Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:55:03 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #93 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2500 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Title of DATU (jay de leon) 2. Re: Title of DATU (Ray Terry) 3. Datu/Title/Gatpuno/Hari (gatpuno@aol.com) 4. Re: Title of DATU (Felipe Jocano) 5. Re: Title of DATU (Felipe Jocano) 6. Re: Datu/Title/Gatpuno/Hari (Andrew Maddox) 7. Re: Title of Datu (Rich Acosta) 8. Re: Re: Title of Datu (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 16:38:56 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net where have you been? i believe ray terry has already laid claim to that one. Tom Howanic wrote: I agree that the "Title" issue is not unique to the FMA. There is a well known Korean martial artists that is calling himself the "Eternal Grand Master!" Google it. What's next? "Grand Puuba Eternal Super-duper Grand Master Blaster Master." tom _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 17:40:48 -0700 From: "Ray Terry" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Pretty much... GP Ray On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 4:38 PM, jay de leon wrote: > where have you been? i believe ray terry > has already laid claim to that one. --__--__-- Message: 3 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:03:07 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Datu/Title/Gatpuno/Hari Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Kapatid Jay de Leon wrote: for example, i like the title "gatpuno." it is so historical, ethnic, particularly descriptive and evocative of those olden times. i wish i could be a gatpuno, lol. remember mayor villegas of manila? i believe he even preferred the title gatpuno to mayor. another jaw-dropping arnis title is "hari" which can literally mean king. but it has supposedly roots to the olden times of arnis, when you had to earn it by combat. by all means, if you have earned it and can defend it, use it. when you lose me is when you start supersizing titles. i always thought that grandmaster was about as high as you could get--until i saw supersized titles like "extra- strength" grandmaster (example only, so as not to have to mention a specific title, lol). I was waiting for someone in this list to question my title as "Gat Puno" glad that Kapatid Jay de Leon gave me a perfect chance to give few thought about titles. I am hesitant to talk about "Datu" title since I respect Professor Remy A Presas as father. So I asked Professor on 1993, during his stay here in Florida for few weeks, this is the first time I meet Bram and see other. On Professor defend, he said whoever he promoted "Datu" he is confident that themselves can carry the title as a fighter and a good leader. Because he believed that his student whom acquired the "Titles" already proved themselves to be worth giving that title. He said all of them is accomplished fighter and a great leader with their own right. So I leave that title alone, since I heard it direct from Professor's mouth himself. In regards of Gat Puno title, it was used by "Local" Chieftain of Luzon, in Laguna province and other part of the island, when the Spanish came they found that the "Laguna"  was already ruled by Gat {Chieftain} , some name was Gat Panguil, Gat Malangsangan, Gat Salacab, Gat Sugayan, and Gat Pulintan. Remember our Philippine National hero himself used the title since he is a good leader/Eskrimador, fencer, Doctor, etc. and importantly he is born and raised in "Laguna" he is Gat Jose P.Rizal.    What a co-incidence, Mayor Villegas, is a brother of Colonel Arthuro Villegas, hail from Siniloan, Laguna and first cousin of my mother Marcelina Villegas Salazar. And yes he love to used the title "Gatpuno" to give respect to where he came from. Few Mayor of Laguna used this title instead of Mayor, the Mayor of Pakil, Laguna Gatpuno Pedro San Juan, Gatpuno Raul de Roma and more.  As my title, this title was suggested for me to used by "Maestro of Paete", showing Laguna identity and pride of Paete at the same time it fall to the name of my Organization (GAT) Garimot Arnis Training and Puno (head), just simply showing I am the head of the Garimot Arnis Training Group International. As the Gat Puno of Laguna Arnis Federation International too. But I have to admit, I was thankful that the name was suggested for me to used by Paete Maestros.  In regards of "Hari" (King), my father Felipe "Garimot" Baet was crowned "Hari ng Pitong Kabundukan" (King of the Seven Provinces), undefeated Fighter and Stylist from 1950-1987. He is also crown "Hari" in Moro-moro Play in Paete Laguna. But I never heard anyone call him that title, everyone know's he is the "Hari" he remain D' Maestro Peping "Garimot" Baet to all Eskrimadores of (1)Laguna, (2)Quezon, (3)Rizal, (4)Cavite, (5)Batangas,(6) Bataan, (7) Mindoro till the day that he died. Kapatid Jay, the next time I got a chance to go and visit you in California, I promised to cook for you and your guest. I am hoping this title can settle it down, and let go back to more fruit-full discussion of our arts (Arnis, Eskrima and Estokada now is also Kali)..Let the3 title users enjoy their title, its only title, no mean nothing actually..  Salamat, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International Garimot Arnis Training Group International Harimaw Buno Federation US Hilot Research Center USA www.garimot.com    --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 18:43:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Manong Jay, thank you for the kind words :-) I seem to remember reading somewhere GM Presas' ranking system and there on the list was the rank of datu. I do know he had a rationale for using that as an indicator of rank, I've forgotten what it was though :-( as for hari - hmm, there's a song popular a few years ago titled Hari ng Sablay - King of Mishaps. Kinda like Master of Disaster! :-) that would be nice - I can refer to my club as a kingdom :-) sounds like a line from an old Tagalog film "Ako ang hari ditohhhh!" (I'm the king here!!!!) now I'm dreaming, have to get back to checking my students' papers :-) If anyone remembers some old articles of Shirotatsu Nakamichi from Inside Karate (Pretty Rank; Still Pretty Rank), he had some suggestions like DOctor of real Killing (DOrK) ;-P drat it I forgot the others, must be all those sticks to the head.... Still you raised an important point - if someone claims rank, they better be prepared to back it up.... adobo, adobo ... early lunch .... mmmmm :-) Bot --- jay de leon wrote: > hi neil: > > thanks for your input. > > i agree with you, bot is as scholarly, articulate > and > knowledgeable as they come. we are lucky to have > listmembers like him and others, without naming > names > so i don't forget somebody and put my mouth in my > foot > again. > > just some quick thoughts (not meant to incite). > > (1) i don't think the use, overuse or abuse of > titles is unique > to FMA. it exists in varying degrees in other > martial arts. > i remember one time i was acting as emcee for a > martial > arts (not FMA) event. extemporaneously, i was > introducing > guests. i was introducing the next guest who was > standing > next to me. i introduced him as "master." he > sidled closer > to me and whispered in my ear, "it's grandmaster." > > (2) regarding the datu issue, don't forget it was > remy presas > himself who "invented" and conferred these titles, > in his own > system of "Modern Arnis." Now i believe other FMA > systems or individuals use this title. i am not > sure if they > are following remy's lead or just like the title. > > (3) on a personal basis, i like titles in FMA and > don't really > care or mind what FMA systems use or even > "invent." There > are some titles i really like. it adds to the > "ambiance" of FMA. > > for example, i like the title "gatpuno." it is so > historical, > ethnic, particularly descriptive and evocative of > those olden > times. i wish i could be a gatpuno, lol. > remember mayor > villegas of manila? i believe he even preferred > the title > gatpuno to mayor. > > another jaw-dropping arnis title is "hari" which > can > literally mean king. but it has supposedly roots > to > the olden times of arnis, when you had to earn it > by > combat. by all means, if you have earned it and > can > defend it, use it. > > when you lose me is when you start supersizing > titles. > i always thought that grandmaster was about as > high as > you could get--until i saw supersized titles like > "extra- > strength" grandmaster (example only, so as not to > have to mention a specific title, lol). > > finally, you have just made me hungry now just by > mentioning adobo is your adobo any good? where > do you live? > > jay de leon > www.filipinofightingartsintl.com > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 18:31:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Tom, I think that term was used by the students of the said GM when he passed away. In other words, it was a posthumous title, indicating he had passed into eternity. Unless you're talking about somebody else, in which case I have symptoms of foot-in-mouth disease :-) Bot --- Tom Howanic wrote: > I agree that the "Title" issue is not unique to the > FMA. There is a well > known Korean martial artists that is calling himself > the "Eternal Grand > Master!" Google it. What's next? "Grand Puuba > Eternal Super-duper Grand > Master Blaster Master." > > tom > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 02:56:06 +0000 (UTC) From: Andrew Maddox To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Datu/Title/Gatpuno/Hari Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, gatpuno@aol.com wrote: Lots of good stuff, including this: >  In regards of "Hari" (King), my father Felipe "Garimot" Baet was crowned > "Hari ng Pitong Kabundukan" (King of the Seven Provinces), undefeated Fighter > and Stylist from 1950-1987. > (1)Laguna, (2)Quezon, (3)Rizal, (4)Cavite, (5)Batangas,(6) Bataan, (7) Mindoro > till the day that he died. 37 years? Wow. That is, to put it mildly, impressive. Mabuhay! My 5 lira's worth? I like places where the titles are simple, like "student" and "teacher." Or "training partners" and "today's training leader" ;-) Maybe there's a reason or two that I don't do this as more than a student, and part time. -- Andrew Maddox, madsox2k at freeshell dot org Practitioner of Unaffiliated Martial Arts But really just, like, this guy, y'know? --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Rich Acosta" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:15:00 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Title of Datu Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I agree with Guro Jay Deleon on this issue. My system, Kuntaw Kali Kruzada, has adopted the use of the title, "Datu", due to the influence that IMAFP Modern Arnis has had on our system. While I understand the arguments against the use of this title, that have been presented by other members of this digest, I for one am proud to hold the title of Datu. I didn't request, or invent this title for myself, it was given to me in much the same way that GM Remy awarded this title to those in his group who he felt demonstrated certain qualities. It is a part of the hierarchy of my system, as it is also a part of the hierarchy of IMAFP Modern Arnis. I proudly, and unapologetically support its use as a title in the FMA, but regardless of my opinion, or the opinion of certain members of this digest, this title will still continue to exist in association with the FMA. There are may different definitions regarding the title of Datu. Not all Filipino tribes or clans use it the same way, or have the same restrictions regarding its use. The definition of the title of Datu outside of the Philippines and the legal implications associated with it in other nations does not bear on its use in the Philippines as we are a sovereign nation, and therefore has no merit in this discussion. In my system the title of Datu means "Chief or caretaker of the teachings handed down from generation to generation", specifically regarding the Filipino martial arts. Which is similar to it's use in the pre-hispanic Higaonan Tribal Nation comprised of different river clans, where there were multiple Datus who's respective responsibilities involved a range of duties such as agriculture, hunting, defense, finance, prayer and even record keeping. If a record keeper can legitimately hold the title of Datu, I can't see where anyone would argue that an exceptional exponent of the FMA couldn't also be appointed the same title. Given the fact there has never been a standard practice enforced among the various existing and/or pre-hispanic Filipino clans and tribes, regarding the use of the title of Datu, no one has the right to attempt to regulate its use within the FMA community. Contrary to popular belief, not all of the Modern Arnis Datus, promoted by GM Remy Presas, are caucasian. Two of these Datus are native born Filipinos. One of these esteemed individuals is Datu Shishir Inocalla (the first appointed Datu in the 1980s) and the other is Datu Ric "Bong" Jornales. As many of you know the other Modern Arnis Datus are Datu Kelly S. Worden, Datu Dieter Knüttel, Datu Timothy J. Hartman and Datu David Hoffman. All of these individuals have collectively done more to propagate the FMA than most Grandmasters have, and I'm sure that none of them would give up their title to appease the naysayers on this or any other public forum. Just one Datu's opinion. Regards, Datu Rich Acosta Chief Instructor Kuntaw Kali Kruzada www.kuntawkali.com ----- Original Message ----- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:30:51 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon < jakkdawg@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hi neil: thanks for your input. i agree with you, bot is as scholarly, articulate and knowledgeable as they come. we are lucky to have listmembers like him and others, without naming names so i don't forget somebody and put my mouth in my foot again. just some quick thoughts (not meant to incite). (1) i don't think the use, overuse or abuse of titles is unique to FMA. it exists in varying degrees in other martial arts. i remember one time i was acting as emcee for a martial arts (not FMA) event. extemporaneously, i was introducing guests. i was introducing the next guest who was standing next to me. i introduced him as "master." he sidled closer to me and whispered in my ear, "it's grandmaster." (2) regarding the datu issue, don't forget it was remy presas himself who "invented" and conferred these titles, in his own system of "Modern Arnis." Now i believe other FMA systems or individuals use this title. i am not sure if they are following remy's lead or just like the title. (3) on a personal basis, i like titles in FMA and don't really care or mind what FMA systems use or even "invent." There are some titles i really like. it adds to the "ambiance" of FMA. for example, i like the title "gatpuno." it is so historical, ethnic, particularly descriptive and evocative of those olden times. i wish i could be a gatpuno, lol. remember mayor villegas of manila? i believe he even preferred the title gatpuno to mayor. another jaw-dropping arnis title is "hari" which can literally mean king. but it has supposedly roots to the olden times of arnis, when you had to earn it by combat. by all means, if you have earned it and can defend it, use it. when you lose me is when you start supersizing titles. i always thought that grandmaster was about as high as you could get--until i saw supersized titles like "extra- strength" grandmaster (example only, so as not to have to mention a specific title, lol). finally, you have just made me hungry now just by mentioning adobo is your adobo any good? where do you live? jay de leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:47:18 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Title of Datu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I hereby attest to the fact that Datu Rich Acosta as well as his brother Maestro Rico Acosta are part of the International Modern Arnis Federation of the Phil (IMAFP) family (technically associates). Like many family members of IMAFP, they have forged their own FMA identity but fully support and participate in IMAFP activities, like the FMA Festival in the Philippines. Other associates include Dan Anderson, Bram Frank, Alex Ercia, Datu Dieter Knuettel and others. Datu Shishir Inocalla and Datu Ric "Bong" Jornales maintain cordial relationships with IMAFP and myself, and remain friends to many of the IMAFP masters in the Phil. My kapatid Alex Ercia and myself have joked about this, but as dysfunctional as we may be, we are still family. Jay de Leon www.tipunan.com Commissioner for North America, IMAFP Rich Acosta wrote: I agree with Guro Jay Deleon on this issue. My system, Kuntaw Kali Kruzada, has adopted the use of the title, "Datu", due to the influence that IMAFP Modern Arnis has had on our system. While I understand the arguments against the use of this title, that have been presented by other members of this digest, I for one am proud to hold the title of Datu. I didn't request, or invent this title for myself, it was given to me in much the same way that GM Remy awarded this title to those in his group who he felt demonstrated certain qualities. It is a part of the hierarchy of my system, as it is also a part of the hierarchy of IMAFP Modern Arnis. I proudly, and unapologetically support its use as a title in the FMA, but regardless of my opinion, or the opinion of certain members of this digest, this title will still continue to exist in association with the FMA. There are may different definitions regarding the title of Datu. Not all Filipino tribes or clans use it the same way, or have the same restrictions regarding its use. The definition of the title of Datu outside of the Philippines and the legal implications associated with it in other nations does not bear on its use in the Philippines as we are a sovereign nation, and therefore has no merit in this discussion. In my system the title of Datu means "Chief or caretaker of the teachings handed down from generation to generation", specifically regarding the Filipino martial arts. Which is similar to it's use in the pre-hispanic Higaonan Tribal Nation comprised of different river clans, where there were multiple Datus who's respective responsibilities involved a range of duties such as agriculture, hunting, defense, finance, prayer and even record keeping. If a record keeper can legitimately hold the title of Datu, I can't see where anyone would argue that an exceptional exponent of the FMA couldn't also be appointed the same title. Given the fact there has never been a standard practice enforced among the various existing and/or pre-hispanic Filipino clans and tribes, regarding the use of the title of Datu, no one has the right to attempt to regulate its use within the FMA community. Contrary to popular belief, not all of the Modern Arnis Datus, promoted by GM Remy Presas, are caucasian. Two of these Datus are native born Filipinos. One of these esteemed individuals is Datu Shishir Inocalla (the first appointed Datu in the 1980s) and the other is Datu Ric "Bong" Jornales. As many of you know the other Modern Arnis Datus are Datu Kelly S. Worden, Datu Dieter Knüttel, Datu Timothy J. Hartman and Datu David Hoffman. All of these individuals have collectively done more to propagate the FMA than most Grandmasters have, and I'm sure that none of them would give up their title to appease the naysayers on this or any other public forum. Just one Datu's opinion. Regards, Datu Rich Acosta Chief Instructor Kuntaw Kali Kruzada www.kuntawkali.com ----- Original Message ----- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:30:51 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon < jakkdawg@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title of DATU To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hi neil: thanks for your input. i agree with you, bot is as scholarly, articulate and knowledgeable as they come. we are lucky to have listmembers like him and others, without naming names so i don't forget somebody and put my mouth in my foot again. just some quick thoughts (not meant to incite). (1) i don't think the use, overuse or abuse of titles is unique to FMA. it exists in varying degrees in other martial arts. i remember one time i was acting as emcee for a martial arts (not FMA) event. extemporaneously, i was introducing guests. i was introducing the next guest who was standing next to me. i introduced him as "master." he sidled closer to me and whispered in my ear, "it's grandmaster." (2) regarding the datu issue, don't forget it was remy presas himself who "invented" and conferred these titles, in his own system of "Modern Arnis." Now i believe other FMA systems or individuals use this title. i am not sure if they are following remy's lead or just like the title. (3) on a personal basis, i like titles in FMA and don't really care or mind what FMA systems use or even "invent." There are some titles i really like. it adds to the "ambiance" of FMA. for example, i like the title "gatpuno." it is so historical, ethnic, particularly descriptive and evocative of those olden times. i wish i could be a gatpuno, lol. remember mayor villegas of manila? i believe he even preferred the title gatpuno to mayor. another jaw-dropping arnis title is "hari" which can literally mean king. but it has supposedly roots to the olden times of arnis, when you had to earn it by combat. by all means, if you have earned it and can defend it, use it. when you lose me is when you start supersizing titles. i always thought that grandmaster was about as high as you could get--until i saw supersized titles like "extra- strength" grandmaster (example only, so as not to have to mention a specific title, lol). finally, you have just made me hungry now just by mentioning adobo is your adobo any good? where do you live? jay de leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest