Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 02:48:21 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #129 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: re: Cabales Serrada Escrima (Tom Howanic) 2. Re: taking away another mans rank (maurice gatdula) 3. Cabales Serrada Escrima (Guro Dennis Servaes) 4. Article Submission: Bokator Vs. Muay Thai Boran (MartialArtsResource) 5. Re: Cabales Serrada Escrima (Tom Howanic) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Tom Howanic" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] re: Cabales Serrada Escrima Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 17:34:13 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mike. There are two sides to every story. One should thoroughly investigate a matter before making a judgement. Getting the facts straight is important before the mud-slinging begins. I know this instructor you are talking about. He has not bad-mouthed this other master or the people under him in any way. (This instructor does not claim to teach the previous art he was certified in.) Can the same be said of them? Who is more mature? Envy and jealousy are not traits of a true martial artist or a true warrior for that matter. Be careful. Your perception of what happened may be flawed due to a misrepresentation of the events. Finally, when you "denounce" someone publically you may be on very shaky ground leagally...especially if what is being said is false. If you have a problem with this instructor you should contact this instructor directly. I hate martial arts politics. Leave sleeping dogs alone. tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael s" To: Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 2:55 AM Subject: [Eskrima] re: Cabales Serrada Escrima > Fellow FMA enthusiasts, > > The publication in the Bedford Times Registar, > regarding the Serrada Escrima Seminar with GM D, is a > promotion for a World Serrada Escrima Federation > seminar. > > Also taking part in this event will be Punong Guro > Tony Marcial of Marcial Tirada Kali > > The definition of serrada published in the paper was > an obvious misprint. > > I do have a question for the forum unrelated to the > discussion points metioned above. > > I've recently learned that someone I once knew > personally many years ago has had rank taken away due > to misconduct & less than honorable practices within > the martial arts community. The individual is an > accomplished martial arts instructor in a number of > arts. However, by not representing his instructor as > he had been told & by not giving the true > representation of the art as instructed to do, the > Master was betrayed. Master X then removed this > person's instructorship in the art and has officially > denounced this person publicly. > > Would we continue to recognize this instructor as an > honorable representative of his other arts which he is > also accomplished in? Would we question his further > ethics & instruction? > > Guro Mike > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 17:04:23 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: taking away another mans rank Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net excuse me, but you cannot take away another man's rank in the martial arts. this idea is very arrogant of a person, and very foolish idea. your level of skill the filipino arts is determine by your ability and your dedication, and even though it comes from your teacher, no one owns it like no one owns your life. you can thank a man for any help he give to you, but you do not owe him anything the only one you owe anything to is the God who breathes into your lungs every morning you wake up. when a teacher tries to take away what he has no right to take away, i see many weak things in this teacher. skill, is not like a drivers license that you can lose if you dont pay your fee. and yes, i know probably it is my beloved filipino masters who created this foolish idea, to make rank like a drivers license, it is still WRONG. whether you know it or not, if the man you are talking about has skill, you already respected his rank whether you like him or not....this is when you do not tell him to his face his skill is crap (if you do not tell him to his face, then you respect him). my thinking, is that even the teacher you speak about respect his rank (even though he thinks he can take it away) anyway. why do i say this? because you "demote" a teacher when you cannot kick his ass. can do it with your hands, so you do it on paper. its everywhere, the men with the most skill, never show there paper. the men with the weakest skill, puts his paper and credentials all over the internet, and he is always chasing more to fill in the hole in his chest. dont worry (i forgot who posted the question, mike s?) your friend did not lost respect or rank even, but his teacher did. now, a school can disown a bad teacher or bad students, the same way you fire a bad worker or divorce a women. you can say, this man does not represent us. but if you give rank and show praise to a man, then later say, he is shit, what does this say about you? that is a bad practice, and bad for business. the martial arts is like a family, people earn, they dont buy. when they earn--really earn--you dont make mistakes. but when you let them buy (you wont sell your daughter would you?), you always end up trying to take it back. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 18:24:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Guro Dennis Servaes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Cabales Serrada Escrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I wonder where this gossip comes from? The Cabales Serrada Escrima Academy is a tough group, and that is the only place to earn a Master's Degree in Serrada, so I wonder who you are talking about. I started there in 1992, so do you know something I don't? Dennis --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 08:06:34 -0700 From: MartialArtsResource To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Article Submission: Bokator Vs. Muay Thai Boran Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bokator Vs. Muay Thai Boran By Antonio Graceffo What is Bokator: Bokator is the ancient Cambodian martial art, which was nearly whipped out duringt the Khmer Rouge genocide. Through the sacrifices of Grand Master San Kim Saen, the art was reborn. After surviving the horrors of the Khmer Rouge regime, he returned to Cambodia in the late 1990s. Scouring the country, he found less than ten Bokator masters who had survived. He later opened his school in Phnom Penh, where he teaches Bokator to about three hundred students. Several have been promoted to black karma (belt). Derek Morris and I are the only foreigners to have earned a black karma. Mine is in fighting only, Derek's belt and certificate make him an instructor. The Grand Master hopes that a foreigner will open a Bokator school outside of Cambodia, so that the art will spread and survive. Unfortunately, I don't accept students. After training in Muay Thai Sangha, with Kru Pedor Villalobos, Derek went to China to learn San Da (Chinese Kickboxing). What is Muay Thai Boran: Boran means ancient. It is actually a Khmer word which was absorbed into the Thai language. Long ago, Thailand raided Cambodia, capturing masters of various arts, from religion, to dance, to martial arts. Khmer words and culture were adopted into Thai culture. Today, in Thai language, all words associated with religion, royalty, martial arts, science, and government come from Khmer. The Khmer claim that they invented kickboxing. The original Khmer kickboxing art is called Bradal Serey (Pradal Serey) and Khmers claim that it was stolen by Thailand and later dubbed Muay Thai. The masters I interviewed in Lao agreed with this theory. Some masters in Thailand agreed. Others essentially said that all of the countries of southeast Asia had a system of martial arts and they probably borrowed and stole form each other, developing along very similar lines. Today, Muay Lao, Muay Thai, Bradal Serey, and Burmese boxing (Lethwei or Lethawae) are quite similar. The cultures of these countries are also quite similar, with the people following Theravada Buddhism, which originated in India and then Sri Lanka and Cambodia. Ancient Khmer is the written language of the ancient scriptures of all of these countries. Neighboring Vietnam is always the odd-man-out. The culture is Chinese. The written language was Chinese, until the French forced them to use the Latin alphabet. And the predominant ancient martial art, Tieu Lam, is a form of Chinese Kung Fu. There are rumors that Vietnam once had a kickboxing art similar to Cambodia. Today, this art seems to have disappeared, but even in Tieu Lam, we see some elements taken from kick boxing, such as shin kicks and elbow strikes. The point here is that the fighting arts of all of the Indochina countries are quite similar, and clearly come from the same origin. In Thailand, however, martial art developed into a massive professional sport. Kickboxing is also the national sport of Cambodia, but there are less than 400 registered boxers. In Thailand there are close to 100,000. Muay Thai Boran is a word which is often given to the original, military fighting art, which was later watered down into a sport art, used in a kickboxing ring. What is the difference between Bokator and Muay Thai Boran? Muay Thai Boran ad Bokator clearly share a lot of similarities, but one primary difference is that Bokator is a system. Muay Thai Boran is not. You study Muay Thai, and if your teacher knows Boran, he teaches you some movements in isolation. For example, he advocates kicking with the bottom or side of your foot, instead of just shin kicks. Or, he teaches you spinning back kicks or heal kicks, instead of just roundhouse. Muay Thai Boran and Krabi Krabong get lumped together. Karbi Krabong is the weapons training:just staff and doubles swords. If you see Thai practitioners using double sticks, the sticks represent swords. There is, to my knowledge, no Thai double stick art like Arnis in the Philippines. Bokator, on the other hand, is a complete system, like a traditional martial arts. There are belts, and you learn movements, forms, and techniques in order. The weapons include the double stick, double swords, long staff and scarf. While Muay Thai Boran includes a bit more grappling than sport Muay Thai, it is still stand up grappling from the head. And you are wearing gloves. Bokator includes Khmer traditional wrestling (jap bap boran khmer), kick boxing (bradal serey or pradal serey), and weapons. In true Bokator fights, you don't wear gloves and you can fight on the ground, with bouts ending in submissions or chokes. The ground fighting is not nearly as effective as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or western wrestling, but it is arguably the only ground fighting art in southeast Asia. I have trained in nearly every country in southeast Asia (except Malaysia, Indonesia and Brunai) and there doesn't seem to be any ground fighting at all. At this point, a reader asked me how ground fighting changes the landscape of fighting, both in Muay Thai Boran vs. Bokator and in MMA. This is my take on the dominance of ground fighting. A good street fighter, a tough biker dude like Tank Abbot or Sony Barger, could probably hold his own against most strikers. If you see the youtube clips of the bare knuckles pro fighter named Kimbo (I think that is his name). He is a huge, strong, African American guy who makes his living knocking guys out in parking lots. He probably never had any training. And if he went in UFC and got matched with a striker, he could hold his own and might win on a KO because in professional street fighting the goal is to keep the fight short and get a KO. I've done only one of these fights. Coming into it, the mistake I made was in trying to box and move, and win in a later round. I got hit once in the eye, it opened me up, and I realized there is no later. You have to win NOW. I did win. And the fight probably only lasted about twenty-five seconds, but it was too long. So, the answer is a tough street fighter, big and strong, used to going for the knock out would be hard to beat in a ring. The best strategy would be to drag the fight on as long as possible to make him tired. But he would be landing bombs on you the whole time, and that wouldn't be a very pleasant experience. With grappling, the rules change. An untrained grappler stands zero chance against a trained grappler. It's that simple. I pound a bag every day in the gym, but I know if I come against the right street fighter, he could knock me out. But a guy who trains grappling every day would instantly take down an untrained grappler or a street fighter and that would be the end of the fight. The smartest strikers, like Mirco, have learned to escape. He was smart enough to just ignore the grappling and hope to win on a kick KO. And he was smart enough not to try and win on submissions. He learned to avoid the take down and to escape back to his feet. But he had to learn that. You have to train specifically to avoid the grappler. If you look at early UFCs the grappler nearly always won because they always got the take down and then once on the ground, there was no escape for the striker. So, comparing Muay Thai Boran with Bokator, because Bokator has the ground fighting, it is the better fighting art. The issue in Thailand vs. Cambodia right this minute, however, would be that the Bokator school has only been reopened for about five years. So, the guys don't have a lot of fighting experience. When I prepared for my black belt I went out to the village and learned Khmer wrestling with the farmers. I was the first one to do this. The team isn't ready yet to fight all comers. In Thailand there is a lot of interest in MMA now. When I am training there, they all tell me how they would just wait for the shoot and then take the grappler out with a knee to the face. This is ludicrous because their entire game plan rests on a single technique. Yes, if you shoot and run head first into a knee thrown by a pro Muay Thai fighter you will get knocked out. But what if the Muay Thai guy misses? Or what if the grappler deflects the knee with his hand? Or what if he just absorbs the knee? Or, what if he shoots and executes the throw from the waist or the hip? We have played around with this scenario in the gym quite a bit in Bangkok. And anyone who has seen my youtube knows I am no grappler. My shoot looks like an old man bending over to pickup his change. Even with that, I am able to take them down. And of course, once I get on top, I am so much bigger, that is the end of the fight. The throw I usually use to take down a Muay Thai fighter is actually a technique from Muay Thai Boran. You shoot in with your forearm in front of your face. Instead of hitting the hips or thighs, you hit the opponent's shin with the forearm and then scoop his heal with the other hand. To sum up: Bokator is a complete art which, if learned would be a better fighting art than Muay Thai Boran. But at the moment, there are no battle-hardened Bokator guys to fight. And in grappling vs. striking. I believe an untrained striker may stand a chance against a trained striker. But an untrained grappler stands no chance against a real grappler. Grappling would be one of the biggest determinant in who would win between a Bokator guy and a Muay Thai Boran guy. Since Bokator has ground-fighting and Muay Thai Boran doesn't, Bokator would win. To see all of his videos about martial arts, Burma and other countries: http://youtube.com/results?search_query=antonio+graceffo&search=Search --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Tom Howanic" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Cabales Serrada Escrima Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:59:31 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The master that is being spoken of trained under the late GM Angel Cabales. This is really a non-issue since the accused instructor has completely dropped out of Cabales Serrada Eskrima. He does not claim to teach CSE any more. In addition, he does not claim to be associated in any way with the above master. He does however still train in the FMA. Hope this clears things up. tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guro Dennis Servaes" To: Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 8:24 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Cabales Serrada Escrima >I wonder where this gossip comes from? The Cabales Serrada Escrima Academy >is a tough group, and that is the only place to earn a Master's Degree in >Serrada, so I wonder who you are talking about. I started there in 1992, >so do you know something I don't? > Dennis > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2500 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest