majority of the masses in the world from kids, teenagers and young adults alike, this is the kind of Arnis that is very appropriate. It is basically inherent to man to prove that he is better than others and in return gets recognized and rewarded for being so. It is in the venue of controlled environment such as in tournaments that these sense of competition and need of recognition get fed with lesser risks of broken limbs, cracked skulls, cracked clavicles, torn ligaments, dislocated joints, contusions, bruises, wounds and even death that normally go with Traditional Arnis/Eskrima confrontations and duels. ARNIS ENTABLADO This is the kind of Arnis/Eskrima that is inherently practiced for exhibition and to entertain the spectators since Pre-Hispanic times, Hispanic times and our present modern times. Flashy and spectacular moves, techniques and motions are dominant and some even performed with more acrobatic routines, with some degree of exaggeration to make it look more impressive and powerful, formidable, complex and flowery but artistic and entertaining. It can also be in the form of linked forms, dances, pre-arranged choreographed fights and duels conveying a story like “moro-moro”, "komedya" and “zarsuela” in Barrio and Town fiestas. Practitioners in this category need not be very good fighters but must have the basic arnis skills and gift of choreography, artistry and creativity. This kind of Arnis is also a good marketing tool as it is very attractive to the uninitiated. ARNIS/ESKRIMA MATADOR This is the kind of Eskrima for the matadors who want to face the cruel world of survival. It is basically a kind of Eskrima born out of the survival instinct of man. Hence, this category is based on the mindset of “survival” not just reward of trophies and accolades of recognition. It is in this category that most of the Traditional Systems are based. Generally, for serious practitioners it evolves or practiced with other unarmed systems like boxing, grappling, wrestling, kicking, biting and many more making it a complete FMA system. For those who detoured and started off from Arnis Jugado and or Arnis Entablado it is another step and field of growth in the world of Arnis/Eskrima after they get bored and fed up with trophies and medals. Most often, it is these practitioners that evolved from Arnis Entablado and or Arnis Jugado that get mixed up with their techniques and forms, making it less effective in the actual field of combat where the simple rule of victory or defeat is either survival or extinction. Training methodologies here are mostly geared towards honing not only the externals by being able to take hits confidently and delivering lethal strikes effectively, but the objective is also to temper the spirit of the fighter within. Hence, traditionally, pads, armors and head gears are taboos in the practice under this category. Otherwise, if armors are used the practitioner will develop a false sense of security on his abilities, it breeds carelessness and the techniques honed have no real meaning since the air of realism is lost and it may not stand the acid test of actual confrontation where you no longer have protective armors and where life not just a trophy is at stake. ARNIS/ESKRIMA GUERRERO This is supposedly the Eskrima as Martial Arts for theelite warrior class, maharlikas, rajas and chieftains- a rarity ( but very muchalive) in these modern times. Very select few Eskrimadores pursue to elevatetheir growth FMA in this category. Very few in the Philippines in the contextof quantity, since it is not economically viable teaching it as main means oflivelihood in the Philippine Economic setting where volume is necessary to makeit viable. For foreigners it is even ofgreater challenge with the prevailing mindset of the new generation who are alwaysenchanted on anything that are fast. Not fast strikes and moves but fast cars,fast computers, fast courses, fast foods, “fast certificates”, “fast cash” justto name a few. Only a select few are able to access the door of this categorybecause it is definitely not just for everybody. Going through the door andgrowing in this category will require the practitioners to possess extraordinaryinterest, good "martial morality", courage & leadership, strengthof character and of course the unquenchable thirst for excellence. Practicein this category is not just to protect self/person/practitioner but in agreater context-the community and society in general. Most often this hasclosely guarded disciplines, principles, theories and philosophies that requireoral transmissions and elucidations for the entire system to be completelyunderstood and honed to an ever higher level of mastery and perfection. Thearts do not center only in fighting, killing and eliminating the opponents but focus on healing, and life management as well. It may take alifetime to master the different facets in this category and mastery can be alifelong journey but the travel itself is already rewarding. Hopefully, this humble view in the categorization of Eskrima will help all of us Eskrimadores, find our self and understand better the system we are in. Hopefully it will facilitate our understanding of the wide array of differences and diversity of the systems which is said to be more than the number of islands in the Philippine archipelago. And despite the diversity, it is my ardent hope that this brief categorization will help promote harmony, unity, understanding and sense of brotherhood among all Eskrimadores who are bound together by their common love and interest in the perpetuation of Arnis/Eskrima which is centered on the respect of human dignity and love of LIFE itself. MABUHAY... to all of you my brothers and friends in ESKRIMA! GOD Bless us all! “Talibung Antike”,1-0 _____________________________________________________________________________ _______ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 07:40:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Gabriel rafael Subject: [Eskrima] Title of DATU To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings all! There were many opinions given on the titles of Grandmasters and Masters. All of them brought insights on these titles. Can we have opinions/clarification on the title of Datu? Thank you. Gabe ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:04:33 -0700 From: "Czar Peralta" To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Escrima Schools/Instructors in Raleigh, NC? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Anyone know of any schools or instructors in Raleigh, North Carolina, USA? If so, can you please refer me to them? Salamat, Czar Peralta --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "jorge penafiel" To: Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:15:42 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Master Notes add -on Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Indeed, like my pal Al Sardenas says this ED thread regards who/what/etc. a Master is and his attributes had been a great read. Plus, the more simplier our definition is the more the better but then again one is entitled to his thoughts. More importantly, I did learn a lot and may take some of the more noteworthy and attainable view points presented to heart. Anyways, one more for the road and so allow me to have these add-on parting notes to this Master Thread coming back from around my inner memory files. OK? 1) A Master today specially allows himself to "Get out of his Box ". He must be multi-faceted and accepts changes with time/people/trends/innovations/ideals/etc. in the martial arts world. 2). A Master like his complete five fingers if possible must have knowledge of at least five separate focus of the martial arts; i.e., stricking/grappling/weapons/meditation/healing. Remembered one Yoga instructor in our meditation class said that, it is necessary to have our fingers (10) touched each other during meditation so we have our body circuit closed and complete. Sounds Right?? Jorge Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Doug" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Escrima Schools/Instructors in Raleigh, NC? Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:49:04 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm also looking for escrima schools. I'm in Salem, Ohio. There's alist on the web but it's very outdated Thanks - Doug ----- Original Message ----- From: Czar Peralta To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:04 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Escrima Schools/Instructors in Raleigh, NC? Anyone know of any schools or instructors in Raleigh, North Carolina, USA? If so, can you please refer me to them? Salamat, Czar Peralta _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:02:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Lets just say that if you use Datu as a martial arts title in some parts of the RP or in Indonesia you could very well end up in jail. Ray ----- Original Message ---- From: Gabriel rafael To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 7:40:14 AM Subject: [Eskrima] Title of DATU Greetings all! There were many opinions given on the titles of Grandmasters and Masters. All of them brought insights on these titles. Can we have opinions/clarification on the title of Datu? Thank you. Gabe --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest