Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:24:00 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #151 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Mas Oyama's Bull (Tom Green) 2. Re: Mas Oyama's Bull (jay de leon) 3. Re:The Master (Toma Rosenzweig) 4. Re: Grandmasters (Marc MacYoung) 5. McDojos and grandmasters (Julian Gilmour) 6. Re: McDojos and grandmasters (Ray) 7. Re: Re: Grandmasters (jay de leon) 8. Re: McDojos and grandmasters (jay de leon) 9. Jose (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:51:55 -0500 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Tom Green Subject: [Eskrima] Mas Oyama's Bull Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net See http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22mas+oyama%22+%2B+bull&hl=en&sitesearch=#q=%22mas%20oyama%22%20%2B%20bull&hl=en&sitesearch=&start=10 for a video of Mas Oyama's bullfight. It's hard to tell much about the actual blow from this or other videos available online, but Oyama's student Jon Bluming claims in his autobiography that the horn had been struck several times with a sledgehammer to weaken it prior to Oyama's strike. Whatever really happened, this is a very interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up. Respects, Tom --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:07:06 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Mas Oyama's Bull To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net yikes.  hope the animal activists do not get to read this thread.   still, those kyokushin guys are as tough as they come. --- On Tue, 6/10/08, Tom Green <t-green@tamu.edu> wrote: From: Tom Green <t-green@tamu.edu> Subject: [Eskrima] Mas Oyama's Bull To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 4:51 PM See http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22mas+oyama%22+%2B+bull&hl=en&sitesearch=#q=%22mas%20oyama%22%20%2B%20bull&hl=en&sitesearch=&start=10 for a video of Mas Oyama's bullfight. It's hard to tell much about the actual blow from this or other videos available online, but Oyama's student Jon Bluming claims in his autobiography that the horn had been struck several times with a sledgehammer to weaken it prior to Oyama's strike. Whatever really happened, this is a very interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up. Respects, Tom _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Toma Rosenzweig" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:10:15 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Re:The Master Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net ====================================== From: Toma [the Old One] Main e-Mail: tomawallaikido@earthlink.net MODERN ARNIS, MA-80 & CSSD/SC systems I came across a person doing awesome Modern Arnis and some really great Knife work and his title was: * Couch* ===================================== Wow at last the grand master master ranks make sense to me thank you for you depiction of how it should be. Ranks and belts have always been somthing I struggled to know now it makes total sence. thank you for your words of wisdom. Alex "james jr. sy" wrote: Agree to that Master Lewis. FMA titles were non existent during the early days. The titles just surfaced as late as the 1970s in the Philippines, a time when Arnis/Escrima was being rediscovered by urbanized areas in the country. James Peter Lewis wrote: > Message: 2> Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 11:31:59 -0400> From: Mike Casto > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net> Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: grandmaster (terry and lito)> Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net> > > Another is this.> > Generally, I don't equate "master" to "master of the system/art." I> equate "master" with "master instructor." To me, a "master instructor"> is a "teacher's teacher." It is equivalent to a "grandfather" in a> family. From this perspective, if my students have become instructors> and are teaching their own students then I am a "master instructor."> From this follows "grandmaster" = "great grandfather." I am a "master> instructor's instructor." From this perspective there can be more than> one "grandmaster" in a given system.> > > Mike> Yes. Well put Mike. I also share this view that a 'Master' is a 'teacher's teacher.' It is interesting that, in a past era, there were no titles within the martial arts and the warrior's skill and reputation was what determined status. Clearly, there are perceived benefits for a practitioner with a 'high level' title as these demand higher fees and perceived status within the arts. My own international research conducted last year suggests that approximately 87% of practitioners of the FMA are not interested in grades, status or trophies. So much for grand titles and tournament trophies! Gumagalang Peter --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:51:37 -0600 Organization: No Nonsense Self-Defense Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Grandmasters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: "james jr. sy" > Agree to that Master Lewis. FMA titles were non > existent during the early days. The titles just > surfaced as late as the 1970s in the > Philippines, a time when Arnis/Escrima was being > rediscovered by urbanized areas in the country. Actually I'll argue that 'titles' and other indicators regarding rank started surfacing as an answer to the pressure put upon martial artists by people asking "Are you a black belt?" What people don't understand is that Kano (the founder of Judo) borrowed the belt system from waterpolo teams; this when he got Judo accepted into the Japanese school system. It wasn't so much a badge of distinction as a tracking methodology for the system. An instructor could walk into any school in the country, see a kid that he'd never met before and at a glance know where the student was in the system. That isn't proof of deadly skill, that's bookkeeping. When karate was introduced into Japan in the 1920/30s, the belt system was adopted there too. When the 'karate craze' hit the US in the 70's, a 'black belt' was commonly interpreted to mean you were a 'master.' As such the question commonly asked by non-martial artists was "Do you have a black belt?" People from beltless systems -- myself included -- were hard pressed to explain that ranking system didn't apply. Thing was the only thing the public knew was black belt. As a result, many systems that were before rankless began to adapt colored sashes and grand titles. Another variation came about when people marketing themselves started talking about dan ranking, now the question became "What degree?" Much of the rank inflation and made-up titles started appearing around that time. Now it isn't enough to be a guru, you have to be a maha-uber-datu-pendekar. The interesting point to note however, is while the emphasis on rank/title may have started in the US, the door swings both ways ... people from other countries started hanging these absurd titles on themselves not only to come to the US and sell their products to the white boys, but also at home. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Julian Gilmour To: Escrima Digest Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:34:20 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] McDojos and grandmasters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all Do I run a McDojo? For a while last year, about 8 months, (until relocation stopped the arrangement) I taught a couple of guys from work. I taught at my home, mainly empty hand, plus a little bit of knife defence (making it very clear that 30 miles an hour is the only sure defence). They did it mainly for fitness, but loved hitting pads, and each other, (I had them sparring as much as possible, once they had basic movement). They knew my exact ranking and indeed one of them had done the beginners' course at my gym, and so had seen some of the instructors teach. They really enjoyed it and I left them under no illusion that they were becoming unstoppable fighting machines. They were also fully aware of my ranking. They thought I was PLENTY good enough to teach them, but I told them that after 5 years or so that, in my own words, I was an 'OK' martial artist, at best. (This list has instilled humility). The thing is, I am only a brown belt. This does allow me to attend instructor camps at the Bob Breen Academy, where I have trained for 6 years, but normally a black belt is required. I've taught the kids at the gym, but never adults, and I charged the guys basically the price of a cheap group lesson from their point of view - £10 each for a 2-hour private. Therefore this was far from a money-making scheme for me, and they were not given any false claims of me turning them into the next Anderson Silva. Over the years I've trained with the likes of Guro Inosanto, Ajarn Chai, Sifu Marc McFann, Tuhon Bill McGrath, Ibu Rita Suwanda, Bob Spour and others. I've passed on my modest knowledge just doing a bit of rooftop training that they enjoyed and got them fit, and I enjoyed because I could pass on the passion that I feel for martial arts to others. Does this mean I've been running a McDojo, as I can't back up claims that I'm a deathmatch-fighting unstoppable killing machine? FWIW they think I'm a great teacher, even if they're not quite ready for the special forces. Your thoughts? As for titles, the only Grandmaster that I readily recognise is Grandmaster Flash, the Darth Vader of the slide fader. 'The Message' was the first record I ever bought ;) Strike from the void Julian _________________________________________________________________ All new Live Search at Live.com http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000006ukm/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] McDojos and grandmasters Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:16:12 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Not in my book. Fwiw... Grandpoohbah Ray "Mr. Deathmatch-fighting unstoppable killing machine" Terry On Jun 11, 2008, at 9:34 AM, Julian Gilmour wrote: > Does this mean I've been running a McDojo, as I can't back up claims > that I'm > a deathmatch-fighting unstoppable killing machine? --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:16:25 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Grandmasters To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net As a youth, I trained and achieved rank in two "belted" systems in the Philippines--Kodokan judo and shorin-ryu (Latino Gonzales/PHICKAJU system).  In both systems, they only had white, green, brown and black belts.   However, I witnessed a demo by Yuiche Hirose, 6th Dan official representative of the Kodokan to the Phil, who wore a red and white belt.  That is when I realized there were belts higher than a black belt.  Manong Cacoy mentions training with Hirose in his book "Eskrido."   One day while training at shorin-ryu, we saw a Caucasian guy (I believe he was German) getting private lessons, wearing a yellow belt.  We were fascinated by the yellow belt, until somebody explained to us that it was actually a lower ranked belt.   Coming to the US in the early 70's, I trained in several belted systems.  At that time, they were pretty consistent in the belt rankings--white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, black.  Logically, the colors progressed from lighter to darker.   Now in addition to the proliferation of additional colors, there is no rhyme or reason to the order of the colors. You have stripes running along the belts, as well as at the end of the belts, sometimes with duct tape. For little dragons and juniors, you have camouflage belts, tiger belts, and paisley belts (ok, just kidding on the last one).   If you are a dojo owner, please do not send me nasty emails.  I am the recipient of the kind largesse of dojo owners who allow me to teach out of their dojos/dojang.  I understand the realities of running a business, and it is not my intention to bite the hand that feeds me.   The reality though is, I look at most commercial dojos in the US as "parallel universe" of the dojos in okinawa, japan and the philippines in the 60's and 70's, separated by time, distance and culture.   They will never approximate the dojos of yesteryears, (and in some aspects probably should not) but hopefully, they will appropriately serve the (martial arts) needs of the current generation.   Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com --- On Wed, 6/11/08, Marc MacYoung <marcmacyoung@earthlink.net> wrote: From: Marc MacYoung <marcmacyoung@earthlink.net> Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Grandmasters To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wednesday, June 11, 2008, 8:51 AM > From: "james jr. sy" <james_sy_jr74@yahoo.com> > Agree to that Master Lewis. FMA titles were non > existent during the early days. The titles just > surfaced as late as the 1970s in the > Philippines, a time when Arnis/Escrima was being > rediscovered by urbanized areas in the country. Actually I'll argue that 'titles' and other indicators regarding rank started surfacing as an answer to the pressure put upon martial artists by people asking "Are you a black belt?" What people don't understand is that Kano (the founder of Judo) borrowed the belt system from waterpolo teams; this when he got Judo accepted into the Japanese school system. It wasn't so much a badge of distinction as a tracking methodology for the system. An instructor could walk into any school in the country, see a kid that he'd never met before and at a glance know where the student was in the system. That isn't proof of deadly skill, that's bookkeeping. When karate was introduced into Japan in the 1920/30s, the belt system was adopted there too. When the 'karate craze' hit the US in the 70's, a 'black belt' was commonly interpreted to mean you were a 'master.' As such the question commonly asked by non-martial artists was "Do you have a black belt?" People from beltless systems -- myself included -- were hard pressed to explain that ranking system didn't apply. Thing was the only thing the public knew was black belt. As a result, many systems that were before rankless began to adapt colored sashes and grand titles. Another variation came about when people marketing themselves started talking about dan ranking, now the question became "What degree?" Much of the rank inflation and made-up titles started appearing around that time. Now it isn't enough to be a guru, you have to be a maha-uber-datu-pendekar. The interesting point to note however, is while the emphasis on rank/title may have started in the US, the door swings both ways ... people from other countries started hanging these absurd titles on themselves not only to come to the US and sell their products to the white boys, but also at home. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:20:32 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] McDojos and grandmasters To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I don't remember you writing no book. --- On Wed, 6/11/08, Ray <EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net> wrote: From: Ray <EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Eskrima] McDojos and grandmasters To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wednesday, June 11, 2008, 11:16 AM Not in my book. Fwiw... Grandpoohbah Ray "Mr. Deathmatch-fighting unstoppable killing machine" Terry On Jun 11, 2008, at 9:34 AM, Julian Gilmour wrote: > Does this mean I've been running a McDojo, as I can't back up claims > that I'm > a deathmatch-fighting unstoppable killing machine? _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: Eskrima-Digest Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:58:57 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Jose Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Fightin’ Jose’ By Perry Gil S. Mallari The Manila Times June 12, 2008 He was a doctor, a novelist, a poet, a sculptor, a painter and a lothario. He was also a swordsman, deadly with both rapier and arnis sticks; a highly regarded pistol marksman; a body builder with experience in wrestling and judo; a freedom fighter and a wanted man. Our National Hero Dr. Jose Rizal, hailed, as “The Pride of the Malay Race” was a Renaissance man. Yes, Rizal honed his brawn and his blade as much as he did his wit and his word. Rizal did not become a superb physical specimen overnight. He was frail and sickly as a child. This probably prompted him to study the art of buno (wrestling) from his uncle Manuel to strengthen his body. This skill he once used to defeat a bully in class. Rizal’s love for the combative arts stayed with him until he became an adult. At 18-year-old, in a letter to Enrique Lete, dated November 27, 1879, he says, “My hands are shaking because I have just had a fencing bout; you know I want to be a swordsman.” As a student in Madrid, he practiced fencing and pistol shooting with the Paterno brothers namely Pedro, Maximino and Antonio. Rizal was a pretty good shot as indicated by his correspondence to Antonio Luna that narrates, “Speaking of shooting, I am sending you a target containing 10 bullet holes; it was seven and a half meters from me. At twenty-five meters I can put all my shots into a twenty-centimeter target.” Rizal had also dedicated himself to weightlifting and bodybuilding. While he was in Germany, Dr. Maximo Viola recalled Rizal lifting great weights under an unaccustomed diet in an effort to defeat the best weightlifter of one gymnasium. Unorthodox his approach maybe, Rizal succeeded in the said goal. In his brief sojourn in Japan in 1888, he witnessed and learned the art of judo—newly created at that time by martial arts master and educator Dr. Jigoro Kano. Rizal later taught judo to the members of the Kidlat [Lightning] Club, which he founded in Paris. In London, Rizal trained in boxing with the sons of his friend Dr. Reinhold Rost. Rizal’s patriotism was evident even in his study of martial arts. While being adept in Western swordsmanship and pistol shooting, he made sure that he was also an expert in arnis, the indigenous fighting art of his Motherland. Arnis, which uses weaponry training as a primary mode of instruction was among the subjects Rizal taught to the boys of Dapitan during his last days. Rizal nearly fought three real duels in his lifetime. The first was when he challenged Antonio Luna for uttering unsavory remarks against his love interest Nellie Boustead. The second was when he challenged his bitter enemy of the pen, the Spanish scholar Wenceslao E. Retana for writing a malicious article stating that his family was ejected from their lands in Calamba for not paying the rent. The third was when he challenged the Frenchman Juan Lardet for accusing him of cheating in a business deal in Dapitan. His duel with Luna was aborted when the latter apologized and through the intervention of his compatriots in Madrid. Retana, however, simply backed off after learning of Rizal’s fighting prowess. The Spaniard later became an avid biographer of the national hero. Like Retana, Lardet retracted his allegation and declined the challenge after being advised by Captain Ricardo Carcinero, the Spanish commandant of Dapitan, who knew well of Rizal’s fighting abilities. It was perhaps Rizal’s deep knowledge of the martial arts that prompted him to exercise extreme prudence in plotting the steps of the Philippine Revolution. This was evident in his dialogue with Dr. Pio Valenzuela, an envoy of Andres Bonifacio’s Katipunan that says, “I will never lead a disorderly revolution and one which has no probability of success because I do not want to burden my conscience with an imprudent and useless spilling of blood; but whoever leads a revolution in the Philippines will have me at his side.” Jose Rizal was indeed the personification of the term “brain and --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest