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From eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Fri Mar 28 09:30:49 2008 Return-Path: Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (tarsus.bollow.ch [82.195.230.222]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id m2SEUmS09763 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:30:48 -0500 Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tarsus.bollow.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E71EB2839E; Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:32:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:31:00 +0100 Message-ID: <20080328153100.20693.35664.Mailman@tarsus.bollow.ch> From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #87 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Title of DATU (jay de leon) 2. Re: Title of DATU (Ray Terry) 3. ESKRIMA Categories (Kristine Strasburger) 4. Re: Title of DATU (jay de leon) 5. Re: Title of DATU (Ray Terry) 6. Re: Re: Moro moro plays as BASIS for most Eskrima (jay de leon) (Al Sardinas) 7. Re: Title of DATU (adam babb) 8. Re: Title of DATU (ILDEFONSO ODAL) 9. Re: Master/Complete Master (Steve Kohn) (Al Sardinas) 10. Re: Escrima Schools/Instructors in Raleigh, NC? (Brian Johns) 11. list down or slow (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:26:00 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Let's explore your point of view on this, Ray. We know that many of the American titles in martial arts that denote some rank (other than teacher) came from various sources, for example: (1) master, grandmaster - came from military institutions like the Knights Templars, etc. (2) professor - came from academe. Kenpo practitioners seem to have a preference for this. Remy Presas somehow ended up this title as well. (3) master-at-arms - probably medieval, military origins. (4) tujon - possibly from "tuan" meaning master (again); may sometimes denote someone with wealth, power and authority. We can say that Remy followed this tradition and "invented" the title or rank of "datu" for his Modern Arnis (in a martial arts context). Why do you think there has been great resistance in the FMA community with using this title, as a martial arts title or rank? Is it mainly for the reason you mention? Jay de Leon www.tipunan.com Ray Terry wrote: Lets just say that if you use Datu as a martial arts title in some parts of the RP or in Indonesia you could very well end up in jail. Ray ----- Original Message ---- From: Gabriel rafael To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 7:40:14 AM Subject: [Eskrima] Title of DATU Greetings all! There were many opinions given on the titles of Grandmasters and Masters. All of them brought insights on these titles. Can we have opinions/clarification on the title of Datu? Thank you. Gabe _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:08:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm not sure how any of that fits with the title Datu, perhaps it does... but my own take on it is given Remy had traveled around a bit before leaving the RP (Yes?), it was more along the lines of the song "A Girl Named Sue". Please, no offense intended. Just if you could use that title and still stay healthy and out of jail you were really something... :) Make up some business cards with your name and that title on them and hand them out in the Sulu region or in Indonesia and see how difficult life becomes. In line with the below, it is perhaps more along the lines of using Pope (some Popes were warriors too) as a martial arts title, but not sure what happens if you put that on a business card... Personally I don't care what titles people invent for themselves or their students. My own instructor invented titles. Just sharing what -might- happen if they're used in certain parts of the world. Ray ----- Original Message ---- From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 7:26:00 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU Let's explore your point of view on this, Ray. We know that many of the American titles in martial arts that denote some rank (other than teacher) came from various sources, for example: (1) master, grandmaster - came from military institutions like the Knights Templars, etc. (2) professor - came from academe. Kenpo practitioners seem to have a preference for this. Remy Presas somehow ended up this title as well. (3) master-at-arms - probably medieval, military origins. (4) tujon - possibly from "tuan" meaning master (again); may sometimes denote someone with wealth, power and authority. We can say that Remy followed this tradition and "invented" the title or rank of "datu" for his Modern Arnis (in a martial arts context). Why do you think there has been great resistance in the FMA community with using this title, as a martial arts title or rank? Is it mainly for the reason you mention? Jay de Leon www.tipunan.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:16:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Kristine Strasburger To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] ESKRIMA Categories Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sir, This post you recently made was an excellent one. Thank you for taking the time to write it. Mabuhay ang Eskrima! Kristine Strasburger www.HeartlandEskrimaSchool.com Message: 4 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 06:57:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] ESKRIMA Categories Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net CATEGORIZING ESKRIMA ARNIS JUGADO This is a recent development in the world of Arnis/Eskrima where it is practiced and promoted as a sportive competition in tournaments participated by practitioners matured and young alike. Rules and guidelines on points, safety and ..... --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:35:37 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net never heard of the Pope of Greenwich Village? also, the song is "A Boy Named Sue." If Sue was a girl, there would be no fights. seriously, i thought that remy wanted to reward his datus, not get them in fights or jail. i see your point, though. Jay Ray Terry wrote: I'm not sure how any of that fits with the title Datu, perhaps it does... but my own take on it is given Remy had traveled around a bit before leaving the RP (Yes?), it was more along the lines of the song "A Girl Named Sue". Please, no offense intended. Just if you could use that title and still stay healthy and out of jail you were really something... :) Make up some business cards with your name and that title on them and hand them out in the Sulu region or in Indonesia and see how difficult life becomes. In line with the below, it is perhaps more along the lines of using Pope (some Popes were warriors too) as a martial arts title, but not sure what happens if you put that on a business card... Personally I don't care what titles people invent for themselves or their students. My own instructor invented titles. Just sharing what -might- happen if they're used in certain parts of the world. Ray ----- Original Message ---- From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 7:26:00 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU Let's explore your point of view on this, Ray. We know that many of the American titles in martial arts that denote some rank (other than teacher) came from various sources, for example: (1) master, grandmaster - came from military institutions like the Knights Templars, etc. (2) professor - came from academe. Kenpo practitioners seem to have a preference for this. Remy Presas somehow ended up this title as well. (3) master-at-arms - probably medieval, military origins. (4) tujon - possibly from "tuan" meaning master (again); may sometimes denote someone with wealth, power and authority. We can say that Remy followed this tradition and "invented" the title or rank of "datu" for his Modern Arnis (in a martial arts context). Why do you think there has been great resistance in the FMA community with using this title, as a martial arts title or rank? Is it mainly for the reason you mention? Jay de Leon www.tipunan.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:50:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > never heard of the Pope of Greenwich Village? Yep. A great martial arts movie! :) And yes, Boy, not Girl... I always get those mixed up... Not! Ray ----- Original Message ---- From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:35:37 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU never heard of the Pope of Greenwich Village? also, the song is "A Boy Named Sue." If Sue was a girl, there would be no fights. seriously, i thought that remy wanted to reward his datus, not get them in fights or jail. i see your point, though. Jay --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Al Sardinas" To: Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:14:17 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Re: Moro moro plays as BASIS for most Eskrima (jay de leon) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Jay, I visited http://www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com/Events/Palawan_singing-dance_troupe.html for the purpose of educating myself so that I may provide you with good answers to your questions. It was a good thing I visted the page at night and I was pressed for time because at the beginning of the page there is was a link for Cebuanas.com which I admit distracted me from my purpose for a minute (I only looked at one page, saw the pictures of some beautiful looking Filipinas) and read your good article and skimmed the pictures. In my opinion, only one picture looked like Moro - Moro with the dancers holding their weapons in the air. In the Garimot system, the combatants execute their strikes much closer with specific targets. Getting back to your questions, here is my answer that I think will answer all your questions - I am not familiar with all FMA Moro-Moro and have only seen it performed in the Garimot System. However, I have seen pictures of Moro- Moro being performed in Laguna which was not Garimot. Referring back to system I learned, the movements which are all strikes with exception of two all have Tagalog names. Spanish is not used and I hope this clarifies what you quoted me. Respectfully, Al Sardinas A Student of the Garimot System of Arnis >> Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:08:37 -0700 (PDT) > From: jay de leon > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Moro moro plays as BASIS for most Eskrima > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > "Tagalog not Spanish is used for the movements in each dance..." > > Do you mean the dance movements are Tagalog, as from the Tagalog > region, since the Garimot system is from Laguna, with Tagalog music? > Presumably then, the dance movements (and music) would be different > if the Moro-Moro was in, say, Antique since the dances there would be > slightly different from Laguna? > > By this you also seem to infer that Spanish dances and music are not > used in Moro-Moro? Would this be just in Garimot Moro-Moro or in all > FMA Moro-Moro? > > Just for reference purposes, I am attaching a link to an article I wrote > about philippine dances. Without even hearing the music, just by > looking at the costumes, you can tell which are folk dances, which > are ethnic, which are Spanish-inspired, which are muslim, etc. > > > http://www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com/Events/Palawan_singing-dance_troupe.html > > Thank you. > > Jay de Leon > www.filipinofightingartsintl.com > > Respectfully, > Al Sardinas > A Student of the Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:55:27 -0700 (PDT) From: adam babb Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net boy named sue is a good song adam --- Ray Terry wrote: > > never heard of the Pope of Greenwich Village? > > Yep. A great martial arts movie! :) > > And yes, Boy, not Girl... I always get those mixed > up... Not! > > Ray > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: jay de leon > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:35:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU > > never heard of the Pope of Greenwich Village? > > also, the song is "A Boy Named Sue." If Sue was a > girl, > there would be no fights. > > seriously, i thought that remy wanted to reward > his datus, > not get them in fights or jail. > > i see your point, though. > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:23:12 -0700 (PDT) From: ILDEFONSO ODAL Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Let me take a stab at this... my wild guess is... Datu is same as Rajah = King or Prince correct me if I'm wrong please... Just for laugh: Datu as in "Datung Puti" and sukang "mukhasim":-) Jun FFALV www.filipinofightingartsintl.com http://martialartsfriends.com/icodale7 http://communitylink.reviewjournal.com/lvrj/shotokankarate ----- Original Message ---- From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 12:02:27 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU Lets just say that if you use Datu as a martial arts title in some parts of the RP or in Indonesia you could very well end up in jail. Ray ----- Original Message ---- From: Gabriel rafael To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 7:40:14 AM Subject: [Eskrima] Title of DATU Greetings all! There were many opinions given on the titles of Grandmasters and Masters. All of them brought insights on these titles. Can we have opinions/clarification on the title of Datu? Thank you. Gabe _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Al Sardinas" To: Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:14:10 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Master/Complete Master (Steve Kohn) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve, First of all it is an honor to be called your buddy. Continuing on my mission to keep it simple, I will use your background as food for thought. If I recall correctly you are a musician. Is it possible for a great musician to play an instrument that has been mastered, any type of music by having the notes available or just by playing by ear? If there is no possibility then you are right. Otherwise, I know you would hesitate to admit it that I am right. To bring some buoyancy to this subject I like to recommend a movie to see - The Tai Chi Master starring Jacky Wu. One of my favorites and it has part similar to the Game of Death" where Mr. Wu battles different systems. He would be a comple master according to my definition. Also, on the subject of movies Mr. Wu plays the villan in the movie Kill Zone which stars Donnie Yen. In my opinion this movie has the best use of a collapsible baton I ever seen in a movie. Tuhon McGrath if you still read ED, you will not be dissappointed with these movies. Respectfully, Al Sardinas A Student of the Garimot System of Arnis > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:12:14 -0700 (PDT) > From: Steve Kohn > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Master/Complete Master > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > **On the subject of Complete Master, my definition is simple: a master > who can > easily adapt and overcome any situation regardless of what martial art > system or style > is a complete master. > > Respectfully, > Al Sardinas > A Student of the Garimot System of Arnis** > > > AL!! My Buddy!!, > > By your defintion of a master, there is almost no probability of any > alleged master actually being a master. You'd have to be an immortal to > pull that one off based on your criteria. One lifetime just isnt enough. > > Best, > So NOT a Master Steve Kohn --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:43:47 -0400 From: "Brian Johns" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Escrima Schools/Instructors in Raleigh, NC? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Daniel is correct; check out David's school at www.kungfuarnis.com Another arnisador that I have tremendous respect for is Roland Rivera, who teaches at David's school. Both practice Modern Arnis and are highly accomplished martial artists. Take care, Brian Johns > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:17:14 -0700 (PDT) > From: Daniel Arola > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Escrima Schools/Instructors in Raleigh, NC? > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > One name I know of in the Raleigh/Durhamn area is a one David Ng that is a > Modern Arnis practitioner. I don't really know anything else on him, but I > remember hearing the name when I lived in Fayetteville NC a few years ago. > > Good luck! > > Daniel Arola > > Doug wrote: I'm also looking for escrima schools. I'm in > Salem, Ohio. There's alist on > the web but it's very outdated > Thanks - Doug > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Czar Peralta > To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:04 PM > Subject: [Eskrima] Escrima Schools/Instructors in Raleigh, NC? > > > Anyone know of any schools or instructors in Raleigh, North Carolina, USA? > If so, can you please refer me to them? > > Salamat, > > Czar Peralta --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:22:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Terry To: eskrima digest Subject: [Eskrima] list down or slow Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Starting tomorrow Eskrima/FMA digest will be down or very slow. I'm headingback to Illinois to visit friends, family and teach a seminar. Hopefully things will back to normal by Tuesday. Ray P.S. Sorry Al... :) --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest