Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:48:21 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #163 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Pula-Pula (Lapu-lapu vs. Ferdi, M.) (Marc MacYoung) 2. Magellan/fencing skills/limp Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #162 - 7 msgs (Pananandta@aol.com) 3. Lapu2x VS. Ferdi M. (GatPuno@aol.com) 4. magellan (jay de leon) 5. Lapu-Lapu (Andrew Krebs) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 23:21:54 -0600 Organization: No Nonsense Self-Defense Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Pula-Pula (Lapu-lapu vs. Ferdi, M.) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: jay de leon > Historians have pointed out to take Pigafetta's > chronicles with a grain of salt. After all, he > was > writing for a public audience then (including > his > benefactor the queen) and his writing could have > been slanted. > > For example, he said they were attacked by a > force of 1500 men. If so, it should have taken a > matter of minutes for the natives to finish the > Spaniards off (49 men on shore). Only eight > Spaniards were actually killed, including > Magellan > and his bastard son. > > One can even conclude that either the natives > were > inept or the Spaniards fought with extraordinary > skill > and courage. Which may be what Pigafetta wanted > to portray. Or one can take into consideration the technological and strategic imbalance. Omitting the beefcake factor in the movie 300 (with a lot of half naked guys running around) the reason the Greek hopolite soldiers were able to respond "Then we will fight in the shade" to the Persian threat of "Our arrows will darken the skies" is the fact that the lighter persian bows couldn't penetrate the heavy armour and shields of the hopolite heavy infantry. The combination of tactics and equipment allowed them to safely weather the storm of arrows. (Oh yeah, history talks about the 300 Spartans, but forget the 1200 other Greek warriors who also opted to stay at Thermopylea). So what does a Hollywood movie have to do the Magellen's death due to the superior fighting style of the Filipinos? Putting aside nationalistic pride, legends and propaganda about killing the first explorer of the Spainish -- who occupied the Philippines for over 300 years -- your looking at something that bears a really close resemblence to those arrows bouncing off hopolite armour. What historical revisionists want to ignore is the fact that 'bamboo spears' would have a hard time A) out ranging the Spainish muskets and crossbows B) penetrating the armour and puffed/slashed clothing. C) were facing Spainish lances (pole arms/spears) that weren't being thrown. Pigafetta's comments are not out of line with the strategies of Renaissance warfare -- especially the standing back and shooting muskets/crossbows and using lances to keep enemies away. Read that again, you use a lance to keep an opponent out of sword distance. A compact group, many of them holding lances, is a hard nut to crack. Lancers protected the crossbow and musketeers. If you lose your lance (which is a two handed weapon, you THEN pull your sword) You might want to pick up various titles by the Ospry Publishing group Conquistadors http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=Q3577 Lanceknecths http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S2431 Medieval Armies http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=Q2457 Pavia http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=P5047 These will explain the armour and the tactics that were being used in Europe at the time. And quite frankly in light of this technological and tactical superiority it's not surprising small numbers routinely fought natives and won. I have studied historical warfare and tactics for much of my adult life -- not just European either. As such I can tell you that individual prowess with a blade -- while important in individual dueling -- doesn't mean much in the context of facing a better equipped and better tactically organized group. Ask the people who fought the Romans and Alexander. Also ask the native people who were under the various European empires. And quite frankly the sucessful rebellion and emancipation of these 'colonies' was as much based in the economic problems and other problems faced by the colonizing country (e.g. the fact that the Spainish American War was happening and the Spainish Empire power had been on the decline since the Napoleonic Wars) as it did of native fightig forces against the occupiers. People really don't understand the Western military machine of the time of the Age of Imperialism. Not the least of which was how organized tactics and superior equipment kicked the snot out individual -- but functionally naked warriors -- around the world. (Check out Cortez and the Aztecs). Until you've gone up against a fully equipped western man at arms, you have NO idea how hard it is to take one out. He's not only a skilled fighter, but he's got armour to cover his mistakes. In Renaissance warfare, specialized five man teams were used to take out ONE man-at-arms. And each team member carried a specialized weapon (kind of like the Japanese police teams to disarm samurai). These guys were tough nuts to crack, take a look at the size of the Spainish empire. Whether it was 500 warriors, a 1000, 1500 or 2000, the fact that 50 guys weren't slaughtered to a man shows that technology and tactics, not individual prowess is what saved their butts. It wasn't that the natives were inept, it was that they were outgunned, out armoured and throwing yourself against a pike line while half-naked wasn't something that anybody who doesn't want to get slaughtered would want to do. You don't want to trade stabs when you are bare chested with your bamboo spear against a guy in armour and with a lance. You'll lose ... that's if the guy he's protecting hasn't put a musket ball or a crossbow bolt in your chest already. Is it possible that Pigetta's version is biased? Of course. But so is the idea that it was anything other than fighting a rearguard action through water around your legs, a lost lance, a spear in the leg and a mob attack before he could get his blade out that nailed Magellen. However, in light of how often Magellen's death is brought up as 'proof' as to the effectiveness of the FMA, I think this goes past just 'bias.' The added stories of his great sword mastery and footwork just go to show that. Wow, if he was a great duelist wouldn't that make his death a greater victory? And more importantly, a demonstration of the superiority of the FMA? If it isn't propaganda, then it is at least a great marketing pitch ... especially because there ain't that many people around who can show what a handful the western fighting man was at the time. And oh yeah, just in case you're wondering what qualifies me to talk about this, I do have training in FMA. But that isn't my only source of blade experience. I not only have training in Western swordsmanship, but I have a full suit of 16th century period armour. I've fought for over 20 years using 'live steel' in unchoreographed bouts. I require my students to be trained using real swords to drive home the importance of footwork and the importance of NOT taking a hit. So when I talk about how difficult it is to take out an armoured opponent, it's from a been there, done that perspective. But I was fully armoured and equipped. Not half naked while holding weapons made of local materials and facing coordinated group action by better equipped fighters. M --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 02:47:21 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Magellan/fencing skills/limp Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #162 - 7 msgs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi James (Sy), You probably read the same book I did. I borrowed the book from the late Prof. Vee back in 1978. Magellan was a veteran soldier and was wounded in North Africa as a result of which he walked with a limp. He got in trouble because he was accused of taking some money from his King's coffers - an accusation that was never proven. During his time, Spanish fencers were much feared in Europe. Indeed, the first fencers to come into prominence in Europe were the Spaniards but then Spanish instructors started teaching footwork that required stepping at intersections of lines of geometric figures. The footwork became an exercise in geometry but the Spanish fencers were very precise. During his time, a number of books in fencing were published in Europe (I have photocopies of most of them.) Those who have experience practicing on sand (such as the seashore) will know that your quick footwork on solid ground such as a hard surface will be slow on sand that is constantly being washed by the sea. When you step forward/backward, your shift in weight to the front/rear foot will cause you to sink. Hence, part of your forward/backward movement is lost - thus decreasing your forward/backward speed. Worst, you might even lose your balance. The characteristic of the surface will greatly affect footwork. For example: Roger Federer has never won the French open (3 -time champion is Spaniard Rafael Nadal) which is on clay courts but Federer's footwork is impeccable on grass (Wimbledon) and on hard surfaces (US and Australian Opens). By the way, Wimbledon which is on grass starts today. I do Chinese long pole forms. One have movements that I cannot do on grass but can be easily executed on clay surface. If I insist on doing these movements on grass I will risk twisting my ankles. The book that I read about Magellan stated that he was cut in the leg then was pounced on by the natives. As Magellan was getting cut down, Pigafetta was already out to sea - on a boat writing his version of the Battle of Mactan. Best to all. APM James Comments: It's not impossible for Magellan to have superb Fencing skills. Spain after all was a superpower at that time and some of the best Renaissance Fencers came from Spain. However, itis doubtful that his footwork was superb since Magellan injured his leg in a battle while in the service of Portugal. When he went to the Philippinesunder the service of Spain, Magellan already had limps between strides. This information has been omitted in most histories about Magellan which only focused on his exploits in the Philippines. If we go cherck on any schoo ltextbooks approved by the Philippine Department of Education, Culture,and Sports (DECS) wewill find none which adhere tosuch a version. It would help if you can ask your Pinoy sources where they got this version. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) --__--__-- Message: 3 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:42:06 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Lapu2x VS. Ferdi M. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Kapatid Jay and George and Everyone, Glad to be back, actually this is my first weekend free, I am out of job for the moment, I decided to resigned from Dolphin Stadium, to be full time Chef Instructor at Le Cordon Bleu College of Culinary Arts Miami, where I was adjunct Chef Instructor for 4 months already, I finally find my self enjoying teaching. So here it is I finally agree to join them full time after my Garimot Summer Retreat on July 14, 2008. Reminders to everyone JULY 11,12,13 is our 8th Annual Garimot Summer Retreat at TY Park, Holywood, Florida. for detail: www.garimot.com On the Lapu-lapu's account wrote by Zaide's is one of the Ministry of Education Culture & Sport accepted text to teach in High School, since is not mis-leading to written facts based on World History. A lot of book now published about Philippines History that already have been revised and and been alter from the old text, and it become more confusing text than the old revision. I dont know which one to believed, so I stick to Zaide's version, is the closest to the text I found in Britanicas version. In term of what really happen then between fall of Magellan from Lapu-lapu's tribes is still based on heresay, since Pigafetta's himself run or escape for his life too. So there is a chance that he might not even eyewitness the battle. We have to admit, his version is clear that he wrote Mageallan was killed in the battle of Mactan by a surprised attacks by hundreds of natives headed by Raja Lapu-lapu no further elaboration on what really detailed face off. Assumably later a lot of writers revised the text,and add their own speculative theory of what really happen then. But who are we to contradicts this facts, we are not even sure if Lapu-Lapu is even there on the shore when the battled occur. Numerous times to our Philippines history written by local writer and foreign writers that the Filipino natives is expert on the used of bow and arrow. This is the only certain facts even Magellan was killed by arrow. But the Filipino Martial Arts version want to make sound more interesting version and more in favor or leaning towards in favor of the blades, this is totally biases if I may say. That the reason whay I dont want to touch this issue, becaused my real me can't control to state my view of this claimed. Now they even have a system claimed that direct descendant of Lapu-lapu? Excuse me brother but give me a friggen break.!!! Okay, I think I have to stop here "Kaptid Jay, George and all, my blood is starting to rise again, let me cool down and go back to the real issue. Later, Kapatid Abon Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com > > Kapatid Abon: >   > Good to see you post.  Frankly, I have forgotten > Zaide's version by now.  Too many intervening > years and too many blows to the head, lol. >   > Ray and I were just having fun speculating on > Lapu-Lapu's participation/non-participation in the > battle.  Slow news day, you know. >   > Hope you are well, and busy with your upcoming > seminars. >   > Jay de Leon > www.filipinofightingartsintl.com > ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 08:38:10 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] magellan Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net   from the battlefields of portugal, to the shores of mactan, to the conquests of alexander the great, to thermopylae-- we just cannot resist this topic, can we?   great posts, everyone.   i wonder how long it will be before somebody mentions magellan again, and we all jump on the thread?   not bad for a slow news day, eh, Ray?   Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:03:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Krebs To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Lapu-Lapu Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net How many years ago was that battle? Because it was so long ago, that's why nobody really knows. When I studied at P.U.P. in Sta. Mesa, they said Lapu-Lapu killed Magellan himself. Magellan was trying to divide and conquer. Every tribe had a differnet leader. Magellan made friends with a few tribes. There were only 300 spaniards. When he went with some of the other tribes, they opened fire, raining down with arrows. Magellan did retreat. Who knows about fancy footwork. That may be true The portrait looks like they were both standing in the water. But as far as I know, Lapu-Lapu killed Magellan. It's a contraversy like christtianity. The bible was made years after Jesus died. All that was left was memmories of the past. And those people wrote it down. After awhile, things get distorted because people don't remember exactly. Andrew L. Krebs Perrysville,OH,U.S.A. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest