Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 02:48:21 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #169 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. "Nap" Grandmaster Nap Fernandez: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #168 - 5 msgs (Pananandta@aol.com) 2. Re: Re: Pula-Pula (Lapu-lapu vs. Ferdi, (jay de leon) 3. martial arts and responsiblity (maurice gatdula) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:44:43 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] "Nap" Grandmaster Nap Fernandez: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #168 - 5 msgs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I am sorry to hear about Nap's condition. He was my younger aikido brother at the Philippine Aikido Club under Sensei Ambrosio Gavileno. I will pray for him. APMarinas Sr. Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:56:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Punong Guro Steven Dowd To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Grandmaster Fernandez Yaw-Yan Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net For your Information: June 23, 2008 - Grandmaster Nap Fernandez the Founder of Yaw-Yan is in the hospital from a stroke, one side of his head is immobile. To find out more visit the FMAdigest main page or visit: http://www.fmadigest.com/Special-Announcements/announcement.htm Respectfully **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 00:06:48 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Pula-Pula (Lapu-lapu vs. Ferdi, To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "And here it is, the Filipino Martial Arts are NOT the ulitmate blade fighting system in the universe."   Just as we all trot out our Magellan versions, you have to trot out your old familiar refrain.   For most (real) Filipino historians, FMA is probably not even a footnote when looking at the historical enigma of Magellan's death in the Phil.  Knowledgeable writers steer clear of the "national hero" angle, the superiority of FMA, and related puffery.   You are right in that new overzealous converts, marketeers and current FMA practitioners claiming to be descendants of Lapu-Lapu have glommed on to this historical event for their self-serving purposes.    Other than that minority (in my estimation), there is no conspiracy to create a sacred cow out of this event.    On the other hand, I find it incongruous that the same event can now be the launching pad to point out that FMA are not the ultimate blade fighting system in the universe.  I believe the Jedi Knights hold that distinction.  Or maybe the Knights Templar of long ago.    Whoever, many of us concede your point.   Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com     --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Marc MacYoung wrote: From: Marc MacYoung Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Pula-Pula (Lapu-lapu vs. Ferdi, To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 3:41 PM > From: tim > the spanish conquest strategy of using the > natives to battle their rivals is what enabled > their success. it wasn't the same pike-and-shot > strategy that enabled them to dominate the > battlefield in europe while the other countries > adjusted. > tim Of course, European "empire builders" used the fragmentation and tribalism of the people in areas they gained control of. Make friends with one group and use them to attack another is a strategy as old as humans, the Romans were experts at it. On both of the American contienents it was a given strategy. The African slave trade was based on it. The Iraquois used it to build their 'empire.' Chinese used it to keep the nomads squabbling among themselves outside the Wall for generations. Like a trident, that was one prong of a multi-prong strategy that was used to conqueor. So what? That's claiming that's the reason the Phillipines fell to the Spainish is like saying you wouldn't have gotten stabbed if the guy had been using a spear instead of a trident. No, the thrust is what counts, not whether you have three holes in your chest or one. I'm going to mix metaphors here. Let's talk about the elephant sitting ing the middle of the room*. An elephant that is also a sacred cow**. And here it is, the Filipino Martial Arts are NOT the ulitmate blade fighting system in the universe. The simple fact of the matter is that their ain't NO such critter. Because they were developed to work under SPECIFIC circumstances, they ALL have strengths and weaknesses. Yet, given the circumstances, these arts are amazingly effective. Ain't nobody saying they aren't. What I am saying is that a whole lot of silliness arises from not just believing that there is an ultimate blade system, but outright lies, misinformation and fanaticism. What's more is the circumstances that made these arts effective changed over time. New factors, new technologies, influences, fads and personal preferences all cause change. What you're doing now ISN'T what was being done 20 years ago, much less 400 years ago. Keep both of these elements in mind because they are VERY much underlying factors in the amount of BS that is made up about the FMA. And that ISN'T made up from people outside the art trying to criticize the FMA, it's made up from those who are in the inside, trying to market it. Yes, I said market it. Although another way of looking is what you see with religious converts, who tend to be more fanatical about his 'new' faith than people who grew up with it. And this includes the person trying to 'prove' his new faith is superior in all ways to everything else. You get some really weird and extreme interpretations as the new convert tries to 'out do' everyone else on issues of faith ... including conflicts in doctrine. I use this last analogy to point out that 'converts' to the FMA -- who are indeed really excited because they've found such a cool system -- often want to take the idea to an extreme. They want to believe that these systems ARE the ultimate blade fighting system in the universe. And hey, straight up, as a personal fighting system, the FMA are purdy durned good. But, there is a HUGE difference between personal fighting styles and military equipment, tactics and strategy. This is another one of those things 'converts' to the martial arts in general tend to forget. But since people want to believe what they are doing is a 'warrior art' this becomes an issue that they have to come up with all kinds of cockamammy ideas to ignore this reality -- including trying to rewrite and reinterpret history to make their new faith the 'ultimate.' So here you have someone who wants to believe that he has found the ultimate blade fighting system. But how do you (and this is a generic 'you') reconcil this belief with the fact that the Philippines were occuppied by the Spainish for 350 or so years? Because ...'oh no, that would mean it isn't the ultimate blade fighting system! EEEK!" The answer is simple. You decry the strategy of divide and conqueor, dismiss the importance of superior armour and tactics on the battlefield, bemoan the presence of guns and cannons" and say "if they didn't have those things we would have won" (spear vs. trident). But what's more is you start making up stories about the one you did win. Again, let me remind readers this is a generic 'you,' but it applies to both to those marketing the FMA as the ultimate blade art or the convert who wants to believe the are the ultimate blade art. You make Magellen into a deadly swordsman and duelist so his death is a greater victory. You assign his death the the fighting prowess of one man. You invent nationistic legends about utterences of that same man based on historic events (Do you really believe the tribesmen assumed that there was going to be the Spainish conquest 40 years later? Or would it be more realistic to believe that they just figured it was just another battle in tribal warfare?). You challenge the idea of disparty of force by saying the historical reports are inaccurate and saying that anyone who questions that is implying that the Filipino warriors were incompetent. Thereby redirectiong the conversation away from a sacred cow and into a personal "Are YOU insulting?" You ignore the difference between a personal fighting style/dueling system and organized, battlefield tactics and equipment while still clinging to the sacred cow that your system is actually a warrior system. Then, to further explain the 350 years of occupation you start claiming "But we took the BEST out of their system and incorporated it into ours, that's why we eventually beat them" I have been on this list a very long time. I do read the digest version every time I get it. I have seen again and again everything that I have mentioned above presented on this list. Are the FMA good and effective PERSONAL fighting systems? You betcha. Are they REALLY good for fighting against an unarmoured opponent? Man they are REALLY good. But the truth is -- and I say this from a person who's been through a lot of violence -- when it comes to personal fighting, it ISN'T the system. It is the individual. On the battlefield, it is the tactics and equipment. In a conquest it is the organization of the fighting force, the culture/economy/organization behind the fighting force,economic benefit for those who side with you, the stragtegies of religious conversion, taking territory gradually, and divide and conquor. Those strategies have been what empires have used throughout history. Why? Because those are more important than individual prowess. Don't believe me? Go out and ask a history teacher Bringing this back to the effectiveness of the FMA. What I am going to suggest is that you CANNOT accruately understand the limits of your art until you've gone up against someone who is proficient in their art. And this is not a generic you, it is a specific. You simply have no basis of comparison. Do you want to see some of the complications faced by the warriors on Lapu Lapu's side? Go to an SCA or ARMA convention and see if you can get someone to spar you. You without any armour and him WITH armour (do yourself a favor and avoid using real steel). You'll quickly discover that facing someone from a different style is a big challenge. Now in case anyone wants to get snarky about this post, realize that I'm NOT badmouthing the FMA, I'm NOT saying that Western bladesmanship is the ultimate. What I AM saying is that you really need to realize that there is NO ultimate blade system when it comes to personal combat and believing that knowing personal combat strategies automatically translates into effectiveness on the battlefield is a lie. A lie promoted by salesmen and true believers. So when you hear someone start going off in that direction, know what you're hearing. If you're going to talk about history, talk about history (like Ray posted). Don't confuse history with marketing the ultimate martial arts disguised as lies about "We'd have won if only ..." M *To the non-US members that is an idiomatic phrase meaning "A huge issue that not only is nobody discussing, but they are also pretending it doesn't exist. Imagine having a party with an elephant sitting in the middle of the room with everyone pretending that it isn't there -- yet they are basing their actions on moving around it. ** Again an idiomatic phrase, this one meaning a premise that is held sacred and unquestionable. It also implies that ANYTHING that that arises from this sacred idea is by extension also unquestionable. The reason this causes problems is that a lot of misconduct is carried on by people claiming to represent their sacred cow. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:39:39 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] martial arts and responsiblity Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net when i was younger in washington dc, i always admired people like the guardian angels and the fruit of islam (this is the NOI security team), who help clean up streets in areas police dont even like to go. and they do it with no guns, only with their hands and feet, and courage. one thing you will notice that they usually practiced martial arts. i mean, isnt that what we tell our students, that they train so they will never be a victim? i heard before when people said, dont go looking for trouble, but these groups do not look for trouble, they look for trouble...meaning they will step in where other people look the other way or just call 911 to let another person handle it. if anyone here is from washington dc, you might remember mayfair apartments near kenilworth avenue. the FOI got rid of drug dealers completely with their hands and feet and respect, when police with guns could not do it at all. one of the articles, a guy said, dont be stupid. but the answer was, we are not being stupid we are being courage there's a difference. man, that is heavy. how many martial artists who have the skills to save some strangers ass would stand by and dont help, out of cowardice, or because he does not care? in the sacramento GA group, there is people older, even some woman, even some people with no martial arts training at all. you have to respect this person's courage and bravery. i think this is the next level up from training in the martial arts, to get in to come kind of security, even if its just a security guard job or bouncer, or to go all the way with volunteer neighborhood protection groups, military, or police jobs. take a look at the article, im curious about what you think http://www.sacunion.com/pages/education/articles/10006/ http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE7DE123FF935A35752C0A964958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all through many of the conversations we had about mastery of the art, one of the things mising from those discussions is....courage and bravery. martial arts is not technique alone, it is really more than titles and rank and business. when you put yourself in the way of danger to save somebody else behind, this is one of the highest form of martial arts, and one that very very few people will ever see, experience and hold. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest