Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 23:46:00 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #200 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. jorge penafiel's travelogue (jay de leon) 2. (no subject) (Chris Willis) 3. Kali - again (william mcgrath) 4. Re: (no subject) (adam babb) 5. Bowing in the FMA (Julian Gilmour) 6. Re: Kali - again (realitycombat) 7. Re: "Kali" Exposed (Ray) 8. Re: Kali - again (jay de leon) 9. Re: Kali - again (ILDEFONSO ODAL) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 16:31:53 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: totoamy@fuse.net Subject: [Eskrima] jorge penafiel's travelogue Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net   after a little badgering, master jorge penafiel finally finished his article about his recent trip to the philippines, with pictures.    thanks, manong Jorge.   while it is mostly a personal travelogue, there are several FMA-related pictures in the article, including pictures of several list members like James Sy, Jr., etc.   Go check it out.    http://www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com/Articles/penafiel/fast-philippine-t rip.html   Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com   --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 18:06:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Willis To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I am with you on that one Mr. MacYoung. I like the idea of a blade as a defensive weapon, and usually carry one myself. But the Wasp although interesting, is way too much. The legality behind using one of these things even in a bona fide self defense situation has got to be considered. Just the difference between making a slash or a stab for self defense can put a regulary law abiding citizen behind bars. For the military yeah I can see that, but not for the average citizen, probably not for law enforcement, and definitely not security guards. I work security at a college, and have known many people in the field and to think some of them out there might carry this thing is scary. Anyway, just my 2 cents. Peace be the journey C. Stick happens.... --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 19:55:01 -0700 (PDT) From: william mcgrath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali - again Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Is “Kali” appropriate to describe an indigenous blade based Filipino Martial Arts? Etc, et al. > Gosh, is it that time of year already, or has the annual "Kali is the wrong word" argument become a bi-annual event? Also, is this the tenth time this question has come up or are we running into the teens yet? Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath www.TheSwordofFire.com www.pekiti.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:20:32 -0700 (PDT) From: adam babb Subject: Re: [Eskrima] (no subject) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i dont think that if a bear or a shark gets you you probly wont have time to use it --- On Sun, 8/3/08, Chris Willis wrote: > From: Chris Willis > Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Sunday, August 3, 2008, 7:06 PM > I am with you on that one Mr. MacYoung. I like the idea of a > blade as a defensive weapon, and usually carry one myself. > But the Wasp although interesting, is way too much. The > legality behind using one of these things even in a bona > fide self defense situation has got to be considered. Just > the difference between making a slash or a stab for self > defense can put a regulary law abiding citizen behind bars. > For the military yeah I can see that, but not for the > average citizen, probably not for law enforcement, and > definitely not security guards. I work security at a > college, and have known many people in the field and to > think some of them out there might carry this thing is > scary. Anyway, just my 2 cents. > Peace be the journey > C. > > > Stick happens.... > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Julian Gilmour To: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 10:22:17 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Bowing in the FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all I study Inosanto/Lacoste kali in the UK and IIRC my teacher has been training under Guro Inosanto since 1978. We bow to the teacher at the beginning of most of our classes, and it is a slighlty shortened version of a set of movements - and related oracion - that appears in Mark Wiley's book - 'Filipino Martial Culture'. It pictures Guro Inosanto in a sequence of standing and kneeling movements, with the meaning of each 'stance' explained in a poem/oracion. I can't remember it too well, but I think there are specific meanings such as the upturned palm signifying the catching of blood etc. I can't speak for other styles, and some of the instructors at my gym (eg in the the MMA classes) don't insist on it either, but it appears that some bowing definitely goes on, in some FMA circles. Whilst I'm posting, can I also congratulate Roger (I don't know his surname) who I believe, won the heavyweight title at the World Championships in the PI last week, at both single stick and double stick. He is a black belt from my gym, although he now has his own club. Go Roger, heavyweight champion of the world! (although I expect there will never be such a title as 'undisputed' in the martial arts world ;) Strike from the void Julian _________________________________________________________________ Win New York holidays with Kellogg’s & Live Search http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/107571440/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 09:03:04 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: realitycombat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - again Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I agree. I have been training in the Filipino arts for 30 yrs. and all my instructors call it Kali. Whatever you call it, it is not worth the argument. Why cant we focus on the unity of the arts instead of causing problems. Sifu/Guro J Hosch -----Original Message----- >From: william mcgrath >Sent: Aug 3, 2008 9:55 PM >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] Kali - again > >Is “Kali” appropriate to describe an indigenous blade based Filipino Martial >Arts? >Etc, et al. >> > >Gosh, is it that time of year already, or has the annual "Kali is the wrong >word" argument become a bi-annual event? Also, is this the tenth time this >question has come up or are we running into the teens yet? > > >Regards, >Tuhon Bill McGrath >www.TheSwordofFire.com > >www.pekiti.com >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] "Kali" Exposed Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 07:51:10 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The work of Dr. Ned Nepangue and Celestino Macachor is perhaps best to refer to in this touchy area. Ray On Aug 3, 2008, at 9:52 AM, Talibung Antike wrote: > Is “Kali” appropriate to describe an indigenous blade based Filipino > Martial Arts? --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 09:07:50 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - again To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Before y'all jump up and chime in righteously, and this discussion gets heated up again, please allow me to point something out again.   The discussion is not what to call FMA now. I have contended, and many list members have agreed, that the word "kali" is just as valid, correct, righteous, etc. a name as arnis, eskrima and really, anything else within the realm of reason (like an indigeneous term).   The discussion is whether or not the word or the art of "kali" as an FMA existed as the mother art in the olden times in the Philippines.   Talibung Antike is simply contending that in certain areas of the Phil, it is unlikely that the word or art of kali existed.  I believe he talks of areas he is familiar with, either he is from that region or has researched it, or both.   Now, if somebody in the list from another region, say Tawi-Tawi, can produce evidence that in his region, the word and the art existed, then by all means step forward and present your evidence or your hypothesis.    I would not call that causing problems.  I would call that a discussion.  Writers outside the ED forum write about it all the time.   Now, if you want to ban or limit that particular discussion in this forum, I believe that would be Mr. Terry's call.     Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com   --- On Mon, 8/4/08, realitycombat wrote: From: realitycombat Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - again To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 7:03 AM I agree. I have been training in the Filipino arts for 30 yrs. and all my instructors call it Kali. Whatever you call it, it is not worth the argument. Why cant we focus on the unity of the arts instead of causing problems. Sifu/Guro J Hosch -----Original Message----- >From: william mcgrath >Sent: Aug 3, 2008 9:55 PM >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] Kali - again > >Is Kali appropriate to describe an indigenous blade based Filipino Martial >Arts? >Etc, et al. >> > >Gosh, is it that time of year already, or has the annual "Kali is the wrong >word" argument become a bi-annual event? Also, is this the tenth time this >question has come up or are we running into the teens yet? > > >Regards, >Tuhon Bill McGrath >www.TheSwordofFire.com > >www.pekiti.com >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 12:47:06 -0700 (PDT) From: ILDEFONSO ODAL Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - again To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ooooss, saludo at kamayan sa lahat, ...Now, if somebody in the list from another region, say Tawi-Tawi,... I tot dat paro-parong bukid, bukid paro-paro came from Tawi-Tawi, then again what do I know...:) (joke lang po) Can't help staying of the sideline being part of the silent minority, just reading, listening to master jay, sir ray, kuya jorge (bugoy), sir dan (damag) belated happy birthday nga pala, talibung antike, tuhon bill and the rest of the ED/FMA's but I'm a @#%ka to going back to basic forum... Notes that I have, notes that I keep, sometimes I don't remember who it came from or who gave it to me (oh I hate getting old gracefully he-he...). But one thing is true... It does not matter if your a big school, small school, backyard, front yard, no yard, garage dojo, lay low profile/silent dojo, well known or unknown, paid or unpaid. The most important thing is that we all agree that whatever we call it, it is not worth the argument. Let us focus on the unity of the arts instead of causing problems as what Sifu/Guro J Hosch stated. The exact point that Master Jay point out that IT IS FMA! no whats no buts, it is like a car with a different brand name or features, a few or more add-on/options or sometimes even less or what we call basic package but the a car non the least. And oh boy we just love it, that we breath and live it!!! It does not matter if it is chocolate or "tso-ko-la-te" or "hershey" or "choco-nut" sometime it is "panuktsa" or "harnibal" but it is still FMA!!! It is either you love it or leave it... What are Arnis, Escrima and Kali? Arnis, Escrima, Kali, Pangolisi and Garote are only a small number of the many names that are given to the indigenous stick based martial arts. The majorities of Filipino˘s now in The Philippines, refer to the stick based or weapon based arts as Arnis or Escrima. Some westerners when referring to the arts use Kali more. Stick based is the term that we apply more often to these styles of Martial Arts as the beginner is taught with a stick but the movements of most styles can be translated to various conditions of armed or unarmed combat. The stick is a weapon but also it can be simply an extension of the hand and a training tool. A student learns that if you have a stick, a baton, a knife, or a sword you still have two hands. If you have two sticks, two knives, two empty hands etc or even a combination of weapons, the movements of attack and defense are basically the same. It teaches self-defense without having to learn many different patterns for each new weapon, which is different from other Martial Arts. These Arts use economy of learning as well as economy of movement in the execution of their techniques. They also differ from the majority of other Asian Martial Arts as they teach weapon work before empty hand training. The key to Arnis/Escrima is that if you learn one set of attacks and defense well enough, the techniques can be simply translated and "your hand can be your sword", even in a literal sense. What does the word ˇKali˘ mean? There are several words in the Filipino languages that denote a simple stick, ˇgarote˘ or ˇolisi˘ are but two. ˇKali˘ or ˇKahli˘ as it is sometimes written, is in the Visayan language a type of stick, but the stick is used in a certain way or ways, such as it being used as a walking stick and/or for self defense in times of trouble. The term Kali is still used today in the Philippines as an element of some of the more remote terms such as ˇKali-rongan˘ or ˇKali-radman˘ describing the weapons based fighting arts. After the Spanish banned the practice of sword fighting for the Filipino's, certain types of Kali were said to have been preserved by being set in native dance forms known as the ˇSayaw/s at Sinolog˘ or dance/s at fiesta. They could then occasionally hold folk dancing exhibitions to amuse their new rulers. The native weapons and shields were used in these dances and were set to music and drums. Some older Escrimadors state however that the dances have always been used, even before the Spanish came, to teach students the Martial Arts. Much like the katas or patterns that are used today by some styles to teach. COMPARISON - ARNIS, ESCRIMA, KALI There are ca. 90 different languages on the Philippines. These languages are no dialect of a common language, but are so different, that you cannot understand one language if you have originally learned one of the others. The official languages are English and "Filipino", which is based on the "Tagalog"(a language from the Manila-area). Martial Artists from Europe, America, Australia and other countries tried to put an order to this chaos, but they could not manage it because of a lack in speech-knowledge, so there are the wildest combinations. Some names of techniques have a totally other meaning on another island, although the words are spoken and written equally. You can find these wrong expressions even today in some books, video and the internet. Many clubs and organizations use the names Arnis, Escrima and Kali and they "We are practicing Escrima!" Nobody can say this because all the systems and styles are mixed up today. On the Philippines this not of interest for anybody and they call it sometimes Escrima, sometimes Arnis and sometimes Kali. In Europe some organization try to differ these expressions because of political reasons, but the only real difference you can make is to say that Arnis is a northern style, Escrima the central style and Kali the southern style. You will find the most differences in the footwork. All other techniques like hit-direction, disarms, double-stick-techniques a. o. cover nearly all systems. In some there are no double-stick-techniques or no Espada y Daga or no holding-techniques. The other Philippine systems like Dumog, Sikaran Kuntaw, Fraile, Panantukan cannot be put in those AKE-categories so easily, as they are used to complete the other systems, as well as they are independent systems. KALI: Kali is an old expression of the Visaya˘s and Mindanao˘s for blade-weapons, which is not in use any more in the Visayas. On Mindanao it means "Muslim-Dagger". Linguists think, that "Kali" is a mix of the words kamut(hand) and lihog(movement), which was connected to "Kali" - Hand movement. On the islands Pany, Negros and Samar you can also call it Kaliradman, Kalirongan or Pankalikali. Others think, that "Kali" comes from the old Indonesian sword-art "Tjakalele" and some other people draw this back to the Indian war-goddess "Kali", which expressions came under the hinduistic empire "Majapahit" to the Philippines. ARNIS / ARNIS DE MANO: is a combat-style, which evolved after 1764 and which Moro Moro-games, Sinnulog-dances the Spanish, influenced war-art. The expression "arnis de mano" (hand-protector) comes from the Spanish sword-fighters. This style got very fast very popular on the Philippines. ESCRIMA: Philippine edition of the Spanish word "esgrima" (sword-art). This means the overtaking of Spanish sword-techniques into the Kali and Pangamut and was used the first time by Philippine warriors, which served as soldiers to colonial-countries. If I interpret all that is said and done, I say it is all the same, then again, it is just me...:) (special thanks to the original writers of the description above, whoever you are, where ever you may be...) Long live FMA worldwide!!! Till next time... Jun FFALV www.filipinofightingartsintl.com http://martialartsfriends.com/icodale7 http://communitylink.reviewjournal.com/lvrj/shotokankarate ----- Original Message ---- From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 9:07:50 AM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - again Before y'all jump up and chime in righteously, and this discussion gets heated up again, please allow me to point something out again. The discussion is not what to call FMA now. I have contended, and many list members have agreed, that the word "kali" is just as valid, correct, righteous, etc. a name as arnis, eskrima and really, anything else within the realm of reason (like an indigeneous term). The discussion is whether or not the word or the art of "kali" as an FMA existed as the mother art in the olden times in the Philippines. Talibung Antike is simply contending that in certain areas of the Phil, it is unlikely that the word or art of kali existed. I believe he talks of areas he is familiar with, either he is from that region or has researched it, or both. Now, if somebody in the list from another region, say Tawi-Tawi, can produce evidence that in his region, the word and the art existed, then by all means step forward and present your evidence or your hypothesis. I would not call that causing problems. I would call that a discussion. Writers outside the ED forum write about it all the time. Now, if you want to ban or limit that particular discussion in this forum, I believe that would be Mr. Terry's call. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com --- On Mon, 8/4/08, realitycombat wrote: From: realitycombat Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - again To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 7:03 AM I agree. I have been training in the Filipino arts for 30 yrs. and all my instructors call it Kali. Whatever you call it, it is not worth the argument. Why cant we focus on the unity of the arts instead of causing problems. Sifu/Guro J Hosch -----Original Message----- >From: william mcgrath >Sent: Aug 3, 2008 9:55 PM >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] Kali - again > >Is Kali appropriate to describe an indigenous blade based Filipino Martial >Arts? >Etc, et al. >> > >Gosh, is it that time of year already, or has the annual "Kali is the wrong >word" argument become a bi-annual event? Also, is this the tenth time this >question has come up or are we running into the teens yet? > > >Regards, >Tuhon Bill McGrath >www.TheSwordofFire.com > >www.pekiti.com >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest